Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

3. Why 125gr pts or greater? If you get a balanced arrow with a 85 gr or 100 gr tip? Is what you want here a minimum weight arrow? If so, say so!

4. Why restrict arrows to wood? Even Howard Hill used an aluminum arrow to kill an Elephant! Why not encourage archers to shoot what flies best for them out of their Longbow? Don't you think Hill, Bear, Pope and others of the past would use the best shaft material they could find. Why not outlaw forgewood and footed shafts also?

8. 1/8" thick shelf? Why should I have to trim my sealskin shelf with an electric razor. If you want to demand that people shoot with an English Longbow then just make this an English Longbow class.

10. Mediterranean release? What happened to Apache (3-under), and Asiatic? Other IBO classes just say have your index finger touching the nock. What's wrong with that?

11. Yellow stake 35 yds? Why increase the distance another five yards? Why not decrease it to 25 yds? If 3D is a game where we practice for hunting and the average kill is under 15 yds, then isnt practicing at 25 yds far enough? If we just want to make it more difficult, why not require all the classes to shoot from the orange stake and have only one stake?

In a thread regarding junior archers, the advisability of fragmenting the juniors into more and more classes was discussed. Here we have just excluded folks by making rules. You either shoot our way with our type arrows, or you don't shoot, seems to be the attitude.

Thanks for reading my tirade, The Grey Ghost, aka Bill Hayden
(I shoot aluminum 580-688 gr arrows with a 26" draw from a 50# bow using a 3pc LB with seal skin shelf using a 3-under draw.)

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Those are the rules that have evolved in a class from competitors input.Those that are in the competitions.
From your comments I assume that you have not competed in IBO events.
I would not argue with your comments and your equipment selection, those are your choices. I even question why the mediterranean, but the rules are those comfortable to the participants.
We did adopt a Hunter recurve class that allows both your differences.Longbow or recurve also.
If you want to play, this class makes it possible.
ken

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Ken,

I can already "play" in any class. The Longbow archer is the only one who may do this. I would prefer to be an official competitor in a class appropriate to my skill level and equipment. Without undue restrictions placed on my style of shooting or Longbow equipment. Why don’t you list, by Bowyers name and model, the longbows that do not meet the IBO standards?

The young compound shooters have taken this FOF (fat old fart) under their wing and almost physically drag me around with them at shoots. Other than these young compound shooters, I have received direct encouragement from only one Longbow shooter. I have been competing since January of 2002, and except for the hot months have averaged one shoot a week till the beginning of this deer season.

Not once at any meet did I have an opportunity for input. I am looking for input to create more beginner friendly rules both for others and myself. I thought the idea was to encourage people to shoot the Longbow, not to discourage them.

Therefore, I am assuming, that all you're input comes from the "cream of the crop" that compete in Championship events. If I counted correctly, I found a total of about 40 out of 145 scores that were 300 or better and could have had a harder course. Was it for these 40 competitors that you moved all Longbow shooter back to 35 yards, and forgot about the rest of us?

Bill

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Ken,

I can already "play" in any class. The Longbow archer is the only one who may do this. I would prefer to be an official competitor in a class appropriate to my skill level and equipment. Without undue restrictions placed on my style of shooting or Longbow equipment. Why don’t you list, by Bowyers name and model, the longbows that do not meet the IBO standards?

The young compound shooters have taken this FOF (fat old fart) under their wing and almost physically drag me around with them at shoots. Other than these young compound shooters, I have received direct encouragement from only one Longbow shooter. I have been competing since January of 2002, and except for the hot months have averaged one shoot a week till the beginning of this deer season.

Not once at any meet did I have an opportunity for input. I am looking for input to create more beginner friendly rules both for others and myself. I thought the idea was to encourage people to shoot the Longbow, not to discourage them.

Therefore, I am assuming, that all you're input comes from the "cream of the crop" that compete in Championship events. If I counted correctly, I found a total of about 40 out of 145 scores that were 300 or better and could have had a harder course. Was it for these 40 competitors that you moved all Longbow shooter back to 35 yards, and forgot about the rest of us?

Bill

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Bill,


I can assure you that we had no control over any of the rule change's ! Well, maybe one hand picked recurve shooter.



Bill Leslie

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Bill (Leslie),

I have never had the privilege to shoot a round with you, but we have met and shot on the same course a time or two. I have the utmost respect for your shooting abilities and know that your name appears seven (7) times on the list of top score's in various IBO events for this last year with four of those as the 1st Place Winner of that event and with a 2nd in the World Championship. I would say your credentials speak for themselves.

If they don't even let you have input into modification of rules and regulations, then they certainly wont pay any attention to a peon like me. The reality is they should be paying attention to both of us. This goes even further towards establishing what I believe is "Ivory Tower" standards which escape the reality of the real world. Looks like the BoD, is saying "let them eat cake", to Longbow Hunters.

Thanks for your reply to this thread, and good luck this coming season on the courses and in the field.

Bill Hayden

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Two points to make here. The board is not going to consider any new classes until the fall meeting. In the operation of the organization and our tournament year, we are in the middle.
This will allow time to see if there is sufficient participation in the HR class to consider further action.
Ghost, please note that your equipment fits this class. It was structured this way to allow both longbows and recurves.It is done this way to allow broader participation. If the numbers are there a further distincion can be made based upon equipment.We will see how that goes.
I will also say that the distances for several classes are under review.(This one included.)
Do we seek input from individuals? Sometimes. Do we ask at local shoots? That is not really practical. Although to say that input is not provided locally would not be true. Any time any of us are at a local shoot, we certainly recieve comments. But, ascertaining the opinions of a class or group of shooters from a local area is unrealistic. Opinions can and are shaped locally sometimes to much from an individual viewpoint.
You have made some very good points. We will present your letter at the spring meeting for review through the season, and discussion at the fall meeting.
I have often looked for that ivory tower thing, just haven't found it yet.
FYI,you and I and every other shooter have opinions that vary greatly on just about any issue that relates to our sport. Sometimes it is not easy to find the most amicable opinion for the greatest number of us.
Six years ago, MTRD shot from the orange stake at an approximate 50 yards max.Most international organizations still compete in their traditional classes at distances of 50 meters. Some use the FITA max of 70 meters. Ours at 35 is by far the shortest. Are those bowhhunting distances? Ceratainly not, but they are used in competition.
ken12

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

I remember the days of the orange stakes in the mtrd. THAT was fun !!!!

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

First let me say how much I appreciate the IBO having a longbow class that is more in line with what the majority of longbow shooters most often actually shoot (wood arrows with a split finger release}This what some see as overly restrictive set of rules allows people insted of equipment or shooting style to compete on an equal basis. As to the distances for this division, this is a game not hunting, I seriously doubt that many of the compound shooters would take a shot at fifty yards while hunting any more than a longbow shooter would at thirty five. They realise it is a game and consider the greater distance a challenge not a handicapp. As to this being a English longbow division I suggest you look at the British Longbow Association if you want to see restrictive rules. The IBO is correct in setting these rules and sticking with them rather than following the lead of earlier organizations such as the NFAA that kept allowing more and more until true traditional shooting was pushed out> There is a place for three under and any arrow so allow those of us who shoot wood and split fingers to have ours. If you are not reciving any encouragement from other longbow shooters (very unusual) perhaps it is because they dont want to change from how they choose to shoot and are tired of always hearing about how it should be from someone who likes to play a different way.

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi BowPro & Darryl Longbow,

The stated mission of IBO is "To promote, encourage and foster the sport of bowhunting; further bowhunter education; act as a political coordinator and liaison for the protection and advancement of bowhunting; - function as a clearinghouse for essential bowhunter information; and - adhere to the basic ideal of the unification of bowhunters."

I fail to see how divisive rules will bring about this unification. Nor do I see how "protective rules" of any class will do so either.

I believe that all Longbow hunters should be encourage to participate in IBO meets without regard to equipment or style. Therefore, I respectfully submitted the following set of rules. These are modified Traditional rules and form a class called "Longbow Hunters". This set of rules is intended to recognize all Longbow Archers, their equipment, and style, under whatever categories it falls. (English, American Indian, Asiatic, African, South American, or Modern American)(English Longbows, American Flat bows, one piece, two piece or three piece, straight limbs, R/D, radical, contemporary, experimental) (Ishi, Thompson, Young, Pope, Hill, Bear, Mary Rose).

LONGBOW HUNTER (LBH)

All I.B.O. rules apply, and the Longbow rules listed below. There is a 90-lb. Maximum bow weight. THIS CLASS ONLY.
1. Competitors shooting in the longbow hunter class will use a longbow defined as: a bow which when strung the string touches only the nocks of the bow. (I.e. a bare bow).
2. No sight, stabilizers, counter balances, cushion plungers or mechanical adjustments shall be permitted.
3. Arrow shafts shall be identical in length, weight and color, except for normal wear. Arrow shafts may be wood, aluminum, carbon, or a combination of aluminum and carbon. All arrows will be Hunting weight (i.e., a minimum weight of 8.5 to 10.1 or greater, grains per pound of draw weight)
4. Strings shall have single color middle serving with no marks.
5. One string nocking point only is permitted.
6. One additional nock locator, which may be snap-on type, tubing, thread or dental floss tied or served on the servings.
7. Arrow should be shot from the shelf or hand with no elevated rest. Only a piece of leather, fur or similar material 1/4 inch thick or less shall be allowed on the arrow shelf.
8. One anchor point only is permitted. (No string or face walking)
9. Must be shot with glove, finger tab, thumb ring or bare fingers only.
10. While shooting the archer shall touch the arrow with the index finger against the nock
11. An archer may shoot using: a Mediterranean release (one finger over and two under the nock); an Apache release, (three fingers under the nock); or an Asiatic release (use of a thumb ring).
12. The White Longbow Stake shall be set half way between the Orange stake and the 3D target. (As examples. Orange stake at 60 yds, LB stake = 30 yds; Orange = 50 yds, LB = 25 yds; Orange = 40 yds, LB = 20 yds; Orange 30 yds, LB = 15 yds; Orange = 20 yds, LB = 10 yds)
13. Longbow Hunters who normally hunt from longer distances, or who wish to compete from longer distance, (or for any other reason), may elect at registration, to compete against the other competitors in the Longbow Hunter Class by shooting from the yellow stake, or the green stake, or the orange stake.

It is hoped that the above rule would allow all Longbow Hunters to shoot in the 3D games at a distance that is challenging to them and one they just might use under Hunting Conditions. (The "average kill" occurs at 15 yards or under).

The IBO does an excellent job of offering different Classes for Compound Hunters, based on equipment differences, or age and experience. It does a poor job with Recurves and does its worst job with the Longbow.

I believe that there is often a problem with the placement of stakes due to the absence of a clear system for doing this without a rangefinder. If a meet director, set the Orange stake first, then set the 3D target then set the White stake halfway between. (Something that can be done by eyeballing the 3D target and the Orange stake until he finds the middle). Then looking back from the White stake towards the Orange stake he can mentally and visually divide that distance into thirds. The yellow stake would go at the first third (walking back towards the Orange stake) and the Green stake would go at the 2/3's mark. This provides within a yard or two distances in keeping with the original % used without any measuring being required. Orange = 100%, Green = 90%; Yellow = 70%, and White would now be 50%

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

If you do not want divisive rules then why even have a longbow class at all, why not simply traditional ? Is there really that much difference between a modern longbow or a hybred longbow and a recurve ? If for the sake of disscussion we wanted to take that even farther why have any divisions at all , why not compounds with scopes shooting against compounds with pin sights and fingers against releases and all of them shooting with/against recurves and longbows. We would certainly have real unity then on paper at least but I dont think this arrangement would make anyone happy. The rules are not divisive only established to provide competition that is on an equal basis for each participant. If on the other hand there is a difference in shooting between a recurve and a longbow, three under versus split finger, wood versus any arrow then it would seem that the rules we have are pretty fair.

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Gray Ghost :
It seems that you want the IBO longbow rules to conform to your shooting style and equipment. You can shoot in the HR class with a longbow and any arrow with 3 under, or do you feel you are at a disavantage shooting a longbow against recurves?
I just don't understand why you whnt them to conform to your shooting style , I doubt if they change the rules to the way you want that it would bring that many more shooters into the longbow class 10 , 15 ?? Just shoot the equipment you are comfortable with and shoot in the class that your equipment defines. Look at it this way the IBO could have only one trad. class like the ASA and then you would realy have something to complain about. Shoot and have fun !!!

Billstick

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Folks,

First, I would strongly urge you and other Longbow Hunters to respond to this thread by offering "constructive criticism" of my suggestion. A free and open exchange of factual information is usually the way progress is made in a free society. If it makes you feel better, you are also free to attribute selfish motives to the set of "Longbow Hunter" rules I have suggested.

Guess its time I responded to, some comments in this thread, which are critical of me in some cases and not constructive criticism of what I have proposed in others. Maybe some of the reasons for my suggested rules should be examined. Or would that be too constructive?

Billstick. "It seems that you want the IBO longbow rules to conform to your shooting style and equipment" If you read carefully, I think you should find I want the longbow rules to include me, and others like me, and others that are different from me. You seem to prefer rules that exclude, and that is an altogether difference in philosophy. If you can present me with an explanation of how your philosophy furthers the major aim of IBO of " the unification of bowhunters" I would like to know how. If this major aim is to be replaced with "the unification of target archers", then you are absolutely right and I am completely wrong.

Your statement "do you feel you are at a disadvantage shooting a longbow against recurves" fails to address the point that each type of bow, Longbow, Recurve, Compound and now Crossbow are served best by shooting against others shooting their type bow. Multi-subdivisions are made for only one type of bow, the compound. I assume you don't subscribe to the old cliché, what is good for the "goose is good for the gander." I'm not suggesting that Longbow Hunters have multiple classes in IBO, like the compound Hunters, but a single all inclusive class of Longbow Hunters.

" why you whnt them to conform to your shooting style" Billstick, do you really think that I am the only person that shoots a 3 pc Longbow made by a hundred Bowyers, or a R/D made by others Bowyers? You think these Bowyers have stayed in business from selling only a dozen Longbows that differ from your? Get real; there are thousands of us out here.

" something to complain about" Am I to understand that any suggestion that might change the status Quo, by including a large set of Hunters is a complaint, and a threat to you? This large set of Longbow Hunters may not want to shoot in 3D meets, that’s their right, but they should be allowed by the rules.

Darryl Longbow,
"what the majority of longbow shooters most often actually shoot (wood arrows with a split finger release}" Darryl, I understand that under the present rules your statement is factually correct, but that is due to the exclusion of all others. However, I do differ with your use of the term "majority". I don't think any of us knows, with absolute certainty, what the Majority may be. Do you know how many of Longbows made and sold by the 150 Bowyers listed at < http://www.women-outdoors.com/traditional/bowyers1.htm > meet the present rules, how many don't. This also does not include the 3-500? or more "selfbow" makers that sell bows, or the hundreds of selfbow makers that shoot their own bows and whose buddies do. One of the Major Sponsors of this site makes an arrow called the "Legacy" as well as other models of Aluminum arrows. Carbons the same way. Do you know as a fact that the majority of Longbow Hunters use the split finger release? I doubt it. How many gloves are made and sold compared to tabs made and sold. I don't know, but you claim to possess such information? You, in essence, are accusing me of a selfish act; I don't see it that way. Is protection of the Status Quo, a selfish and self-serving act?

" If you are not receiving any encouragement from other longbow shooters" Ahhh! Darryl, you have to understand, that although there may be many Longbow Hunters in this area, often I'm the only one that shows up at IBO meets and shoot. As a for instance, tonight (Sat. Dec 7) I attended an indoor shoot after driving an hour and a half and won the Traditional class (longbow and recurve) with no trouble. I was the only one in my class. Yet I know personally of at least six other people who could be in that class with Longbows and twice as many with recurves. If they wanted to shoot under the rules of exclusion. I won by default, (as no other competitor showed up)(the present rules?) not by good shooting.

" There is a place for three under and any arrow so allow those of us who shoot wood and split fingers" A factual statement and I don't suggest that any rule be made to change that. The question you need to answer is a factual one, not one based on emotion. Do you really feel that people that shoot Longbows made the Bowyers and selfbowers mentioned above? Are all going to outshoot you? Since wood arrows are usually more forgiving, do you think they are going to outshoot you by shooting aluminum or carbon? Is this a confidence problem? (note my suggestion include a weight requirements more in line with Hunters and less in line with target shooters)(my arrows are 11.8 grs per #).

BowPro "Do we seek input from individuals? Sometimes. Do we ask at local shoots? That is not really practical. Although to say that input is not provided locally would not be true. Any time any of us are at a local shoot, we certainly recieve comments. But, ascertaining the opinions of a class or group of shooters from a local area is unrealistic" " I have often looked for that ivory tower thing, just haven't found it yet." Bowpro, IMHO this is a clear-cut description of: an Ivory Tower; a paternalistic/children; Management/blue collar worker; or Monarch/peon relationship. Surely someone in the management of this organization must be capable of gathering Data from individuals at meets by surveys being handed out to participants. By having survey's handed out by Bowers when they sell "THEIR LONGBOWS" to someone. All data should not be from "any of us" (management), but should come from the participants.

"Sometimes it is not easy to find the most amicable opinion for the greatest number of us." I understand this completely; I just question what is the "greatest number". I think the most reliable data, at this point in time, would be to ask all 150 Bowyers to help you gather this data, by providing some numbers based either upon the actual number of Longbows of each type they have sold or what Percent of each type sold. I would also suggest the same thing for all the Selfbow makers out there. (Don’t forget to include Martins, etc.) The same thing goes for tabs and gloves. What is the data on how many of each are sold each year? Without data, you are only using the same opinions from the same select group, over and over again.


Fastfletch, your statement " the membership had a chance to submit their comments pro or con prior to the next annual meeting" hits the X ring, from where I sit!

Take care, Bill Hayden aka The Grey Ghost

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Gray Ghost : You still did not answer my question , do you feel that you are at a diavantage shooting a longbow w/ alum. or carbon arrows ,3pc. and center shot, and 3 fingers under in the Hunter recurve class?
Most r/d longbow fit in the MTRD class , I did see the 2nd place finisher in Flatwoods ,WV get disqualified for having a center shot bow,it was a 3pc. takedown.
I do agree with you on the rule about 3 fingers under , I think they should let you shoot any style release as long as one finger touches the nock. Another rule I don't understand is "all arrows must have the same color fletching , but that is the rule so I will conform to them.

Billstick

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Billstick,

Sorry, I didn't mean to be ducking your question. I meant this statement to address that "each type of bow, Longbow, Recurve, Compound and now Crossbow are served best by shooting against others shooting their type bow". I have shot against recurve shooters before and their bows are usually faster and with "Light arrows" they have an advantage only if they are more accurate, steady, and just better shots. If we are equal in our shooting skills, I think they are at a disadvantage because their style bow (IMO)are more sensitive to shooter error. If the recurve shooter makes just as many errors as I make, I'll win. Keep in mind, I don't claim to be a good archer, just a concerned one. In fact, I am down right lousy. (grin)

On the subject of arrows, I have nothing against wooden arrows, love to shoot them and feel they are more forgiving of my style of shooting. But, since during all our bad weather, I shoot my 300 arrows a day indoors, I have found that with the backstops we use, I loose too many field points, endangering the arrows of others and requiring repair on my woodies on a daily basis. I don't have the same problem with my 2020 Legacies.

For me personally, the single most important change would be to allow the Apache (3 under) release. However, the proposal was intended to permit others, now excluded, a home for participation. I have read where some Longbow men would like longer yardage. I think my proposal not only covers them, but allows others to shoot at a more appropriate yardage for them. I don't believe we need to make FITA archers out of every longbow shooter. I have a Gold Medalist for that. (Orange stake sets the distance, 1/6 green stake, 1/3 the distance to the yellow, and 1/2 the distance for Longbow Hunter. Bows, then arrows. Arrows are the least of my concerns, but they may be for others.

Take care, Bill Hayden

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Bill :Like I said I don't understand why they do not allow 3 fingers under either . Don't you think the 125 gr, no nibb point rule in HR would take care of the super light arrows ? As for shot distance , well this is target archery . I know the B stands for bowhunter in IBO but their tournaments have evolved into 3d target archery. Back when I started shooting IBO there was only one class for recurves and longbows and we shot from the orange stakes , talk about fun shots !! Take care .

Bill S.

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Greyghost, I went back and looked at the current rules about longbows,I fail to see where any of the bows made by any of the bowers out there will not conform so long as the string touches only the limb tips, hybreds are legal as are R/D type of longbows. The center shot rule allows you to build out the side untill it conforms to the 1/8. It does not require the bower to construct a special bow that is IBO only legal as is required in the IFAA shoots on a international basis. I base my majority idea (which I agree in that no one can say with absolute certainty)on personal observation of 40 plus years of shooting and attendence at many shoots that allow aluminum , carbon, or wood and in my observation the majority have chosen split finger and wood. As to wood being more forgiving I must disagree in that while it may or may not be more forgiving than any other material it certainly will never be as consistent and hence not as accurate overall. In your opinion is three under easier to achieve a desired level of accuracy with over split finger and is there enough difference between a longbow and a recurve to warrant a division for each ? I to often compete against recurves and with my wood arrows and find it is the shooter and not the equipment that makes the difference but that when you go to three under and aluminum there does seem to be a difference. Tip for your field points on wood , you might try reaming out the point with steel wool and a degreaser then attaching with two part epoxy, had the same problem until I started doing this and now you cant get them off without drilling or burning them out.

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Billstick,

Glad we agree on the tab! (smile).

No! I don't think requiring 125gr tips or no nib's, addresses the real problem. Why make a rule so easily circumvented. IMO that rule is intended to level the playing field between wooden, aluminum and carbon arrows. Therefore, instead of addressing this problem indirectly, lets address the real problem,their differences in weight.

Longbow hunters seek, foam, plastic tubing, rope, heavy tip'S and other means to beef up the weights of their aluminum arrows OR carbon shafts. Wooden arrow Longbow Hunters go for hard wood shafts, footed shafts, compressed wood shafts and laminated shafts to solve the same problem, HUNTING WEIGHT SHAFTS. A large number of Longbow Bowyers will void their warranty if the archer shoots underweight, anemic arrows. So that problem takes care of itself if you require hunting weight arrows in a Longbow Hunter Class. The proposed "minimum weight of 8.5 to 10.1 or greater, grains per pound of draw weight" is a starting point. (I personally shoot in practice 582 gr arrow's with a 45-50 draw weight).

Bill, I think you should still be able to do the same, (shoot from the orange, green, yellow stake) under the Longbow Hunter class, if you so choose. The young compound Archers that let me go with them to these IBO meets, often have me take a "free shot" at a Standing Bear, Lion, Buffalo, or Elk from their Orange stake. However, I don't want a 35 yard shot at a Wolverine, Raccoon, or an over the water Beaver.

Glad to tell you what I think Bill, but please don't let my personal information, confuse the proposal for all Longbow Hunter's.

Take care, Bill Hayden

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Darryl,

Shot last night in an indoor Meet and was placed in my class based on my bow being a Recurve. My bow, (Roy Hall, Navajo Scout, 3pc) only has the string touching the limbs at the tip when strung, but strung some of the R/D is still seen as a visible bend in the limb prior to the tip, and that makes it a "Recurve" to them. All or most 3pc bows are ruled on this way. Same thing with R/D, if the curve can be seen it may be ruled a Recurve. The only way I see to overcome these rulings is to clarify the definition and to say that these bows are legal longbows.

I have no problem with making the center shot portion of the rule, but differ on the 1/8" limitation on the shelf. I follow what I believe Bill Matlock suggest on my shelf. I form a "crowned sight window and shelf" by placing a strip of 1/8" leather shoe string on both and then covering both with a sealskin rest attaching with barge cement. This violates the 1/8" rule.

I understand your remarks on consistency of wood arrows, but feel in most case's they can be spined and massed close enough to provide accuracy far superior to my ability.

To address these two question's. " In your opinion is three under easier to achieve a desired level of accuracy with over split finger and is there enough difference between a longbow and a Recurve to warrant a division for each?"

IMO out to 25 yards it is easier to be accurate with three under, and that 30 yds and beyond it's easier to be accurate with split fingers. In other words, I believe that three under is more accurate for hunting, and split fingers are more accurate for long target practice.

In regards to the second part of your question, again IMO, I would refer you back to a prior answer, " each type of bow, Longbow, Recurve, Compound and now Crossbow are served best by shooting against others shooting their type bow". That being said. The History of Archery has established these bow types, not me, and I feel it is reasonable to follow this division if establishing rules for this and any other organized game.

If I have counted correctly, there are 29 classes. Lets examine the names relevant to this discussion: HUNTER RECURVE allows Recurve and Longbow. Note Longbows are not mentioned in the title: RECURVE UNAIDED, note that it again allows Recurves and longbows and title; YOUTH TRADITIONAL, Recurves and longbows again with the Traditional title (?); FEMALE TRADITIONAL, Recurve and Longbow; TRADITIONAL LONGBOW, no Recurve.

Except for the Crossbow class, Longbows and recurves may shoot in all 28 classes; class's is designed for Compound shooters and their equipment. There are really four (4) Recurve classes designed for Recurve shooter and Longbows again are allowed to shoot. There is only one longbow classes, and it does not permit all Longbow shooter to participate. The discrimination against Longbows even continues over into the " Shooter of the Year" with Recurve Shooters (RU) and X-bow is included, but good old MTRD is excluded. Don't you see a pattern here?

I'll have to try your suggestion on attaching field pts. Thanks!

Take care, Bill Hayden

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Darryl,

Shot last night in an indoor Meet and was placed in my class based on my bow being a Recurve. My bow, (Roy Hall, Navajo Scout, 3pc) only has the string touching the limbs at the tip when strung, but strung some of the R/D is still seen as a visible bend in the limb prior to the tip, and that makes it a "Recurve" to them. All or most 3pc bows are ruled on this way. Same thing with R/D, if the curve can be seen it may be ruled a Recurve. The only way I see to overcome these rulings is to clarify the definition and to say that these bows are legal longbows.

I have no problem with making the center shot portion of the rule, but differ on the 1/8" limitation on the shelf. I follow what I believe Bill Matlock suggest on my shelf. I form a "crowned sight window and shelf" by placing a strip of 1/8" leather shoe string on both and then covering both with a sealskin rest attaching with barge cement. This violates the 1/8" rule.

I understand your remarks on consistency of wood arrows, but feel in most case's they can be spined and massed close enough to provide accuracy far superior to my ability.

To address these two question's. " In your opinion is three under easier to achieve a desired level of accuracy with over split finger and is there enough difference between a longbow and a Recurve to warrant a division for each?"

IMO out to 25 yards it is easier to be accurate with three under, and that 30 yds and beyond it's easier to be accurate with split fingers. In other words, I believe that three under is more accurate for hunting, and split fingers are more accurate for long target practice.

In regards to the second part of your question, again IMO, I would refer you back to a prior answer, " each type of bow, Longbow, Recurve, Compound and now Crossbow are served best by shooting against others shooting their type bow". That being said. The History of Archery has established these bow types, not me, and I feel it is reasonable to follow this division if establishing rules for this and any other organized game.

If I have counted correctly, there are 29 classes. Lets examine the names relevant to this discussion: HUNTER RECURVE allows Recurve and Longbow. Note Longbows are not mentioned in the title: RECURVE UNAIDED, note that it again allows Recurves and longbows and title; YOUTH TRADITIONAL, Recurves and longbows again with the Traditional title (?); FEMALE TRADITIONAL, Recurve and Longbow; TRADITIONAL LONGBOW, no Recurve.

Except for the Crossbow class, Longbows and recurves may shoot in all 28 classes; class's is designed for Compound shooters and their equipment. There are really four (4) Recurve classes designed for Recurve shooter and Longbows again are allowed to shoot. There is only one longbow classes, and it does not permit all Longbow shooter to participate. The discrimination against Longbows even continues over into the " Shooter of the Year" with Recurve Shooters (RU) and X-bow is included, but good old MTRD is excluded. Don't you see a pattern here?

I'll have to try your suggestion on attaching field pts. Thanks!

Take care, Bill Hayden

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

If the shoot you attended was an IBO shoot it seems perhaps the people who said your bow was a recurve should go back and check the wording of the rule. #1 states if your bow string touches only the nocks of the bow it is a longbow by IBO definition. It does not mention anything else such as limb design. It took me awhile but I see your point on the rest, it raises the arrow up from the shelf more than 1/8 a no no, while it is ok to move it out more than 1/8 from the face of the riser. Tell those other longbow shooters and recurve shooters that are not attending shoots with you to quit being lazy and go with you. The greatest problem with traditional is not so much equipment as it seems to be an unwillingness to participate. I may not agree with you on the rules per say but you are getting out and letting people see that there are traditionalist around and that puts you head and shoulders above the ones who do not. We seem to forget that archery is not life and death and sometimes get carried away with the details when the most important thing is not winning or losing but enjoying ourselves and spending time with others that have a simalar intrest, a point as an active member of lawenforcement I had brought home all to vividly on the icy roads today. Enjoy yourself and be thankful we all live in a place where we can even participate in our chosen sport and such disscussions as we have are allowed, and no the rules are not perfect , never will be to everyone but the people who establish them and administer them do a job that I suspect is far more difficult than most of us will ever realise and do the best they can within the system they have to work in. Stay safe all.

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Darryl,

Don't want to mis-represent the Saturday Night meet, the club, is a member of several National Organizations and uses IBO 3D rules. The 1/8" rule should be changed to ¼" rule, I hope you agree. (Smile). Normally five days a week I shoot 300 or more arrows over a 3-4 hour period of time at an indoor range which is part of a good size Hunting/Archery store. During that period of time, if anyone has a question about Traditional Archery, they get referred to me. There is one other Traditional Archer, that usually practices during his lunch hour. That's it. I try and seduce the stores customers into Traditional equipment, or to bring former Longbow/Recurve shooters back into the fold. Sometimes during the summer the other Longbow shooter and I will attend 3D meets, but the majority of the time, the young Compound shooters carry me around with them. I accuse them of shooting FORD's (Fix Or Repair Daily) and they fuss about my tomato stake with a string and I correct them, it’s a Hickory tobacco stick with fishing line. I still feel that appropriate rule changes may help people already shooting return to meets.

We do have similar philosophies on life; it seems, just not on rules. (grin). Guess its cause I use to serve many of the same clients you do now. I'm a retired 68-year-old schoolteacher. Keep it right side up, drive defensively, and be extra careful on your traffic stops and domestic disturbance calls.

Take care, Bill

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Bill-(Gray Ghost),


Lets say that Babe Ruth Jr. has played baseball from age 6 to now. He is 22 years old and has set every hitting and home run record from t-ball till now. The Yankees sign him up. He go's into the house his dad built, Yankee staidum, and steps up to plate for his first at bat. He has his trusty alum. bat in hand. The one that he has used for years ! The ump. tells him, " Ya can't use that bat son. Thats the rules ! " What I am getting at is, he knew that before he got there.

All the rules for the MTRD class are there for a reason. They are there to insure that no one can gain an unfair advantage with their equipment. We have one man in our area that I will use to make my point. This guy went from 210-220 shooter (30 targets) to a 260-270 shooter over night. He had cut his arrows off in differant lengths so he could shoot point on at all the targets. He had them marked so he could tell his 15 yd. arrow from his 30 yd. arrow and so forth. That is the reason for the all arrows must look alike rule.


I geuss what I am trying to say is it's their game so we have to play by their rules. I do not have a problem with that. I do wish that we were treated as equals with all the other class's.



Bill

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Bill,

Lets take your young man, or me back to the 1940's, when he/I started playing "sand-lot ball" in some cow pasture or school yard out in the country, at the age of nine. We played pick-up ball games after school. Elementary, Junior High and High School kids played with out of school teens, and old men of 25 to 45, most of who were 4F. Whatever it took to get two teams. One of these fellows had club feet and club hands, couldn't’t have worn a glove if he had one. But, he managed to field a ball, got his turn at bat, he played ball. None of us thought to tell him he couldn't’t play. Some old men had youngsters run the bases for them. We probably broke a lot of rules. But no one told us we couldn't’t play. We enjoyed Our game of Baseball. We were not the pros, we were kids playing sandlot ball. We were having fun! If someone had made us play strictly by the rules used by Pro's, we probably wouldn't’t have had fun. Some of us would not have been allowed to play, and many would have quit. We understood cheating, and were very quick to stop it, and get rid of the cheater.

That’s the idea I'm trying to get across here. The "game" of Archery is being choked by rules that keep some of from playing with the equipment or style we have. The fellow that cut off his arrows broke the rules and should not be allowed to play the game. No argument there, he was a cheater.

However, you did not point out how any of my suggested rules would cause any of the top 40 MRTD archers from this past year to suddenly be overtaken and fall behind 40-50 pts. As a result of such changes.

"It's their game so we have to play by their rules" No Bill, its not, its our game and it should be our rules. Rules we have had input about, rules we have discussed, cussed, and decided on. Not rules handed down to us without Democratic input. Longbow Hunters/Archers are not treated as equals, probably because they have never spoken up and had a voice as I suspect compound shooters have.

It is a game, and it should be as fun as it was when we first got started. I don’t know if the rules will ever be changed or not.
I enjoy competition and believe in rules. But, when they start to reduce the enjoyment and fun, or limits who can play, then its time to think about a change

I'll tell you how I intend to play this summer. I am going to shoot in every match I can. I'll walk down to the half-way point between the Orange stake and the 3D target. Then, I'll scoot off the trail, left or right, maybe 5-10 yds till I find a nice tunnel through the brush and trees, and I'll take my shot from that spot. If I feel lucky, or it’s a large animal, such as a Lion, Buffalo, Elk, or standing Bear. I'll shoot at it from a spot selected the same way from the Orange stake, and then fire another one from my half-way point. And I would invite any Longbow Hunter who wants to have fun to join me. Just think two shots at the same animal from two different ranges, once in a while (grin). I'll keep score, and keep my card so I can see if I'm improving. Wish I could turn the card in, but that doesn't matter, you see I shoot a Longbow.

Take care, Bill

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Bill-(GG),


You go to a regular Sunday shoot at Heartland Archry Club. ( Your 1940's ball game ) Now then, that club can play by whatever rules it wants to. (it's their club)There are 1000's of these types of shoots all over the world.

Now then in 2 weeks they have IBO world Quilfier.(Yankee's game) In that shoot all IBO rules are followed. Again 100's of these all over the world.


Now there's a guy from Germany. He likes to hold the string with his pinky finger and use pointer finger as a sight.The guy from San Fran. He likes to use alum. arrows and fill them with differant amounts of wieght so he can hold at one place all the time and arrows will strake target where he wants. Here's poor old Bill. He shoots a hickory stick with a three under release. Is the way any of these guy's shoot wrong, No. They shoot the way they want to ,but what happens when they go to the world series ? Who say's what is fair to German or old sweet Bill. They are all shooting a bow where the string does not touch after it leaves the string groove. These are all longbows .


I shot 3-under and alum. arrows for a long time. I knew that IBO rules said that if I was going to shoot in their events I would have to play by the rules they had set. Did I agree with all of them , NO ! These rules are to try to make the playing field equal. The German guy, the guy from San Fran. and old sweet Bill had to change if they wanted to play.

Just the way I see it.



Bill Leslie

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Bill, (WFL)

I believe that the arrow problem is covered with the rule I proposed. # "3. Arrow shafts shall be identical in length, weight and color, except for normal wear. Arrow shafts may be wood, aluminum, carbon, or a combination of aluminum and carbon. All arrows will be Hunting weight (i.e., a minimum weight of 8.5 to 10.1 or greater, grains per pound of draw weight)" The individual in your example would be in violation of the proposed rules and his/her score would not count. Note "same weight, same length"

On your other two examples, both are methods of shooting and have nothing to do with equipment. If it is found that the pinkie finger, or three under allow these shooters to win, time after time. Then other shooters would have to consider seeing if that technique is really superior for all Bowhunters, or just those two.

You’re an excellent shot and even though I don't know exactly where you rank in the world, I am sure you're in the top five, and I think number two. Honestly now were you that much better with Aluminum and three under? If so, how many pts better?

" These rules are to try to make the playing field equal" I understand that and agree 100% Bill. That is what I am trying to address here. Just what is required to make the playing field level, and WHAT IS NOT REQUIRED.

Please select one of the proposed rules and tell me how it would allow someone that is now ranked in the second 40 (41-80) in the world, to move up to number 20 in the world ranking. I have yet to hear how any of the suggested rules would have such a drastic effect on scores.

The stated mission of IBO is "To promote, encourage and foster the sport of bowhunting; further bowhunter education; act as a political coordinator and liaison for the protection and advancement of bowhunting; - function as a clearinghouse for essential bowhunter information; and - adhere to the basic ideal of the unification of bowhunters."

Nowhere in the stated mission of IBO does it say target shooting. It says BOWHUNTER, each and every time. If and when the IBO changes its mission to Target Archery, rather than Bowhunting, then I will shut up, tuck my tail between my legs and slink off into the brush. Because, I am not a Target Archer, nor do I really want to be one. I would however, like to be a Bowhunter and to play a Bowhunter game. The point is to increase the number of participating BOWHUNTERS.

We are debating or arguing these issues here, in an attempt to get the other person/s to change their mind and to adopt our point of view. Whose mind, if changed, might have the greater positive influence on the growth of Longbow Hunters in the IBO?

Take care, GG

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

There ar too many Bill here <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Bill (GG) I shot with Keith Bain at the IBO worlds a few years back , and he said he could shoot 10-15 points higher with alum.
arrows. Don't know if Bill (WFL) can shoot higher with alum. or carbon but it would be interesting to know , well Bill (WFL) ??

Billstick

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

I shot MTRD at the World's last year. Never used alum but do average 20 pts or more higher with carbon. For me, there is little scoring difference between the hybrid longbow and a recurve. I choose to enter the MTRD because I felt the equipment restrictions put us all on an equal level to truly measure skills and abilities to deal with pressure. I used the same equipment I planned to hunt with this year so competing did better my bowhunting skills. If I felt I wanted to use carbon or alum, I would have no problem entering the Recurve Hunter class with my hybrid and feeling I would be as competitive as in the MTRD. Perhaps the new Recurve Hunter class should be named Trad Hunter - any stick shooting any hunting arrow from the shelf with any release. JMHO
Steve B

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Billstick,

When you talk about the World Championship, won by Keith with a 328 score, keep in mind the man behind him with a 326, was Bill Leslie (WFL/KY). Maybe he will provide you with his experience with other shafts. SteveBNy didn’t do too bad himself with a 289. Steve has already told you how many points another type shaft would change his score.

SteveBNy, since you shoot about 20 pts better with carbon, I would like to know if you are comparing carbons of hunting weight, with wood arrows of the same hunting weight? (Oranges to oranges, not apple to oranges) BillStick, did this come up in your discussion with Keith? As for instance, are you comparing a finished carbon arrow at 400 grains to a wooden arrow at 600 grains? If so the 20 pts difference in score may be due to something else. Without knowing more about the aluminum and carbon arrows being talked about and compared with wood, all I have is a guess. I can contribute both of these increases in scores to the arrows being lighter with a flatter trajectory contributing to these improvements in scores, which would be outside rule #3 above. (8.5 to 10.1 gr per pound draw weight)

If these excellent of archers, were to shoot a round with each type arrow weighing 10.5 grains per pound of pull, and the results still showed Aluminum and Carbon scoring more points then we would have something. Would any of these gentlemen care to conduct an experiment for us? Or is there data out there on this subject already. If a valid experiment showed a 20 pt difference, then the question would become, Why not enter the 21st Century?

Steve, you are back to lumping Longbow Hunters into a Recurve Class. I'm interested in having a home for all Longbow Hunters. There are 25 Classes designed for Compound shooters. There are four classes for Recurve shooters, and one for Longbow and one for the crossbow. If adopting the rules, suggested above for the Traditional Class, would upset the Status Quo so much, then simply create a second longbow class, to be called Longbow Hunter Class. Don't you think this would be a step in achieving the IBO goal of &quot; unification of
bowhunters&quot;?

Take care, GG

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Grey Ghost:
I should start by saying that I do not shoot Trad. and am not as informed on the intricacies of that style of shooting as I should be. However, I am familiar with management/leadership responsibilities and limitations. What I can tell you is that no governing body can ever establish a set of rules which will totally please everyone. Niether can they effectively change and adapt their rules every time a new player joins the game. It is our responsibility to adapt to the rules of the game we are joining.

On the surface some of your suggestions appear to make sence. They fail to take into consideration larger significant factors. Things such as &quot;entering the 21st century&quot; with regard to wood arrows can lead to the loss of a very ancient and honorable shooting style. Better is always an individual perception. Further your willingness to disregard established rules as you see fit takes credibility away from any other arguments you might make. Your plan to select your own shooting lanes and locations during tournaments is of significant concern. In this you display a total disregard for the safety of your fellow competitors. Courses are set up taking into consideration the lay of the land and the possibility of glancing shots. If you are willing to disregard these rules, there is no reason to believe that any others will have more effect.

The &quot;unification&quot; of bowhunters does start with getting you and your buddies together, but it goes far beyond that. There are manufacterers and proshops to consider, not to mention clubs, cities, states and countries. Oh yeah - the I in IBO stands for international.

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Very well put bluejacket. I agree 100%. I would also like to add a couple of thoughts.
1. I know that IBO stands for International &quot;BOWHUNTER&quot; Organization, but as someone stated in an earlier post, I believe that the IBO has evolved into and including target archery. I also beleive that their are 3 if not more levels of &quot;BOWHUNTING&quot;. (The Back Yard Archer, The Local Shoot Archer, and the National Level Archer). All of which increase in rules the futher that you go. Now remember you are commenting on the top level of archery. When you shoot in your back yard, you set the rules. The same goes for the local club, they set the rules, some adopt the IBO rules and some do not. And of course the IBO rules, Set for National Level of competion.

2. If any divisions in the rules are made how many would be in each class. Right now in MTRD the First Leg of the National Triple Crown had 14 Contestants, The 2nd Leg had 11, the 3rd leg had 14, and the World Championship had 40. Yes, Their may be some problems in the rules, but who is right, the guy that just so happens to shoot the way the rules read or the guy who does not?


God is Good

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Bill H.,

Frist of all may I say that I agree with you 100 % thay the B in IBO stands for bowhunting. You can ask anybody that I have been around and they will tell you that I state this quite often.Even Ken has herd it from me many times. I hunt with the same bow and arrows that I compete with. As a life member of the IBO I believe in the ideals that the IBO were founded on. I know many of the people that were around when it was started. The IBO was founded right here in our little part of the world.

That being said, I believe that the IBO rules committee needs to keep in their mind what the B stands for . I believe that this 3DI thing has clouded their vision ! I hope that there are still some of us around when the smoke clears.


I know you want an answer to that burning question of wood vs. alum .Here go's, shooting foam there is no differants.Shooting for group's on paper, wood will not hang with alum. So, when shooting game or 3-d targets I score the same with wood or alum. As a side note, game is pretty safe with me hunting it! You have to be smarter than what your hunting! If a fairly dumb animal gets close to me, I can make the shot! I hope that settles that question.






Good Hunting ,


Bill

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

GG :
I was not taking anything away from WFL , I have never shot a round with him , and I know who the top shooters are and he is one of the best. Anytime your name is in the top 5 at the IBO world as many times as his is I have all the respect for him. I have shot rounds with four past and present world champions, but never had the pleasure to shoot with WFL ,maybe this year, I'm not the best shot or one of the top 10 but when I shoot with a top shooter it seams to bring out the best in me.
Bill Schoenig (Billstick)

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

I have heard from many of the shooters in MTRD that have competed in IBO events in the past couple years about this thread.Their concerns are for the distance for the yellow stake compared to the white stake,and mixed feelings about the Recurve Hunter Class. Their concern about the addition of the class are relevant to splitting their numbers and losing a place to compete.
The distance issue is worthy of looking at again. We have to look at the white stake, which was shortened for the cubs.
I am not convinced (but I am only one person in a meeting of 18) that 25 yards is enough of a stretch for the skills of the longbow shooters.
The loss of MTRD or this style of equipment is not an issue,at all.
We have had a hundred discussions concerning more shooters in the recurve or longbow classes.We have gone to the traditional rendevous around the country to look around, ask questions, etc. The comments from many in those events were more than a little negative. One that always sticks in my mind was a reference to all compound shooters being nothing more than a bunch of poachers. That one in particular stuck with me. Most were directed at an unwillingness to be a part of any shoot that relied on accuracy. Another big one was no desire to be around any shoot with compounds. But these comments are part of the dialogue between any styles and equipment. We know that.
We have talked about a seperate Traditional World, seperate from the World's. But, many of us have a problem with that concept.
In the realm of competition we needed to add the changes to RU this year. With the advent of 3-DI, IBO needs a way to allow our shooters to prepare for their possible inclusion in a team to represent the US against the rest of the world, in the international arena.
But, we wanted to allow the shooters that did not choose to be interested in this to keep playing the game they were comfortable with.
It was also an opportunity to invite Longbow shooters interested in shooting 3 fingers under or a different arrow into IBO competition.
As in the x-bow class, one would be added to see what the interest is. If it garners significant interest the possibility exists for an additional class to seperate longbow and recurves.
We will not ask the clubs that comprise IBO to add another class until that is ascertained.Maybe we titled the class incorrectly and as mentioned above it should have been traditional hunter.
Having gotten to know many of the competitors in the MTRD,FTRD an RU classes in the past few years I can say this as an absolute. They conduct their competition in a more professional way than just about any other. They have a good time and have made some very good friendships along the way. They also police their own better than anyone. Having said that, we don't want to create any situation that will not be in their comfort zone. They are part of the IBO.
Do we discriminate against them? Yes we do. We have never held a meeting for MBO to discusss their rules. We ask the traditioalists because the board recognizes that most of the board does not have experience enough with traditional equipment to give proper judgement to the issues. But, with that input the board does have to make decisions for the organization.
This year a couple guys from MTRD came to us and asked if their would ever be a place in IBO for their children to compete in the styles and with the equipment that they used.
Could we add four classes to make it equal with the other youth classes? No, but we can try one and give the start of an opportunity.Then watch and see how that develops.
There is a lot of history with the traditional classes. There are, and have been many, many proposals and discussions about change or additions. There will be more.
Righ now, at this moment, we have a set of rules and some classes. They are where and how we can compete for now.
I did note the comment about walking around and selecting your own shot. That is beyond dangerous. Ranges at National and World events are set using topo maps and aerial photos. Glance offs and deflections are taken into consideration from a particular spot. Any variation from that spot is not possible! To many things can go wrong. Do not do it!
Many local shoots are set even tighter.
Anyone doing this will be dealt with as harshly as possible. If there was a law against it, we would prosecute the person that does something as foolish as this. If a stronger punishment was possible I would recommend it.
This is almost as bad as shooting an apple from someones head!
ken12

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Ken :
My only concern is that there will be a lot of classes shooting from the yellow stakes this year , HC,FHC,HF, MTRD, FTRD.HR, and RU + youth classes. As you know the trad. guys and gals like to zip thru the courses in a resonable time , will there be seperate courses for the trad. shooter a the worlds and the triple crown ? If not maybe you could send us off first , I think the big complant I hear a the shoots I go to is that the compound shooters take to long to shoot. Not comlaing myself but that is the nature of this style shooting , and if it starts taking to long for the trad. people to go thru the course you might start loseing some of the trad. people from the shoots.
As for all compond shooters being poachers , DO NOT include me these type of trad. shooters , I respect all types of archery hunters , we must stick together , it is not the type of equiptment you shoot it is you attitude and respect for the game you hunt.

Bill Schoenig

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

This change will actually allow us to expedite these classes. Numbers on the ranges are balanced. Number of classes on a stake is not relative. Number of shooters for a stake is the factor.
ken12

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Ken,

I know what you mean when you talk about some traditionalist's idea's! Some of those guy's would say the same about me because I shoot a bow with fiberglass in it ! Kind of the same thing happen to me at Big IBO shoot one time. Guy told me that I should buy a compound. Then he wanted to know how many deer I had wounded. So, there are mean spirited people all over.

I would like to say that I am very pleased that there is now a youth trad. class ! I would like to thank the committee for this .


Traditional Hunter would have been a better name IMO. I also think that it's yardage should have been set at the white stake. This yardage would be more like what most traditionalist's would take while hunting.

The reason that most trad. shooters do not shoot IBO shoots is because the time it take's to complete a round. Nothing will tare you apart while on the range more than waiting 10-15 minutes between shots ! I'm not really sure what the answer for this is ?


Hope all is well,

Bill

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Folks,

Let me address SAFETY FIRST. Blue Jacket, Bow Pro, and others. I would NEVER. Never, shoot an arrow in any direction where a deflection would be a safety concern. I have shot on a few courses, where some shots on the course were marginally safe, and any deviation would or could become hazardous. You have a safety cone that you shoot within that spreads out in space in front of you. Every time you add five yards, the point where two cones start to overlap, becomes closer and closer till they are overlapping. Adding distance, in five-yard increments beyond 30 yards, increases the safety hazard at a much greater rate. These &quot;cones of safety&quot; start to meet and overlap almost at once on inward shots as their zones of fire overlap. This is something every meet organizer needs to be aware of.

Normally this occurs on the first few targets. Courses that have you shooting on a radius towards the center of a circle are usually dangerous. On these courses the lines converge. Most well laid out safe course, have you shoot away from the center with no other targets located beyond that point and thus the lines diverge. I have seen some courses where if you miss, it might not be safe to retrieve an arrow that travels very far from the target due to this convergence. I may have taken it as a given that anyone reading these Threads would understand that SAFETY COMES FIRST, with any weapon, Bow, rifle or pistol. If my remarks encouraged anyone to disregard safety in shooting, I truly apologize.

BlueJacket,

&quot;no governing body can ever establish a set of rules which will totally please everyone&quot; &quot;adapt to the rules of the game we are joining.&quot; This makes me think you feel that rules of a game are written in stone. I disagree. Football, Baseball, Basketball, Olympic events, have all had changes made in their rules down through the last century. I'm simply proposing that certain items in this set of rules be examined to see if a change is appropriate. If not, would a second Longbow Division called Longbow Hunter be appropriate. If in your manufactures, you include the 150+ Bowyers who make Longbows, I agree. Their input on what constitutes a Longbow is imperative. They produce the product we use to hunt and play. I believe that two of our best Bowyers create Illegal bows when it comes to the 1/8&quot; rule. O.L Adcock puts sealskin on his and Matlock puts on his highpointing. I think it's a shame to take such great bows and tear off what Master Bowyers have installed to meet this rule. I would hope that you agree that Logic tight compartment are not inducive to constructive rule changes.

I could follow the rules in every way but ONE. Its not medically possible for me to shoot 300 arrows a day using split fingers. AND, I want to use a highpoint shelf, covered with a sealskin rest (makes my shelf 1/4&quot;+) I fail to understand how this would give me, or anyone else an unfair advantage. As a defender of the rules, Please explain!!

Maverick3D,

Agree with you completely on their being different Levels. It is a shame that there are not more archers attending the National Class Meets. Is it because there are only 60 or so Longbow Hunters in the United States? I don't think so. Maybe we need to know why there are so few. Or, could it be that there are 1,000's and they choose not to enter due to the rules? If its fear of losing, then its a very bad reflection on our society. I lose most of the time when someone else shows up.

Bill L.

Glad to see we agree on &quot;Bowhunters&quot;, and the purposes stated when the IBO was founded. As you know, I feel that the IBO has lost sight of those purposes and needs to examine its alignment and restructure itself where needed.

If both Al & Wood arrows shoot the same under 3D conditions, then why not both?

I don't know if its covered by the rules or not, but I have often seen a small fast moving group allowed to &quot;shoot through&quot; on a 3D course by other compound shooters. It has happened to me most often when a couple of us illegal Longbow shooters are together.(Tom & I)
Courtesy between groups seems to be the rule, from my experiences. Maybe a protocol for doing this would induce more participation?

BillStick,

I didn't mean to imply anything in regards to WFL, sorry if I did. I only live about 50-60 miles from WFL and have yet to shoot a round with him myself. We shot at some foam at Twin Oaks BowHunters Club this last year in Tennessee, during warm-ups, but his group was too large for me to tag along. Hope you have success and get to shoot with him. You must be a faithful archer to have shot with so many of our greats today. I am sure you're a better shot than I. Probably don't loose as many arrows either. (grin)

BowPro,

In what way are the MTRD shooters that have contacted you concerned? Do they want longer shots than the 30 yds used last year? My chief concern over the distance is that because of the way the IBO rules are written, the local understanding is that as long as the maximum distance for a class is not exceeded by more than 10% that it is a legitimate distance for that class. Thus 30 yds becomes a 33yd shot. 35 would become 38-39 yard shots. It is too difficult without a range finder for them to say OK, we set the Orange stake at 42 yards, so the green should be at 37-38 yds, the yellow at 29 yds and the white stake at 25 yards. Instead they may place the Orange and green stake together and then place both the yellow and white at 33 yds. The distance for the different class's are not being kept in proportion. It is far easier to divide the distance into half, and then that half into 1/3's by eye balling where the middle is, placing the white stake, eyeballing the distance between the orange and white stakes into three segments and placing the green and yellow at the appropriate locations.

I appreciate you touching on many of the topics of concern to me with some feedback you have received in your travels. As I have said before in this thread. Without compound shooters taking me with them, I would never have been introduced to the IBO. I still do 99% of my shooting with the drivers of Ford Wheelies. It was compound shooters that got me started, not Longbow. I hope that this dialogue will lead to less discrimination against Longbow Hunters and their children. Again, my remarks about shooting from a different point, was not to inspire someone to do something stupid and shoot in an unsafe manner. It was, and still is, intended to urge all Longbow Hunters, to shoot in IBO meets and regardless of their equipment violations and style violations, pick their distance, take a safe shot, and keep a record of their scores and progress. If enough of us do it, and do it the same way, then we can compare our scores. This was the reason for the division of the distance between Orange and the target.

BillStick,

I take a plastic 5 gallon bucket with me that has a seat on and tell them to wake me up when they get through shooting, so I can take my turn. (smile) I get a lot of naps in this way. (grin) When appropriate, I sit and take my shots from it. Still touch my stake, and it gives me practice for shooting from a ground blind.

To ALL LONGBOW HUNTERS who follow these threads. Thank you for reading them, and please be sure to discuss them with others and the IBO. Pro or Con. I feel that the increase in dialogue, will in the end, prove beneficial.

For me personally, I would only need one change to shoot in the IBO &quot;Traditional&quot; Class. A tab! I still feel that the other items are keeping people from shooting in the IBO. As far as long distance shots are concerned, I do practice them some, my bow range has 40, 50, and 60 yards stakes, from two different directions.

I encourage all that view this thread to read the proposed rules and then provide constructive criticism.
Take care, gg

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

I currently like the equipment rules for MTRAD. It is setup so that I can purchase some of the nicest custom longbows and compete yet I could still go make my own self bow and arrows and still not be at a very big disadvantage. Heck one of the guys I was shooting with at the world shoot last year was using arrows made from dowel rods he got a K-Marts and he did very well. I think the distance needs to be debated though I will go along with whatever they decide

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi KN (or is that KEN?)

You like the rules!!?? Does this mean you approve of discrimination against Longbow Archers? And I quote.

&quot;Shooter of the Year I.B.O. Shooter of the Year is based on four scores from I.B.O. National Events: Winternationals, Southern Triple Crown and National Triple Crown. The following classes are eligible - FBO, FBR, FSR, MBF, MBO MBR, MCBH, MCU, MSR, PCBH, RU, X-BOW, SPM, SPF, PMF, PMR AND PSR.&quot;

You should notice that (MTRD) Traditional Longbow is the only one left out. They have even included X-BOW.

You like the rules? So since you agree to Discriminate against your own Traditional Champion and children (also made to shoot in compound or Recurve classes), you will have no problem Discriminating against the: 20% of traditional shooters who use a tab; and 50% of traditional archers who use Aluminum arrows not counting shelf violations or sight windows violations. Now lets picture 100 traditional archers standing in a row. We get rid of 50 right away because they use Aluminum arrows, and then using normal distribution, we get rid of another five because they use a tab. That leaves us 45 archers. Now, and I have to assume here, we get rid of those that use forbidden Hybrid bows (5 more drop down to 40). Then we have those with other problems, down another 10. That leaves 30. Now lets pretend that we invite Howard Hill, Fred Bear, and poor Old Ishi. At times HH used aluminum, Fred Bear and Fred used a Longbow, and Ishi did not use the approved draw. You would have to tell them sorry, but you can't shoot in the Traditional Class, But we would be glad to have you shoot in Classes designed for either compounds or Recurve. We now have the few, the proud, the Traditional, the survivors of the cut. Hope you realize my sarcasm is for the rules, not the individuals who made the cut.

Notice that you only referred to equipment rules. Do you use any thing other than thin leather in your sight window? No &quot;high pointing the shelf&quot; like Bill Matlock, suggests. I use a short piece of leather shoe lace, put it on with barge cement and then can't cover it with anything, because its already 1/8&quot; thick. If I use even the thinnest of leathers, its over 1/8&quot; and my shelf is illegal. Or if I buy sealskin to use on my shelf (like O.L. Adcock) it measures about 3/16 to 1/4&quot; and that is illegal. If I got out my razor and gave my sealskin a haircut, it might work. Just curious, tell me how thick is your shelf material? Have you measured it?

If you have read the rules, I proposed in one of my first posts, you have failed to give me any constructive criticism on a single rule, or how it would have a negative impact on the &quot;Traditional&quot; Class. Or, how adopting such rules would exclude anyone. You seem to be interested in the distance, but not enough to care what they tell you it will be. &quot;I will go along with whatever they decide.&quot;

gg