"I think that the issue in many areas is that people have become spoiled over the last couple decades when deer populations have hit all time modern highs in many areas. In many areas it became damn near childs play to fill a tag and didn't require a massive effort to get a decent buck."

Is that why far less than half killed a deer most years? Is that why Even in our highest buck harvest year ever, less than one in five took ANY buck? Let alone a "decent one". Sorry but this is a long ways from Illinois lanse. Now or previously. There is also a helluva long ways between the past conditions and the present, and I think most would like to see that area explored, and rightfully so.

" So, they are easy to disappoint if there is any kind of dip in deer numbers or harvest rates."

Yeah. And 40- 50 year low buck harvests prove how easy we here in Pa are to disappoint. I know your generalizing about hunting in general, but our situation is about as far from "the norm" as it gets.

DougE,

Your stories put me in mind of my Father. He started deer hunting seriously right about the time that the population really started taking off. He pretty much developed into someone who is really just interested in the big buck, and since the early 90s it has been relatively easy to bag one annually. So, even though he remembers the earlier era of very low deer numbers and bucks being few and far between, he is quick to complain if he has to hunt more than a couple days to get a crack at a big buck. Of course, when he talks about how crappy deer hunting is becoming he is using selective memory and also ignoring the fact that he very regularly passes on does and smaller bucks. So, I take his opinion with a grain of salt, since I've been around enough hardcore deer hunters to know that they are about the hardest type of hunters to please. For many, anything less than a trophy buck on the first day of season and things are going to hell in a handbasket.

I can't wait to hear his complaints when some of the new herd reduction policies start taking effect here and the deer heard starts getting down to where it really should be. I may have to put him in touch with Cornie and they can start a support group.

"I can't wait to hear his complaints when some of the new herd reduction policies start taking effect here and the deer heard starts getting down to where it really should be. I may have to put him in touch with Cornie and they can start a support group."

Since you are clearly the expert in your area, can you tell me at what level that "should be" there? Or is it just as long as it is lower than currently because you say so? Is there a "bottom" to the range in deer herd size that would be acceptable as well or maybe that doesnt matter as it does not here in Pa? If you cant answer those but would choose to accept the words of pro's, then how about the wildlife biologist on staff from an antihunting org? would you accept HIS recommendation? He is a biologist afterall. How about an environmentalist extremist? Like a whacko nonhunting concerned audubon joker? These are some issues effecting Pa. We DONT take their word for the ridiculous extremes and audubon type yo-yos have no place dictating our game management here. Have Mike Tonkovich Or previous head biologist down in Georgia, Kent Kammermyer come and tell us what we should be doing and run our program and I'll buy it. KNOWN prohunting biologists both and Id take their word as gospel if they were to in depth analyze our situation an structure a plan. Im sure there are others since noone in the nation is doing the nonsense we are here, but the 2 mentioned are two I have a good bit of knowledge of and respect greatly.

Not too certain Im interested in your take on things anyway. You arent very interested in deer hunting in general after having read several of your posts in other threads, you arent from Pa. you dont hunt in Pa, not even very familiar with our management plan details...not really sure why we are even having this conversation other than perhaps youre lonely or something??

Sounds like your dad may be a little more "grounded" in his positions than his new-age environmentalist thinking son. According to your logic any and every very experienced hunter such as myself whos has a higher than normal rate of success should go without seeing anything, and have the opportunity to pass on nothing before having legitimate in your opinion room to complain about management?? Thats what Im hearing here. And thats pure unadulterated nonsense.

this is EXACT comment from the out of area camp/landowners.they say,SPROUL DOESNT CLINTON COUNTY WANT US COMING HERE TO SPEND OUR MONEY?well, county says,YOU FOLKS HAVE BEEN GETTING AWAY WITH PAYING LITTLE FOR MANY YEARS WHILE WE HAVE TO MAINTAIN ROADS ETC.
the hunters/camp owners TODAY are bringing in their food, gas etc and not buying local when they come. they used to do it but the local stores have jacked their prices way up and the out of area people are bringing the stuff with them now.
then ones that are fed up sell their camps on taxes, NEW JERSEY groups buy them sight not seen.
so we have different group now,old group used to let you hunt on land,NEW group posts it........

2 years ago you could not find a camp for sale, now they are everywhere.lack of deer and taxes/costs of things to maintain and the husbands not being allowed to camp by wives ,camps are for sale.

New Age Environmentalist? Thanks Cornie for my laugh aloud moment of the day. But I guess that if that term is gonna be applied to those who want to see deer populations down to manageable levels and whose entire existence don't revolve around being able to tag the biggest buck with the least effort year after year on the closest WMU, then I guess you can sign me up for membership in the New Age Environmentalist club. Of course, its not surprising that you can closely relate to my Fathers perspective since he has been slightly senile for quite some time.

Promise me you will never change.....

Sproulman: The whole notion of outsiders coming in and buying up land is occurring in lots of places. It inevitably drives up land prices and it is not surprising that tax increases follow. Of course, that is most often found in areas where deer populations are allowed to reach very high levels and big buck fever dominates. You generally don't see rich folks from out of town coming in and buying up local ground if the deer population and harvest rates, especially big buck harvest rates, are more modest. The bad thing about having deer herds so huge that anybody can just about anyone can kill one is that pretty soon just about everyone is showing up on your own home turf to do it. Just another example of why folks who yearn for unprecedented deer populations should be careful of that they wish for.

Here you go lanse, a like minded individual. this from audubons website in article about their slaughter the deer campaign:

"Deer hunter and outdoor writer Ben Moyer has enjoyed the wildflowers in the hollows along the (Pa side of) West Virginia border since he was a child. Each year there have been fewer. Two springs ago he was admiring about a dozen large white trilliums where there had been hundreds when a herd of deer appeared and consumed every one. "

Lmao. How dare those deer eat a flower out in the middle of the forest!!! Sounds like a solid base for YOUR support group until that pesky herd of 150 lb rats gets reduced out there in Illinois to your liking.

"New Age Environmentalist? Thanks Cornie for my laugh aloud moment of the day."

I didnt say you were one. I said you were thinking like one. And I stand by that assessment according to many of your recent posts content and lack of rationale.

" Of course, its not surprising that you can closely relate to my Fathers perspective since he has been slightly senile for quite some time. "

They say the apple doesnt fall too far from the tree. Speaking so poorly of ol' dad would suggest you two arent the greatest of Pals. Pretty good when you cant get along with your own dad. Im guessing hes not really "senile" otherwise, someone should probably take the weapon off of him deer season.

"Promise me you will never change....."

If I thought that a sincere request, I probably would, because that would mean something was badly amiss with my logic.

lanse, almost all new jersey hunters are coming in as DISABLED........i was shocked to see how many are coming in.by being DISABLED they are allowed to use a ATV .most of these guys are using them and climbing trees with treestands ,climbing type.they sit there all day.a lot are very young, like 45 to 55..
this is driving locals nuts.they are disturbing the area we hunt with noisy ATV.
this is another reason they are here........

Actually, I get together quite well with my father, largely because when he gets on his soapbox about deer populations I consider the source and don't give it much credence since it doesn't make much sense when you consider it from a broad objective perspective. My perspective seems to be shared since Illinois has recently implemented a deer reduction program. I don't know that it will be too effective since folks who sound surprisingly like you wanted a watered down reduction plan so as to not cut into their easy big buck pickings. So, when the numbers don't drop like they should and pretty dramatic measures are then required that cause a very sharp (but still needed) reduction, the same people are gonna be screaming as loud as you are in PA. I consider this forum a practice for eventually having to deal with them.

Sproulman: Well, my part of the country has not yet been flooded with disabled folks from New Jersey who are buying up all the land and deer camps, but we get our share of outsiders coming in. We have several people from Georgia who came into the area after the deer numbers got really high and bought land. And the out-of-state folks coming in to lease ground is really just starting to get rolling. I think that lots of those folks are gonna be lots less enthusiatic about doing that once the deer population starts dropping to the point that filling ones tag actually becomes a challenge.

I am now experimenting with a New Age Environmentalist philosophy that seeks a 30 percent herd reduction through the power of free love.

"Actually, I get together quite well with my father, largely because when he gets on his soapbox about deer populations I consider the source and don't give it much credence..."

Yeah. Sure sounds like it. lol

"since it doesn't make much sense when you consider it from a broad objective perspective. My perspective seems to be shared since Illinois has recently implemented a deer reduction program."

Then whats the problem with you taking this "preaching of the word" to your own forum... One you actually have a stake in, where guys are complaining last I checked.

" I don't know that it will be too effective since folks who sound surprisingly like you wanted a watered down reduction plan so as to not cut into their easy big buck pickings. So, when the numbers don't drop like they should and pretty dramatic measures are then required that cause a very sharp (but still needed) reduction, the same people are gonna be screaming as loud as you are in PA."

Oh absolutely if that ever ends up being the case. And rightfully so. Would be something wrong with them if they didnt.

"I consider this forum a practice for eventually having to deal with them."

Wow, you go against dad due to your beliefs even calling the guy senile, you practice arguments in threads about states you have absolutely nothing to do with, so you can "practice" for defending very very extreme practices? Sheesh, if that doesnt sound like the beliefs of an environmental extremist Im not sure what the hell is!!!!

Lets face it, those type arent exactly gonna log in... say "hello fellas, im from the woodpecker lane chapter of (pick state) audubon society (or similar obtuse econut group), id like to tell you all how stupid you all are and hopefully you'll then see things my way, btw, i love wildflowers and such."

But since none of that happened, I guess its safe to assume NONE of us on this board or any of the others have that type of agenda right?

There are several known WHACKO audubon mouthpieces whove claimed at least to be avid hunters, so that alone is meaningless. Their views are no more acceptable or reasonable whether they are being truthful or not.