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pa antler restrictions yes or no?
Anybody else hate the antler restrictions in pa? i havent got a buck since...
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RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 Here we go again! |
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
Mind boggling.
:eek: |
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
Not to get this argument started but, I have noticed that the bucks we see on our farm in the past few years have by and large been much bigger than the deer we saw when we first moved there 10 years ago. I was against the restrictions at the beginning but i can now see the effect that it is having on the deer herd. Don't jump all over me this is just my 2 cents!
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RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
I was against them at first but changing my tune. At first I didn't like taking out the young deer with the best genetics. I'm sure a lot of spikes are saved and a lot of yearling 5,6,7 and 8 points are shot. Then I started thinking it was a good thing but still figured folks should be able to shoot what they want. Now I've shot a few decent bucks and would never shoot a spike or fork again so it doesn't bother me.
Actually, I can't remember the last time I saw a spike. I have seen 11 eight pointers though. |
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
Weve been killing nice bucks in NY for years and years without antler restrictions.
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RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
OK I'll do my best try to put in a comment here without riling anyone.
Besides the notable improvement in the quality of bucks being harvested, I think the most positive result from AR is the drift away from the mindset that a 3 inch spike was somehow something to be more valued and proud of than harvesting a doe. How many times did we hear this in the old days: It's only a spike orforkie but at least I got my buck! AR was something that was a little oversold to us like everything else is these days. Now that we've seen some results and more research has emerged over the past few years, I think we can agree that our point restriction is never going to turn PA into an Iowa, Kansas or Illinois. It has undisputably improved the quality of the bucks we see harvested. It's been pretty well proven that a spread restriction is more effective than our point count but I think a point count was our most realistic way to ease 900,000 into a new way of thinking about our buck crop. I now hear guys talking in terms of the bucks age rather than his antler points. Thats from a culture change that wouldn't have happened herewithout our having started withthe point restriction. It's also been pretty well proven by extensive research that young bucks with smaller antlers are not inferior genetically but it's more likely that they were born later in their first year than the better racked young bucks. Most bucks equalizeat age 41/2 but very few get there in PA. The point here is that we arent having any real effect on the gene pool, good or bad. I think BarnesX.308 said it very well: I was against them at first but changing my tune. At first I didn't like taking out the young deer with the best genetics. I'm sure a lot of spikes are saved and a lot of yearling 5,6,7 and 8 points are shot. Then I started thinking it was a good thing but still figured folks should be able to shoot what they want. Now I've shot a few decent bucks and would never shoot a spike or fork again so it doesn't bother me. Actually, I can't remember the last time I saw a spike. I have seen 11 eight pointers though. |
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
I love it, the quality of the bucks are so much better. Now all we need to do is stop slaughtering the doe during buck season.
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RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
Now all we need to do is stop slaughtering the doe during buck season. |
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
Boy wait till RSB gets ahold of this one,I see another sermon on the horizon.Personally,i'm against it even though I don't shoot anything small anymore.
My theory is if a buck doesn't mature till he's 5-6 years old chances are he's never gonna make it past 2 or 3 in this state anyhow so we're just prolonging the inevitable.If these 1 1/2 year old spikes and forkhorns are not genetically inferior as once belived,by the time there 2 or 3 and are harvestable under the AR,chances are they're gonna get it before they get to maturity anyhow. |
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
PA hunter have turned into MEAT hunters, they won't hunt a WMU unless they have an antlerless tag for that area.
How you can take a harvest of 200,000 bucks to 100,000 and call it a success, is beyond me. We had a four point to the side and antlers as wide as the ears restriction, on my property before PA made it a low. This is private land and we pratice most of the QDM, but that's where it belong, on private land. |
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
It has just changed the hunting camps ways, it has changed my ways of hunting. It doesn't matter what we think, it doesn't matter the herd is in the hands of the PAPGC to do with as they please. They can have all the public meetings they want. the agenda was decided and set before the public had a chance. So live w/ it.
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RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
get out of your truck for longer than it takes to go to the bathroom and maybe you will be able to get one. |
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
It has undisputably improved the quality of the bucks we see harvested. It's also been pretty well proven by extensive research that young bucks with smaller antlers are not inferior genetically but it's more likely that they were born later in their first year than the better racked young bucks The best thing to come from AR was to start a change in the mindset of the average PA hunter. More and more hunters are drifting away from that idea of shooting the first thing with a bone on it's head to being willing to kick it up a notch. There is no evidence to support that claim. Hunters are still shooting broken rack 3 pts. and scrub racked 1.5, 4 or 5 pts. and the average buck harvested still only has 7 points. |
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
I don't have a problem with the restrictions, I shot my last 4 pointer 20 years ago,but I do have a problem with the doe andBB harvest on public land.[:@]
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RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
Deleted for skirting the profanity filter, violation of posting rule number 1.
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RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
Twisting things again. The studies have shown that late born buck fawns make up the vast majority of 1.5 spikes. They used to simply die their first year. Now they have a chance to grow a better set their second year and there is zero negative effect on the gene pool by letting that spike live to breed hi second year. Is there some link to the "evidence" for what I said? Nope! But if you'd get your a$$ off the computer chair and your head out of your thousands of homemade spreadsheets and charts and get out in the real world you would know better than to dispute that statement. Citing broken rack 3 points and scrub rack 4's and 5's to make your point shows how desperate you are to dispute anyhting that doesnt fit your negative agenda. The simple fact is the PGC hasn't provided one iota of data that shows our 2.5+ buck are of any better quality than before ARs If they had that dat you can rest assure that it would be making headlines in the PGC press releases. After just 3 years of ARs NY released an extensive report on the results of ARs ,but our PGC hasn't released jack squat after 6 years. You are just blowing smoke like RSB and the PGC. |
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
You are not telling the truth. The studies did not determine the age of the spike bucks to a degree that they could determine if they were late born or not. You are simply making things up to support your agenda. |
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
I like the restrictions. I also love seeing big buck!
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RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
That is such a juvenile ploy I am a bit surprised even you would try and play it. The fact is Dr. Rosenberry admitted he didn't know if ARs increased or decreased the rack size of 2.5+ buck.Now here is a simple question for you. Do you know why Dr. R. made that statement?
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RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
The simple fact is the PGC hasn't provided one iota of data that shows our 2.5+ buck are of any better quality than before ARs If they had that dat you can rest assure that it would be making headlines in the PGC press releases. Once again I am going to point out that no one ever told you or anyone else that there would be any change in the antler size of 2 ½ year old bucks with antler restrictions. If you think that is what was said you really do have some serious comprehension deficiencies. Bucks of the same age will not have their antler development influenced by antler restrictions. The antler development will be influenced by the age of the buck along with the nutritional conditions available to the buck. The affects of the food supply and winter conditions will have a great influence on the antler development of the bucks, especially the younger bucks, from one year to the next, but antler restrictions alone has no affect on the antlers of bucks of the same age from one year to another. No one from the Game Commission ever said they did or would produce beter antlers on 2 1/2 year old bucks even though they did say there woudl be more 2 1/2 year old bucks available to hunters, and there are. I really suspect that entire line of thinking, as you promote it, is nothing more then another of your deceptive stunts being used inyour attempt to garner support for your misguided agenda. R.S. Bodenhorn |
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
ORIGINAL: bluebird2 That is such a juvenile ploy I am a bit surprised even you would try and play it. The fact is Dr. Rosenberry admitted he didn't know if ARs increased or decreased the rack size of 2.5+ buck.Now here is a simple question for you. Do you know why Dr. R. made that statement? Once again Bluebird takes the subject of apples and answers with a statement about oranges. You have said twice now that there is no evidence that 2.5 racks are better (or worse) in PA after AR. I agree and again, I say so what? There is no evidence of either because it's not an issue. The issue was to get more bucks to the 2.5 age class. Do you dispute that the average 2.5 buck has better antlers than the average 1.5 buck? Here's a direct question that I bet you'll dodge. Do you deny that you arethe banned member formerly known as deaddeer AKA, ddear AKA deerfly? A simple yes or no would be refreshing Its a shame that the mods apparently dont monitor this area any more. |
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
If you think that is what was said you really do have some serious comprehension deficiencies. Wrong again. We were told we would have more and larger buck than ever before and both claims were a lie.. The only way that could happen is if the 2.5+ buck were larger due to antler restrictions and it didn't happen. No one from the Game Commission ever said they did or would produce beter antlers on 2 1/2 year old bucks even though they did say there woudl be more 2 1/2 year old bucks available to hunters, and there are. The claim was made that by improving the age structure ,the superior dominant 2.5+ buck would do the vast majority of the breeding,thus improving the gene pool and producing bigger racked buck. As a result many hunters believe the 2.5 buck now have bigger racks and weigh more than before ARs. |
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
ORIGINAL: BTBowhunter ORIGINAL: bluebird2 That is such a juvenile ploy I am a bit surprised even you would try and play it. The fact is Dr. Rosenberry admitted he didn't know if ARs increased or decreased the rack size of 2.5+ buck.Now here is a simple question for you. Do you know why Dr. R. made that statement? Once again Bluebird takes the subject of apples and answers with a statement about oranges. You have said twice now that there is no evidence that 2.5 racks are better (or worse) in PA after AR. I agree and again, I say so what? There is no evidence of either because it's not an issue. The issue was to get more bucks to the 2.5 age class. Do you dispute that the average 2.5 buck has better antlers than the average 1.5 buck? Here's a direct question that I bet you'll dodge. Do you deny that you arethe banned member formerly known as deaddeer AKA, ddear AKA deerfly? A simple yes or no would be refreshing Its a shame that the mods apparently dont monitor this area any more. |
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
ORIGINAL: BTBowhunter You are not telling the truth. The studies did not determine the age of the spike bucks to a degree that they could determine if they were late born or not. You are simply making things up to support your agenda. Just like RSB ,BTB doesn't know enough about deer management to defend his position without the protection of the mods. What BTB doesn't realize is that the mods that once protected his views are no longer controlling this MB. |
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
ORIGINAL: bluebird2 If you think that is what was said you really do have some serious comprehension deficiencies. Wrong again. We were told we would have more and larger buck than ever before and both claims were a lie.. The only way that could happen is if the 2.5+ buck were larger due to antler restrictions and it didn't happen. No one from the Game Commission ever said they did or would produce beter antlers on 2 1/2 year old bucks even though they did say there woudl be more 2 1/2 year old bucks available to hunters, and there are. The claim was made that by improving the age structure ,the superior dominant 2.5+ buck would do the vast majority of the breeding,thus improving the gene pool and producing bigger racked buck. As a result many hunters believe the 2.5 buck now have bigger racks and weigh more than before ARs. Having larger antlers on 2 ½ year old bucks most certainly is not the only way you would have more and bigger buck then before antler restrictions. For you to suggest something so absurd clearly proves just how completely clueless you are. Before antler restrictions we killed about 80% of our 1 ½ year old bucks every year. When we went to antler restrictions we started protecting about 50% of those 1 ½ year old bucks and allowing them to live a year longer. Since that then makes those 2 ½ year old instead of 1 ½ year old when they are available for harvest certainly means both more and bigger bucks even though those 2 ½ year old bucks are no larger then previous 2 ½ year old bucks. You do know that 2 ½ year old bucks typically have larger antlers then 1 ½ year old bucks don’t you? Here are the history of 2 ½ year old bucks harvested across the state for the past twenty five years so al can see how close that number has come to doubling since Doctor Alt first brought the topic to the forefront in 1999. Starting in 1999 we started to see some voluntary movement toward antler restrictions among the hunting fraternity so the period between 1998 and 2002 showed some improvement from the previous fifteen years. Years…………..2 ½ and older bucks harvested per square mile 83-87.………………………….0.65 88-92.………………………….0.68 93-97.………………………….0.68 98-02.………………………….1.07 03-07.………………………….1.29 As you can see the number of 2 ½ and older bucks has almost doubled as compared to the old traditional data for 2 ½ and older bucks. I will agree that the total buck numbers probably haven’t doubled yet, but that is most likely only due to the lower fawn recruitment rates we had following those harsh winter years a few years ago. Hunters can’t harvest deer, as adult bucks, when they died within days of being born. As fawn recruitment improves so will the buck harvest, but not until two years later when the those fawns become adult bucks. R.S. Bodenhorn |
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
ORIGINAL: RSB ORIGINAL: bluebird2 If you think that is what was said you really do have some serious comprehension deficiencies. Wrong again. We were told we would have more and larger buck than ever before and both claims were a lie.. The only way that could happen is if the 2.5+ buck were larger due to antler restrictions and it didn't happen. No one from the Game Commission ever said they did or would produce beter antlers on 2 1/2 year old bucks even though they did say there woudl be more 2 1/2 year old bucks available to hunters, and there are. The claim was made that by improving the age structure ,the superior dominant 2.5+ buck would do the vast majority of the breeding,thus improving the gene pool and producing bigger racked buck. As a result many hunters believe the 2.5 buck now have bigger racks and weigh more than before ARs. Having larger antlers on 2 ½ year old bucks most certainly is not the only way you would have more and bigger buck then before antler restrictions. For you to suggest something so absurd clearly proves just how completely clueless you are. Before antler restrictions we killed about 80% of our 1 ½ year old bucks every year. When we went to antler restrictions we started protecting about 50% of those 1 ½ year old bucks and allowing them to live a year longer. Since that then makes those 2 ½ year old instead of 1 ½ year old when they are available for harvest certainly means both more and bigger bucks even though those 2 ½ year old bucks are no larger then previous 2 ½ year old bucks. You do know that 2 ½ year old bucks typically have larger antlers then 1 ½ year old bucks don’t you? Here are the history of 2 ½ year old bucks harvested across the state for the past twenty five years so al can see how close that number has come to doubling since Doctor Alt first brought the topic to the forefront in 1999. Starting in 1999 we started to see some voluntary movement toward antler restrictions among the hunting fraternity so the period between 1998 and 2002 showed some improvement from the previous fifteen years. Years…………..2 ½ and older bucks harvested per square mile 83-87.………………………….0.65 88-92.………………………….0.68 93-97.………………………….0.68 98-02.………………………….1.07 03-07.………………………….1.29 As you can see the number of 2 ½ and older bucks has almost doubled as compared to the old traditional data for 2 ½ and older bucks. I will agree that the total buck numbers probably haven’t doubled yet, but that is most likely only due to the lower fawn recruitment rates we had following those harsh winter years a few years ago. Hunters can’t harvest deer, as adult bucks, when they died within days of being born. As fawn recruitment improves so will the buck harvest, but not until two years later when the those fawns become adult bucks. R.S. Bodenhorn I do know that since AR started the percent of 2 1/2 year old bucks has decreased in numbers and also as a percent of the total harvest, I'm sure RSB would be glad give those number, if not I'm sure Bluebird could give them to you. During the years 1998 and 2002, we harvested 947,701 antlered deer for a five year average of 189,540. During the years 2003 and 2007, we harvested 631,670 antlered deer for a five year average of 126,334. I'm sure your impressed with our manage plan that we harvested over 60,000 less antlered deer per year on average, but it does get better or worse, depending on whether youra hunter or the PGC. During the five year period of 2003 and 2007, all five yearly harvests set a record, we had never shot so fewantlered deer, since the PGC started estimating our harvest in 1986. Let me also point out that our 2007 antlered harvest was 109,200, with 2000 and 2001 having a harvest of over 200,000 in both years. As all of my figures come from the PGC web site, you will have to form your own opinion of our current managementplan. As I have my own private landto hunt these changes haven't effect my hunting, but think how the guy feels that has to hunt our state lands and the out of state hunter that pays five times more for a license. |
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
Here are the history of 2 ½ year old bucks harvested across the state for the past twenty five years so al can see how close that number has come to doubling since Doctor Alt first brought the topic to the forefront in 1999. Starting in 1999 we started to see some voluntary movement toward antler restrictions among the hunting fraternity so the period between 1998 and 2002 showed some improvement from the previous fifteen years. Years…………..2 ½ and older bucks harvested per square mile 83-87.………………………….0.65 88-92.………………………….0.68 93-97.………………………….0.68 98-02.………………………….1.07 03-07.………………………….1.29 As you can see the number of 2 ½ and older bucks has almost doubled as compared to the old traditional data for 2 ½ and older bucks. Now here are the facts without the spin and manipulation. The 2.5+ buck harvest more than doubled from 1996 when we harvested 24,865 2.5+ buck to 2002 when we harvested 52,602 ,2.5+ buck and that is an increase of 111%!!! The highest 2,5+ buck harvest occurred in 2004 when we harvested 62,399 which is only 16% more than in 2002 and far from doubling the number of 2.5+ buck harvested in 2002. Alt claimed that, " hunters would likely see MORE and Bigger" buck than every before. He did not say they would see more big buck. In order to have bigger buck than ever before the 2.5 + buck produced by ARs would have to be bigger than the pre-AR 2.5+ buck. |
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
I vote no on antler restrictions. I would like to ask RSB a question I notice you love to debate HR and AR on several message boards all day and night do you ever go into the field and patrol or perform any habitat work on state game lands or is your job description to patrol message boards to promote and defend the present HR/AR plan
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RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
Once again my two cents just for sh**s and giggles.If we are in fact killing twice as many 2 year old bucks now than before AR,are we not just prolonging the inevitable for 365 days ? I would rather see some facts on the harvest of mature 5 or 6 year old bucks thanquibbling about the 2 year old ones.Granted,the 2 year old ones should have bigger antlers,but unless these deer are allowed to reach a fully mature age we will never see the real benefits of letting these deer walk.Seems to me all we're doing is increasing the average antler size of harvested bucks while sacrificng the numbers of them harvested.If we're not harvesting the number of 2 year olds as Bluebird and Coalcracker show in their post,then my question to the Pgc is why not ? These 2 and 3 year old buck should have larger antlers and therefor available for the taking for the majority of hunters.From my personal experience i'm seeing a slight increase in average antler size but far fewer bucks being taken overall.
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RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
Before the restrictions my biggest buck of 18 deer was a basket rack 6 pointer. Same SGL 4C. Since, I have shot 5*7-8-9 pointers all close to or over 100 inches.
It has saved the sport for many of us in our area that want to hunt for bigger racked bucks. They just weren't there before AR. |
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
I really don't think anybody is disagreeing that the AR has produced some bigger bucks,that only common sense since especially here in 2A and 2B,it halmost has to be a basic 8 point to be legal.Many hunters ,myself included ,are questioning why the pure numbers have dropped so drastically.If 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 year old bucks given a free pass to live on,should they not then be available to harvest as 3 1/2 , 4 1/2, and 5 1/2 year old bucks ?
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RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
ORIGINAL: fellas2 I really don't think anybody is disagreeing that the AR has produced some bigger bucks,that only common sense since especially here in 2A and 2B,it halmost has to be a basic 8 point to be legal.Many hunters ,myself included ,are questioning why the pure numbers have dropped so drastically.If 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 year old bucks given a free pass to live on,should they not then be available to harvest as 3 1/2 , 4 1/2, and 5 1/2 year old bucks ? |
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
ORIGINAL: fellas2 I really don't think anybody is disagreeing that the AR has produced some bigger bucks,that only common sense since especially here in 2A and 2B,it halmost has to be a basic 8 point to be legal.Many hunters ,myself included ,are questioning why the pure numbers have dropped so drastically.If 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 year old bucks given a free pass to live on,should they not then be available to harvest as 3 1/2 , 4 1/2, and 5 1/2 year old bucks ? The pure numbers have dropped for several reasons IMHO HR, the concurrent season and and the aggressive harvest of does is part of it of course. But so is the evolution, or deterioration if you will, of habitat in some areas with 2G being the most significant example. As for the 3 1/2 and up bucks, I'm not sure there is any way to manage statewide for them with 900,000+ hunters unless we begin to limit buck tags in some way. I don't think that is a concept that will ever fly here. One thing for sure is that no buck can get to 3.5+ if it dies at 1.5. It is only reasonable, while admittedly not proven, that SOME of those bucks allowed to live through that foolish "teenage year" will gain an opportunity to learn the survival skills necessary to get to 3.5 and beyond. |
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
another thing to think about is do you hunt archery, rifle or both. I hunted rifle all my life and i never really had a deer walk so where i can count the points.
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RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
ORIGINAL: pahunter60 another thing to think about is do you hunt archery, rifle or both. I hunted rifle all my life and i never really had a deer walk so where i can count the points. |
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
couldnt it be that the buck kills are lower because of the doe killing that has happened here??? i dont see how the AR is the main problem.
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RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
i never had deer like this around before  |
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
Love them.. we need more.. Fortunately I have hunted all over the US and seen different game management programs... We have lagged... this is the first year that I have not been able to hunt our farm... I always get a deer when I want.. there have been seasons where all I did was thin the does and leave the bucks walk... Which is management... Our farm's carrying capacity is not able to handle the volume of does we now have... the antiquated thinking that we shouldn't hunt does is crazy... does eat too.. simple math is 100,000 does equal 100,000 fawns...but it is actually much higher... mature does throw an average of 2 fawns...
Whether some agree or not Gary Alt was right... no one contradicts his results on bear numbers.. he did that but bear are not the game of choice so he got the time needed to change the population and help the animal.. when he started changing the methodology for hunting to more what one sees in Texas, Ohio, Georgia, or Ill.. we hear all the moaning.. we did not allow him to finish his plan.. Farmers understand carrying capacity and so do wildlife biologists... Yes there would be peaks and valleys but allow someone to complete the plan... I hear all the crying about no deer and the recent study at Penn State really shows a problem.. deer move due to pressure and if one gets deeper than 1mile the see animals.. it is no different here in the west where I currently live... I shot a very large blacktail in a heavily hunted area where everyone said there was nothing left... Come on.. You guys re-elected John Murtha back and he called me a redneck and a racist on National TV. he's an idiot.. So we re-elect an idiot and a noted game biologist with an amazing record of accomplishments we pressure out cause he was honest.. Happy Thanksgiving.... he now he can influence all kinds of things which effect you... |
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
BTBowhunter, and several others.. I agree in theory one would think that the deer where there?? But the comment someone wrote about that they have never had the chance to count the points on a buck.. OMG...
Are you any smarter from your past experiences?? Let me answer that for you.. YES YOU ARE... so are those bucks... if they make if 2years of folks stumbling into their areas they become far more intelligent... we all do.. I have pics on my farm of deer I've never seen... but they find every nook and cranny to hide... I've had older bucks lay behind our house in this patch of scrubs we have.. I never shoot them just laugh and watch.. I could shoot them out of my window..60yds.. but they just lay there, we come and go and they never move... in the evening when I turn on the lights in the machine shed.. I see them feeding in the yard... Deer are smart... and surviving a few seasons makes them smarter... I hate watching these game shows and seeing them highlight PA as a backwards hunting mentality.. hello, they don't highlight Ill as ooops state.. I know our farm can produce huge bucks.. so do the mountains.. but we as hunters need to be better.. I ask you..do you wash your clothes, not smoke, use cover scent, not hunt certain stands if the wind is wrong, use a scentlock.. get dressed in the field, don't over hunt the stand, and take a doe with every buck annually?? if you do great, you are like many of us.. and I kill a lot of critters annually.... I use this same system out west while I am out here and I hunt Blacktails and Mulies like Whitetails.. I always find the bigger bucks out here now in the thickets.. but western hunters hate to sit.. Food for thought... but read game management in GA or TX or ILL.. the only difference it we have the genetics in our deer in PA to grow monsters they had to work on it by importing our deer to many of those other states.. |
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