RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

To provide a CURRENT more accurate depictionof what our harvest per sm is, Without adding in data from our previously very high herd, andgoing with most recent known harvest of 07/08, we rank SIXTH our of the 10 states you compared. With 7.014 deer harvesteds per sm..[8D]

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

Whoops! Hey Blueboy! You forgot to sign off and back on! You posted one of your Bluetwist partial facts with no backup but you signed on as Cornyto post your distortion! Sure lets pick just one year, provide no numbers for other states. Thats real credible.... NOT

BTW 2007 was the worst weather year in ages for the gun season. Now a 5 year average ending with 2008 for all states would be fair but thats probably not available yet.

How about a five year average ending in 2007? 2002 would be out. Go do yourhomework and get back to us eh? BTW, why not present it the way RSB did? list all states and all the data. For someone who claims PGC distortions, you sure put up a weak arguement.

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

Is that outfitter planting/ maintaining food plots in the ANF? I thought that was illegal. My question is serious, I'm not detracting from the outfitter. If he is getting bucks like that out of the ANF, he is doing something right. And his rates are surprisingly low. Most midwest 3 day bowhunts for a 140 class deer you are looking at $1500+. Fully guided for $500 is about as cheap as they come. If you have any more info on how they are consistently getting bucks of that caliber from public land, lemme know. To harvest one trophy caliber deer from public land in PA is an accomplishment, and the NC mountains at that. To be geting them like that every year does raise an eyebrow.

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

Since you apparently have far much more time on your hands than me, how about adding two additional columns:
1. Total 2007-2008 Buck harvest datafor those states listed
2. Combined PGC & PFBC 2007-2008 expendatures along with the same for all of those states you have listed?

That should provide some real entertaining reading.

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

To my knowledge he isn't planting anything. That would just draw a crowd on public land anyway. I have learned how thy're doing it and fror obvious reasons, I'm not going to divulge everything because it is public ground and I do hunt in the area. Suffice it to say that when I heard what they were doing all I could say was "I'll be damned"!

I have not hunted with him andhave no affiliationwith himand I only know the family because they run the archery shop in the area. I have heard froma local what some of their methods are and I can say I admire their ingenuity.Rest assuredthey are operating legally. They simply get in where very few will go. Public ground, everything is legal, but access is not without extra effort and cleverness.

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

RSB knows EXACTLY what he is doing and why. Using three and five year averages covers up the current decreases. I have tried to get him to at least us a rolling average on HPA and was close to being banned for that. Anyone with half a brain knows what he is doing and that the current years harvest is the most important and the previous years gives you the trend.

If you use RSB'swayof calculating our current economic indicators, those without jobs are too lazy to work, housing starts are slightly down and gas has probably averaged a little over $2 a gallon, etc., etc.

To me, RSB is full of it up to his ears and the rest is toilet paper. But with all the brown nosers around, he will soon be full of it up to his eyebrows. I'm just thankful we have some dedicated hunters that read and keep tract of current study and information provided by the PGC.

For those that live out of state and want to hunt here in PA. Don't bother coming unless you have some private land to hunt on as the PGC has no idea what is harvested on private land vs public.

Based on the harvest totals, you have a one in four chance of harvesting an antlerless deer, with a 50% chance of that harvest an adult doe and a 50% of it being a fawn. If you hunted here before AR and HR, your chance of seeing a deer are 50% less now and somewhere around %55 of harvesting a buck.

Welcome to PA wilds, leave your guns and ammo at home, come and enjoy our forests and gameless lands. I won't stop hunting PA after 54 years, because I have Senior Lifetime License, but I'm looking forward to hunting N.Y. next season for the first time.

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

BTB, the suspense is killing me....I seriously want to know what ace in the hole they found to consistently and legally bag bucks like that every year on the ANF. But I'm pretty sure you're not going to share the wealth. Is it a tactic that the average joe is able to do in his given area without incurring major expenses or obstacles? Is it something crazy like flying their clients back in a helicopter to remote areas too far to allow reasonbale accessibility on foot?Coalcracker, good luck in NY. I believe you'll find more deer and a better managed herd there. For me, it'll be MD....my buddy has exclusive access to some small parcels in Baltimore co, where the herd really does need reduced ( thus no guilt trips for bagging a doe or two) and there are some whopper bucks around.

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

My guess is they have a large group of guys that put on big drives all day.

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

Helicopters? nope.

Group size? Dont really know

Could any regular joe do it? Yes

Easy? No

Sorry guys, but I simply can't/won't because it's a very good, ingenious actually, idea that I have every intention of utilizing and if I post it on the net, it will get stomped all over by the masses.

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

Coalcracker,I don't know here you come up with the stuff you post.when was the last time you hunted inthe Pa wilds?

Ihunted the first day of bucks season on state forest dmap'sland in 2G.Ihad to pass on a buck that was thick tal and close to 20 inches.On the first saturday,I could have shot another legal buck on that same state forest.On the last day,I went to another dmap area to fill my last rifle season tag and I could have killed another buck.I hunted three days in rifle season on public land in 2G and had to pass bucks all three days.Incidentally,I only spent two days in the one area before the season.The other area was my first time I stepped foot on that mountain since the last day last year,when I had to pass another buck.

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

"How about a five year average ending in 2007? 2002 would be out. Go do yourhomework and get back to us eh?"

2003 reduction was still in progress according to pgc. In fact, it couldvery well be argued that it still is.

"BTW, why not present it the way RSB did?"

Because 5 years ago is not representative of today when there is/was ongoing hr.

"list all states and all the data."

As soon as you start paying meby the hour.

"For someone who claims PGC distortions, you sure put up a weak arguement"

Coming from a very honest individual as Ive proven time and again.

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

To make this easier on all of us to "quote" someone is as easy as putting this at the end([/qoute] )and this in front of thier words ([qoute]) .
Just spell quote the right way

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

You don't have to spell "quote"
Just hit the quote button above the message block and paste the quote in between the quotes in brackets.

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

YEah, Jim. I know how. Think Ive even used it once or twice. I usually don't because it takes up so much more space in long posts or posts with several quotes. I'll try & keep it clearer for ya though by using the quote function once in awhile on short posts, otherwise I'll try and remember toadd bold text or color to separate.;)

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

Using 5 year averages during a period when the gaol was to reduce the herd by almost 50% is simply ridiculous and of absolutely no value.


Estimated Deer Harvest
Antlered Bucks 1.5 Years & Older Antlerless Deer
State 2001 2003 2005 2001 2003 2005
Alabama 181,280 217,360 183,040 229,420 317,640 257,960
Arizona 3,659 4,324 4,647 * * *
Arkansas * 65,607 72,486 * 42,540 58,971
Colorado * * * * * *
Connecticut 5,936 4,531 6,082 6,013 6,783 7,446
Delaware * * 4,269 * * 9,768
Florida 78,653 78,841 * 29,744 39,110 0
Georgia 137,746 119,270 98,455 308,254 364,630 214,276
Idaho * * * * * *
Illinois 68,224 70,618 81,774 82,457 92,678 121,734
Indiana 48,357 49,533 52,488 54,806 57,453 73,038
Iowa 61,867 69,600 69,260 78,621 124,912 142,191
Kansas * * * * * *
Kentucky 47,697 54,188 48,690 55,640 62,352 63,722
Louisiana 118,832 111,350 108,784 93,368 111,350 100,416
Maine 16,798 16,185 15,261 10,971 14,128 12,887
Maryland 41,080 37,704 32,837 42,707 49,519 61,215
Massachusetts 5,130 5,667 5,669 4,780 6,369 6,363
Michigan 235,000 254,000 218,000 223,000 241,000 196,000
Minnesota 106,000 120,000 106,000 111,000 170,000 149,000
Mississippi 145,117 118,938 144,118 142,423 127,912 141,012
Missouri 116,293 109,597 103,973 147,681 181,034 183,563
Montana * * * * * *
Nebraska 26,930 24,482 29,876 22,000 19,900 19,800
New Hampshire 5,981 5,828 6,127 3,162 3,664 4,468
New Jersey 20,734 23,307 20,508 49,236 46,149 39,145
New Mexico * * * * * *
New York 127,084 107,533 89,015 154,786 145,555 91,199
North Carolina 109,399 117,808 139,486 88,960 89,441 118,272
North Dakota * * * * * *
Ohio 73,241 83,955 83,161 89,392 112,129 126,352
Oklahoma 54,045 54,831 57,756 47,590 45,781 43,355
Oregon * * 1,013 * * *
Pennsylvania 203,000 142,000 121,000 283,000 323,000 234,000
Rhode Island 463 960 1,133 443 756 1,133
South Carolina 141,000 123,000 112,000 167,000 150,000 132,000
South Dakota 26,721 26,502 31,464 22,037 31,520 38,320
Tennessee 48,877 45,631 38,687 69,070 71,741 81,784
Texas 219,434 242,937 247,026 175,726 189,917 217,352
Utah * * * * * *
Vermont 9,439 9,194 4,956 5,626 5,334 3,590
Virginia 110,659 116,629 101,041 101,874 117,243 114,041
Washington * * * * * *
West Virginia * * * 69,079 89,065 47,447
Wisconsin 183,000 193,000 183,000 262,000 251,000 274,000
Wyoming 6,231 6,851 7,429 3,407 3,477 4,904*Information not available

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

"Using 5 year averages during a period when the gaol was to reduce the herd by almost 50% is simply ridiculous and of absolutely no value. "

And anyone that disagrees is simply trying to fool people. I dont believe that there is one poster on this board that isnt smart enough to understand that basic statement. You simply don't point to years when we had many more deer and say this is how we have it now, after the herds been reduced !!

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

We all know that you are the greatest hunter East of the Mississippi, but your too modest to brag about it or take your buck kills in for measuring.

I seem to recall that you shot a small but legal buck on your Treasure Lake Preserve, also could have shot another buckwhile hunting public land during the two week season. Now it's up to three buck on three days of hunting, you truly are the greatest. Are you sure that there weren't four or five buck running together on each of those three days you were hunting?

Why would I want to hunt the NC when I lived five miles away from Jim Thorpe, which is considered the gateway to the Poconos? Oh by the way Doug, there were ferns in the poconos in themid 50's when I started hunting.

Say hello to your forester friend for me,that's the one that marks a trail for you to follow into the stand he picked for you.

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

Picking out just one year even if it was after vs before HR is not reliable either. 2007 was the worst weather in quite a long time for the gun season.

It's also notable that you didn't post the other states but made the claim that PA is sixth. Guess what skippy? We know what you did. You used RSB's numbers for the other states. Guess what else? You didn't bother to check the facts and you're wrong! Thats why you wont post the other states.

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

Wrong Again. We had terrible weather the first two days in 2005.

After the 2007 season the PGC changed their story and claimed the buck harvest did not recover during the rest of the season even though the doe harvest did recover, The simple fact is the 2007 buck harvest represented the continuous downward trend in the buck harvests.

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

So where's the data on the other states for 2007 ????

I know but I'm waiting to see how you'll try and wiggle out of this one:D

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

Coalcracker,I hunted 4 weeks in TL before I killed a buck.Two days after that,I had a slammer within 24 yards of me but couldn't shoot.I put Mike Foust in that spot and he ended up taking a different 20 inch 8 point on the last friday.I don't suppose you belong to the UBP but if you did,he's inside the front cover of their latest publication.I hunted three days during rifle season on public land.I could have killed a buck each day but ended up filling two more dmap tags.The saturday after Christmas I hunted TL to fill my last dmap and saw several bucks chasing some doe.The one buck was over 18 inches and offered me severalshots.TL doesn't count though.Point is,I hunted three days on the public land that say isn't worth hunting and killed two doe and had to pass up three bucks.I never said anything about being a great or even good hunter.

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

consider yourself fortunate doug because there's very very few places in PA on state land with deer hunting like that.I've searched and searched and haven't found any.Found good and bad habitat yet very poor deer numbers.I've been hunting the better part of 30 years and know what to look for.I've killed alot of bucks including some nice racks on public land before AR but I'll be darned if I've found anything close to what you are describing.At least not in the last 6 years or so.Maybe I'm missing something.Sure we're still killing bucks but on private land.

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

Comparing our 5 year average total harvest to other states was nothing but a cheap ploy by RSB to divert attention away fro the 46% reduction in our buck harvest and the 5% decline in breeding rates.

The fact that you ask for the 2007 data from other states proves once again you don't understand the implications of your request. Our harvest numbers continued to drop after 2005, which would me our ranking would be even lower than in 2005,since other states have not reduced their herds nearly as much as PA.

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

BTB, you wanna do all 50 states? Knock yourself out. I have no reason to. Pa isnt 1st as RSB claimed in harvest, (not that it would be a good thing if we were!) and the point all along was that Pas hunting is pathetic in general when compared to "good" deer hunting states, and its getting worse.

We are the laughing stock of the nation, and wether our harvest fell 5th, 6th or 7th out of the ten states mentioned, thats not gonna change a thing, because if we are to stabilize our herd or god forbid allow reasonable increases, our harvest shouldnt be ANYWHERE NEAR number 1 with our current herd size.

You cant keep harvestsexceeding recruitment and expect better hunting. The quality, also being what it is, doesnt permit pgc to even be mentioned with other "good" states, unless THEY are telling jokes about Pa. OR if you are an ecoextremist trying to support a failed program at all cost for the sake of the greater eastern long-nosed wood shrew! (LOL):D

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

Rich,Try SGL 93 and 77.Both have a ton of deer.I didn't hunt deer there this year but did hunt turkey alot in both places.I saw on average at least a dozen deer each morning I went out.I ride horses on SGL 93 quite a bit and see plenty of deer.I hunted the first day and the first saturday of rifle season on Evans fire tower rd in Penfield.All public land,few hunters and plenty of deer.I also spend alot of time on Seneca resource property,which runs into Moshannon state forest.I didn't hunt deer on it this year because I was late sending in for dmap's.Last year and the year before I killed two deer and saw loads in there.I walkedsome of that property after Christmas and saw sign all over the place.It's timber company land but it's dmap'dand open to the public.I also see deer everytime I hunt in Sinnemahoning.That's tough country up there but it keeps pressure to a minimum.Seriously Rich,there's good hunting all over this area on public land.You just have to stay away from the areas with no food,like Rockton mountain and SB elliot.Give me a call,the next time your at camp and I'll show you all of these places.

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

You were the one who claimed we were 6th for 2007. I'm simply asking you to back up what you said. Since you've dodged that demand several times now it is obvious that you didnt have any numbers for the other states and youmade up your 6th place claim. Dont bother with all 50. Just give us the top 10 like RSB did. It's thefair thing to do since your post was an attempt to refute his.

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

here is why PA had the highest harvest rate based on the 5 year average. Due to HR we were harvesting a higher percentage of antlerless deer than any other state in the top 10. In 2005 our antler to antlerless ration was 1:1.93. In MD it was 1:1.84 and in Wisc. it was only 1:1.5. So the only reason PA had the highest harvest rate PSM is because we were slaughtering our doe herd.

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

Still no numbers for other states to back up grasshoppers claim.He has learned well from you master!

You fail to mention that many, if not most states, are under HR programs as well. But why bother with truthful details eh bluetwist?

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

"You were the one who claimed we were 6th for 2007. I'm simply asking you to back up what you said. Since you've dodged that demand several times now it is obvious that you didnt have any numbers for the other states and youmade up your 6th place claim. Dont bother with all 50. Just give us the top 10 like RSB did. It's thefair thing to do since your post was an attempt to refute his."

Your first mistake was making a demand to me. Not a very good way to get results. I dont generally take commands.(LOL) Second,Unlike you with the truth as has been pointed out on several issues, I didnt dodge anything. I believe Id addressed you more than adequately. If you didnt understand. Reread. If you still dont understand, ask someone for help. All points have been made and nothing further is necessary. Your rediculous statement of Pa being one of the best deer states in the country was a joke, and thats that.

Also, RSB tried to manipulate data to show something it didnt. Its been pointed out the tactics were deceptive and nothing more. We arent 1st in harvest, and only reason we were in the past is because we were on a doe slaughtering foray and the harvests were way too high thanks to pgcs management plan. And no, thats not an indicator of our present fine hunting....its NOT a good thing to have overharvested, and even continue to do so even with lower harvests due to herd size. And our pathetic quality is also well known.

I dont think much more need said. Not sure how you spend your evening, but if you think Im gonna bother looking up deer harvests for 10 states in 2007 then the square miles of each state to divide into, to make absolutelyno point whatsoever (LOL) you have rocks in your noggin. I threw the one recent apppropriate year for Pa into the mix, and you saw the results. Good enough for me. Especially when you consider states reporting compliance rates vary, and some dont even estimate harvests as pa does, but only counts harvests actually reported.

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

You are right that many states are trying to reduce their herd and NJ even has an earn a buck program . but their antlered to antlerless ratio was 1:1.85 compared to 1:1.03 for PA.

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

"You fail to mention that many, if not most states, are under HR programs as well. But why bother with truthful details eh bluetwist? "

I didnt see bb or anyone other than you and RSB try to correlate our hunting as the best in the nation with our rediculous overharvest of the past. There are also few if any states practicing as extreme hr as we are.;)

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

Still cant produce those numbers can you?

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

I never said I was going to. I already plugged the 2007 data into rsb lil' chart for a basic comparison.Wether his was accurate or not, couldnt care less, itproved him wrong. Certainly suited my purposes.:eek:

Just to completely waste 10 minutes, I did the first two states on RSB's list to humor you and show RSB was still full of hot air when using single season data from 2007. Maryland was 7.43 dpsm. Wisconsin came in at 7.91. Pa was 7.01.

How many others are ahead of Pa? Who knows? Who cares? As explained, its a meaningless stat by itself. Depending on other variables having very high harvest can be good, or it can be very bad.

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

Yep it certainly suited your purposes. Of course, your purpose was to distort the facts. In other words you lied.

You said it all right here: Ha Ha Ha LOL LOL

You take the results from the worst possibly year you could use and yes weather was part of it and compare it against a five year average for other states who by the way are doing their own HR.

Bluetwist would be proud of you except that you haven't learned all his lessons grasshopper. Youadmitted to using an apple to compare with an orange. If you'd been paying attention to the master, you would know that he never admits it even when it's put there in black and white for all to see.

Oh wait, I forgot to say it in a way you can comprehend..........

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

I used results from the latest most current year available from pgc.

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

The excessive harvest of does that reduces the buck harvest by 46% is not something to be proud of ,but that is what you and RSB is bragging about. but PGC supporters wear blinders that protect them from seeing the truth and the PGC should issue those blinders to very hunter that buys a license and then the PGC might get their license fee increase.

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

They know the truth. Dont kid yourself. Noones that stupid. What they do is called damage control.

When people blatantly lie, go far out of their way to manipulate data to try and portray a desired result other than reality. Argue 100% against anything and everything, even the abolute proven and absolute obvious.... Im not buying the "just another joe hunter" story. Ive been around sites like hpa long enough to know what is going on, and its not good.

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

I disagree. i actually believe that BTB , BWJ , RSB and Doug E are stupid enough to believe what they are posting and that is really scary.

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

And compared it to an average of five different years from other states.

Apples vs oranges. Period. Done intentionally makes it a lie. Period.

RE: Pennsylvania hunters about to be "HOSED"
 

Sorry. No dice.