Deaddeer, Do you think the PGC will even offer an estimate of herd size this season? I think they are going to fake computer troubles and just try to hope nobody asks too many questions.

Because if the herd has not shrunk, but remained stable (sure didn't stay stable in my area) then that means five full years under Dr. Alt and his plan has failed to do what he said it would. Reduce the herd to save the environment. Balance the herd with its habitat was his mantra. And that means he is just practicing a different form of MSY, yet disrupting traditionally good hunting areas at the same time.

If 60+ thousand hunters go without bucks AND we are doing nothing to help the habitat because the herd is bigger than ever, then it would be hard to call our plan a sucess.

If our harvest of bucks does not increase for 2004 then I would say all we have seen up till now was hype and rhetoric, with no substance.

I doubt that we will see preseason population or harvest estimates this year. They said that last years harvest kept the herd stable, so we should have about the same number of preseason deer as we had last year. But, if the buck harvest this year doesn't exceed 175K, it will be hard to convince hunters we have as many deer as we did in 2001 when we harvested 203 K buck.

What's with the personal attack? You haven't even been around here for a long time!


203k was a record high buck harvest. Why do you constantly use that figure to make your claims? 60k hunters didn't get a buck? Not really, maybe from highest harvest ever to lowest harvest under AR. What's the average buck harvest for the past ten years? Doe?

A note about the PGC's numbers. I personally don't believe the herd prediction. HR is working in my area and most areas across the state it's working too. I don't like the numbers and I don't believe them, but we don't have anything else to go by. I base my opinion of these numbers on my personal sightings over the years. This year I've seen more bucks than in any other year. I've also seen less doe than any other year. Over the summer my sightings have shown me a 1:2 B ratio and most does have 1 fawn. Some, of course, have twins....it's not the norm though. I have been seeing an increase in twin fawns as of late though.

It pretty easy to realize why DD speaks of 2001's 203,000 buck harvest. its because it was the last harvest before we started the AR/HR scam. Sooooooo....its not ver y difficult to see we can use 2001 for a reference of before AR/HR. Would you like to use 2000? Oh, thats right it was 203,000 also....hmmmm seems like we were doing pretty good before AR/HR. Don't it?

DD must have you flustered if you had trouble fielding that one.

Apparently you do not like anyone pointing out our three year dropping buck harvests and/or pointing out that our hunting today sends tens of thousands of hunters home without a buck of any kind.....let alone a 'bigger' one.

Theres no more snowballing hunters on the "more and bigger buck" lie. They know that misleading statement was, like AR just a carrot to make hunters want to shoot more does so that they can appease conservation groups and big timber(dcnr?) But it ain't providing better hunting, nor any habitat improvment since the herd is (according to the PGC) bigger than ever before ?

So, I guess the PGC will still huddle in the bunker and not put out any herd estimates this year. They will merely crawl to the entrance of the concrete bunker on Elmerton avenue and crack open the steel door a bit and yell out. " THERES STILL TOO MANY DEER EVERYWHERE, SO SHOOT ALL THE DOES YOU CAN".... then the door will creak shut for another long winter.

To all those hunters who were expecting "better hunting", you got (in modern vernacular) Punk'd! hehehe....

For about the past year DD and I have discussed at great length the deer situation in this state(mostly on the PA boards). He and I both know our opinions and I'm pretty sure we both know they aren't changing. I have no trouble 'fielding' his remarks at all. Sorry, there doesn't seem to be an emoticon for SARCASM! I figured rolling the eye's was close enough....I guess I was wrong about that too! BTW, we actually do agree on a few things....just not anything about AR!

I want a solid answer as to why he compares the highest with the lowest harvest numbers. It can only be to mislead as the last 4 years have been record overall harvests as well.

Let's see here. 203k bucks out of ~900k hunters = 22.6% success rate on buck for the highest ever buck harvest

142k out of ~900k = 15.8% on the lowest year of AR.

I don't have any founded evidence to support this, but I recall for years reading, hearing, etc. that only one in ten hunters bags a buck. If that's true then we're still over the national average....too bad we had so many years of quantity management that left us in a state of greed. When it had to be taken away.

You have to have lows and highs to get an average, otherwise you'll constantly be chasing the target. In this case, herd needs reduced and the b:d ratio needs bettered. I'm seeing both of those happen in my area. I'll predict a higher buck harvest than last year for 2F.

Jason said I dont know about the National average but states like, OH., MD., NJ., DE., VA., WVA all have higher success rates than does PA. Pike

....as long as I get mine, then who cares about other hunters.

Spoken like a true Alty.

Average everything you want in order to parse and make excuses....but less deer STILL equals less deer.

I never said that. How many other hunters am I supposed to care about? I'll take them hunting, I'll teach them how to hunt, but I can't do it all for 1M guys. Hunting has changed. If you don't adapt then you get left behind. If you want your deer led to you on a string then you can't say you're a great hunter and frankly I don't consider that hunting. Creating a huge deer population for nothing more than hunters to fill their tags with is poor management.

I will always get my deer! Do you know why?


You keep saying that and nobody is saying any different. There are less deer. I've said it several times. Is there a reason you think people don't under stand this? I'm not sure what you think I'm making excuses for. I used to see, on average, about 40 deer a night driving my 'usual' route through the ANF. I'm now averaging about 12 deer a night. The diffenece is this: of the 40 deer I used to see it was very uncommon for even one of them to be a buck. On the occaision that I did see a buck it was seldom anything larger than a spike or Y. Now, out of the 12 deer I'm seeing now, I almost always see bucks every night and usually multiple bucks....with legal racks. I'm possitive of seeing 22 different bucks this summer....only about 4 are sub-legal and there are, of course, those that aren't able to be identified, but are bucks for sure. Last evening I took my drive and saw 8 deer.....2 bucks(one legal), 2 doe, 4 fawns.

Jeff, I couldn't find any stat's except one. It stated 15% success rate for bowhunters nationally. I couldn't find any hard facts otherwise. If you can point me in the direction to find them or have links I'd appreciate it. I don't doubt your claims, I'd just like to back it up.

Less deer does in fact equals less deer. You don't have to be Spock to grasp the logical fact. The days of PA being a game farm for malnourished spike bucks is over at last. I'd rather be fortunate to harvest a mature animal once in a decade than to be guaranteed a spike or forkie every time out...But that is just me, I guess.........