RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Bill,

Ahhh, you did hear a complaint, you just failed to recognize it. He was shooting in RU class, not because it was his preferred class, but because that was the one closest to his preferred class (MTRD). "ARROW DISCRIMINATION" barred him from his preferred Class and RU was a poor 2nd Choice. Remember the cigarette commercial, "I'd rather fight, than switch!" Rather than not shoot at all, he will shoot in RU, and you don't call this a complaint???

gg

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

The comment I made about all of us being archers first and our particular style being of secondary importance was not in context to our current rule disscussion . It is in reference toward the tendency some bow shooters of all styles have in running down someone else of a different style. This divides our ranks and that is something we need to avoid. ethics are decided by the individual not the equipment they choose. All of the equipment out there is just as capable as any other in the taking of game as well as having fun with. People might be suprised how often laws are proposed to limit or eliminate all shooting sports, including archery. Every time we decide that our way is the only way to participate in our chossen sport we are just helping those that would take away that sport, that is why I believe we need to think of ourselves as archers first and traditionalist or modernist second. Am I against shooting three under ? no not really, I have played around with it enough to know that it is a bit easier to hit well with than split finger and in a competition will more than likely win out. Yes I am aware Howard Hill who was probably the greatest archer who ever lived shot split finger and would have been just as successful today as he was in the past, however none of us are Howard unfortunatly. To me it is much closer to shooting a sight than it is not and in a competition format a sight shooter will normally score higher than a non sight shooter. I think history in regards to the NFAA will prove that. No I am not against another division per say and in fact question if we need to seperate longbows and recurves at all if they are shot the same with the same arrow and method of shooting. I do question that another division that seperates out only the bow from what we now have will be of benifit. They do not seperate a particular brand or type of compound (round wheel versus dual cam or single cam) but how it is shot is seperate ( moveable sight versus fixed sight, release versus fingers) Why not bring whatever stickbow you want and seperate by style of shooting it, three under versus split. On the 1/8 rule for the shelf, they needed some standard and suspect that was an arbitrary figure just as a maximum poundage was. What we need as traditionalist is to stop quibbling about rules and adopt to whatever they are and work at getting enough of us to attend to make it worth while for all of the organizations to listen to us. Whatever the rules are we the traditionalist need to show numbers first and then work on making changes from within.

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Darryl Longbow,

" . . . Running down someone of a different style. This divides our ranks . . ." In this case you're talking about Compound Bows, Crossbows, Recurve Bows, or Longbows. I agree it's the ethics of the hunter/outdoorsman that make us belong to the "Brethren of the Bow", not the type bow.

I agree that " . . .we need to think of ourselves as archers first and traditionalist or modernist second . . ." Except when a traditionalist tell's me to take my longbow and shoot in the Recurve Class, for any reason. Then I am made to think of myself as a modernist, despite the fact that I shoot a Longbow.

The reference to Howard Hill had nothing to do with his split finger style, nor glove style. Instead, it referred to the fact that he used Aluminum arrows. Especially when he kill African big game. Traditionalist would therefore, not let him shoot in the MTRD class, if he used aluminum.

You " . . . question if we need to separate longbows and recurves at all if they are shot with the same arrow and method of shooting . . ." In other words, MTRD RULES. Rhymes with "My way or the Highway" I'm sure you can be more accomdating than that! (grin)

" . . .Why not bring whatever stickbow you want and separate by style of shooting it, three under versus split" I don't like the word "separate", since that is what I am talking about. I would agree with, "Why not bring whatever Longbow/(stickbow) you want and shoot in the Longbow Hunter class, with a separate division for three under and split." (only if and when it was proven that this was really necessary. I know of no evidence to support such a division.

"On the 1/8" rule for the shelf, they needed some standard and suspect that was an arbitrary figure . . ." I disagree. I think it was intended to keep us as close to an English Longbow as they could. A bow, without a shelf or a near shelf, where you shot off your fingers with only a thin leather glove to protect the hand. In this case if you used a shelf at all, then the thin glove leather was all that could be used. If we want to be reinactors with English Longbow period equipment and style we usually join a Reinactors group. If we want to be Target archers, we usually join or shoot in a FITA or NFAA style group. If we are BowHunters we try and think in terms of IBO?

We want to shoot in 3D meets; we would like to avoid English Longbow or reinactors rules. Clout shooting, FITA and other games are fun also, just not 3D.

" . . .Whatever the rules are, we the traditionalist, need to show numbers first and then work on making changes from within . . ." I agree with you completely, if you care to call me a traditionalist, but disagree on which should come first. We may have the numbers right now!! As long as I, and others like me, am made to shoot in any other classe, our numbers go to swell the ranks of those classes. They do not add to the group of Longbow archers at all. I become just another Recurve Shooter, that shoots a Longbow with three under, or Aluminum arrows, or has sealskin on his shelf. When I'm counted after a meet on any data sent to the IBO by a meet director, I am a Recurve shooter. The Traditionalist says my bow does not count; they don’t want to claim me in their numbers, they would much rather have me counted as a Recurve Archer, not in MTRD! The bow is not important, it's the other things, which really count. True or False?

Least we get lost in the shuffle; I am posting the suggested rules for a class within IBO that could include all Longbow Hunters of whatever persuasion for your consideration and discussion.

Take care, gg
LONGBOW HUNTER (LBH)

All I.B.O. rules apply, and the Longbow rules listed below. There is a 90-lb. Maximum bow weight. THIS CLASS ONLY.
1. Competitors shooting in the longbow hunter class will use a longbow defined as: a bow which when strung the string touches only the nocks of the bow. (i.e. a bare bow).
2. No sight, stabilizers, counter balances, cushion plungers or mechanical adjustments shall be permitted.
3. Arrow shafts shall be identical in length, weight and color, except for normal wear. Arrow shafts may be wood, aluminum, carbon, or a combination of aluminum and carbon. All arrows will be Hunting weight (i.e., a minimum weight of 8.5 to 10.1 or greater, grains per pound of draw weight)
4. Strings shall have single color middle serving with no marks.
5. One string nocking point only is permitted.
6. One additional nock locator, which may be snap-on type, tubing, thread or dental floss tied or served on the servings.
7. Arrow should be shot from the shelf or hand with no elevated rest. Only a piece of leather, fur or similar material 1/4 inch thick or less shall be allowed on the arrow shelf.
8. One anchor point only is permitted. (No string or face walking)
9. Must be shot with glove, finger tab, thumb ring or bare fingers only.
10. While shooting the archer shall touch the arrow with the index finger against the nock
11. An archer may shoot using: a Mediterranean release (one finger over and two under the nock); an Apache release, (three fingers under the nock); or an Asiatic release (use of a thumb ring).
12. The White Longbow Stake shall be set half way between the Orange stake and the 3D target.
(As examples. Orange stake at 60 yds, LB stake = 30 yds; Orange = 50 yds, LB = 25 yds; Orange = 40 yds, LB = 20 yds; Orange 30 yds, LB = 15 yds; Orange = 20 yds, LB = 10 yds)
13. Longbow Hunters who normally hunt from longer distances, or who wish to compete from longer distance, (or for any other reason), may elect at registration, to compete against the other competitors in the Longbow Hunter Class by shooting from the yellow stake, or the green stake, or the orange stake.
It is felt that the above rule changes will allow all Longbow Hunters to shoot in the 3D games at a distance which is challenging to them and one they just might use under Hunting Conditions. (The "average kill" occurs at 15 yards or under).
The IBO does an excellent job of offering different Classes for Compound Hunters, based on release, sights, stabilizers, or age and experience. It does a poor job with recurves and does its worst job with the longbow.
* I believe that the primary reason why there is such a problem with the placement of stakes is the absence of a clear system for doing this without a rangefinder. If a meet director, set the Orange stake first, then set the White stake halfway between the Orange stake and the 3D target. (Something that can be done by eyeballing the 3D target and the Orange stake until he finds the middle). Then looking back from the White stake towards the Orange stake he can mentally and visually divide that distance into thirds. The yellow stake would go at the first third (heading back towards the Orange stake), and the Green stake would go at the 2/3's mark. This provides within a yard or two distances in keeping with the original %'s used. Orange is taken as 100%, Green = 90% of that distance; Yellow = 70% of that Distance, and White would now be 50% of that distance. (Has been 60%)