Jason, you and Livbucks have left me with very little to say here you've said and said it well.

I do have one thing to point out though, here's a few quotes from this thread.....


The common theme among Alts opponents seems to be what "all" or "most" hunters want. (translation= what that hunter wants.) What's difficult to find is among anti Alties is any reference to whats good for the resource, habitat, etc. Perfect fodder for the PETA types![:'(]

Now here's some quotes from the Alt supporters.....

[quote] My first season hunting the ANF was 1978. We used to see 30-40 does and fawns A DAY! If someone got a buck it was usually a spike. Man, you felt like a big shot shooting that spike, it was a big deal then. But the herd WAS mismanaged BACK THEN, .....severely. PA was just a game farm for malnourished 1.5 year old spike bucks....that WAS sad.
[quote]


The common theme here? We may not like everything either but we will adapt and adjust because whats good for the resource is not just good for hunters but good for the deer, the forest, other game and oh yeah, the people who own a lot of the land where a lot of us hunt!

That simple fact apparently is not shared by Alt, who said that we would have more and bigger buck than we have ever seen before and that AR would double the number of 8 + pt buck. Furthermore , your claim that PA was a game farm for malnourished spikes is pure hogwash. There is no eveidence that after 4 years of Alt's plan that the percentage of spikes in the 1.5 PS herd has decreased or that the number of 8+ pt. buck has come anywhere close to doubling the number harvested in 2002, before any bucks saved by AR were harvested. The harvest of 2.5+ buck only increased by 9.4K from 2002 to 2003, which is only an increase of 18%..

There may still be spikes, but now they get to grow to forks, then sixes or maybe eights,and get a whole lot smarter, and elusive, and harder to hunt, instead of "Gee, I'll wander aimlessly over here and then over there, because my mom just kicked me out, and I have no idea of where I'm going, or what to fear, or if it's safe to go there, because I've not been on my own for long, and
"BAM"

Voice over post mortem: "Wow that's a nice spike, big body on that fella!"

If that were true how did we manage to harvest 86% of the bucks that were carried over from 2002. Remember we carried over 80K from 2002 and harvested 62 K ,2.5+ buck in 2003. After one accounts for non-hunting mortality, that is a harvest rate of 86%.

So you are saying we reduced the buck harvest by 61 K so we could shoot 9.4 K more 6 & 8 pts. That is a lousey deal if you ask me.

Actually, spikes are legal game in Pa. Junior hunters now harvest away freely on them. Maybe an adult doesn't take one but juniors do. Remember Vern Ross said juniors license sales are increasing and that would mean pressure on the sub AR bucks does too.

If the buck harvest had not dropped 3 straight seasons, and we were not looking at a 4th straight drop.... I would give you some credit for saying that some bucks were held over. But the numbers show that due to HR and our zest for taking does, there are not more bucks around today than before AR/HR. Our manadatory efforts today are producing little in the way of buck hunting. Heck we could have done as well with a little education and asking for voluntary support for AR. Then there would be less friction as each hunter could make up his mind what was right for himself.

But noooooooooooo.... wannabe's fell for the carrot. And after all the hype, our herd is supposedly bigger than ever, and we harvest less bucks than before AR/HR.

...and of those less bucks taken we see no bigger racks than before at the processors. Spikes are there, four points too as our Jr. hunters shoot them at will.

For all the hype, not much evidence to suggest its better hunting. As a matter of fact for those who see less and for the tens of thousands of hutners who don't take buck now...its fair to say its worse. [:'(]

Well it looks like your true colors are showing. Begrudging a 12 year old his first buck because you cant shoot them anymore[:'(][:'(][:'(]

the sub AR bucks killed by our Juniors are statistically insignificant so it must be pure selfishness and jealousy behind your last post[:'(]

hehehe... now you're really getting silly. Too funny.

In your effort to fling some slime, you didn't aim well. Military folks and kids can all shoot sub AR bucks. And its not insignifigant because it was Dr. Alts team who objected to the PGC (the 8 commissioners) passing that undermining reg!

Ooooooooo.... your valiant Dr. Alt was the one who wanted to begrudge our fabled youth of pa and fighting ment and women 'any deer'. hehehe... you kind of walked right into that one sport!

Twas your deer team who said the results were not insignifigant, no matter how much you wish it to be otherwise.

Fact remains as I pointed out, dropping buck harvests for 3 seasons and we are looking at a 4th. Thats tens of thousands of hunters who go buckless and have to settle for a consolation prize... a doe.

Let me think about the math here for a minute... thousands less... X 4 seasons..... YEP! less deer really does equal less deer.

Holy crap, are you serious? Does less deer really equal less deer? Funny, this still isn't a debated issue, but you seem to think it is. And as far as a declining buck harvest this year....purely specualtion on your part.

I think we're going to see a decline in the overall harvest this year, but the buck harvest will go up. That's my prediction for the 2004-2005 season.

Wrong again, SPORT! The term statistically insignificant was one first heard directly from Gary Alt's lips to my ears when he was questioned by a greedy ME ME ME type just like you , who was whining about the kids having a chance to kill a smaller buck that he would not be allowed to shoot.

Yes, again, less deer= less deer! We all understand that. What you refuse to accept is that less deer= what's needed.

Allowing junior hunters to take sub AR bucks shows me that the GC does value hunters and wants to recruit new people to the sport. The success ratio is believed to be insignificant. The expectation of success for these young people however, is of great measure. If you take away the hope of success to a young hunter, or make it that complicated, they will lose interest. A junior hunter is excited enough when a shot oportunity comes that we don't need to frustrate them by making them pass on the shot. This is probably the most significant thing they could do to ensure the future of deer hunting. Commissioners think of things like this, a biologist might miss this human aspect of overseeing a game species. Once again, kudos to the GC!