RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

I say it's good...it controls the deer population and give me deer for us young hunters...

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

That is not one of the reasons buck harvests have dropped. The deer in 2G and across the state were healthy before ARs and HR and due to the effects of HR there is a lot more food/deer than there was 10 years ago.

ARs contributed to the drop in buck harvests because more buck are lost to non-hunting mortality which may be as high as 18%. Also ,at least 20% of the 1.5 buck aren't AR legal as 2.5 buck ,which further reduces the harvest. Furthermore, ARs reduce the percentage and number of does in the OW herd so there are fewer doe producing fawns which results in lower buck and doe harvests.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

Remember that ARs shift a lot of the hunting pressure to the 2.5+ buck and as a result ,according to the PGC only 20% of our 2.5+ buck survive hunting season. Also ,a significant percentage of the 2.5+ buck that survive are inferior buck that weren't AR legal and may be harvested as scrub racked 3.5 buck and the hunter never realizes he shot a 3.5 buck.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

Now that is about as silly as you've ever gotten. Do you expect ANYONE to beleive in a state where we were killing 80% of our 1.5 buck that the 2.5 year old bucks got less pressure or were were less likely to die before AR?

You actually pointed out your own contradiction when you admitted that we now harvest 80% of our 2.5 buck. The very same percentage of 1.5 buck we used to kill.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

And herein above lies the folly of your thought processes. To deny that whitetail magement takes place in an ever changing habitat it to expose the fact that you simply cant accept any science that doesnt fit neatly into your self created formulas. Denying that variables besides the doe harvest have an effect just shows your lack of understanding. BTW, it's why no game agency is ever likely to listen to the likes of you.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

What I said was that the quality of the habitat and the amount of available food/deer were improving when ARs were implemented ,while you claimed it was deteriorating.

I didn't deny there were other variables besides the doe harvests and in fact I pointed out the effects ARs have on reducing the buck harvest.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

nothing else to say, you hit it on head.;)

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

We have fewer quality buck than we did in 2002 ,so i have no idea what you two are talking about.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

Come on now you can’t be that dense or is that just you spinning things to convince the people that aren’t smart enough to connect all the dots?

When we implemented antler restrictions in 2002 it was fully intended to reduce the buck harvest. That was the total reason for implementing antler restrictions that protected about 50% of the 1 ½ year old bucks.
Even the Village Idiot should be able to figure out that when you make half of the 1 ½ year old bucks off limits your buck harvest is going to decline.
But, carrying those extra bucks over into the next fall was necessary in order to improve the adult buck/doe ratio and improve the breeding rates and times. It is working as planned too.

The only problem was that we had carried too many deer for too long and start the herd reduction in time to prevent a deer herd crash following the back to back hard winters we had. The years following those harsh winters we had very few surviving fawns. Half of those fawns that didn’t survive more then a few days after birth would have been the bucks that should have been available to hunters the past couple of years. But, hunters will not be able to harvest adult bucks that died as fawns.

R.S. Bodenhorn

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

I`ll start with your highlighted quote above............Are you on crack?

Next I will ask another question......why are you still permitted on this forum?

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

You don’t see any posts made by me during any of my work hours, which means my posts are on my own time.

I also work about 50 - 70 hours per week, depending on the time of year, even though I don’t get paid for more then 40-45 hours per week, depending on the time of the year.

I spend my free time on the message boards trying to educate people about a number of law enforcement and wildlife management concerns, with an emphasis on deer management because that is the least understood topic of hunters yet undoubtedly the most critical to the future.

Educating people is a hobby for me. While some people like to sit and watch TV, sit in the bars or what ever else they do, I simply don’t drink and find TV both boring and disgusting so I study, reports and data then try to explain it so that the hunters can understand it.

I believe a pretty high number of the more logical and intelligent hunters do learn from it. But, all I can do is present the data I can’t make people intelligent enough to understand it. I can’t make people accept things they are too not willing to look at objectively either. But, I will help people see the other side of the story so that those that have enough intelligence can think it through to a logical conclusion.

By the way how is my personal time any of your business? I’ll bet you are even one of those that fights against the license increase that would enable WCOs to spend more time in the field protecting the resources, aren’t you?

R.S. Bodenhorn

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

RSB..keep posting... you are correct.. and I bet you didn't vote for Murtha... also, if he feels like debating this stuff online so be it.. at least he isn't like the lady in Ohio who investigated Joe the plumber on office time... we are talking about deer hunting.. and conservation...

RSB Ihave been lucky enough to have left PA and hunted all over.. I have learned a lot... I also grew up farming and understand carrying capcity as well.. I posted something on your other topic.. keep it up..

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

I have some data on the percentage of bucks of various ages being taken to this area’s largest Taxidermist the past couple of years that I can share with you. This is from a sample of over 400 bucks.

Age…………2006.…………….2007
1.5.………….5.4 %…………….0.7 %
2.5.…………38.8 %…………..44.6 %
3.5.…………34.2 %…………..37.2 %
4.5.…………14.6 %…………..12.2 %
5.5.………….4 6 %……………2.7 %
6.5.………….2.3 %……………2.0 %
7.5.………….0.0 %……………0.7 %

R.S. Bodenhorn

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

man, do you guys really care that much about rack size? i really could careless. i really miss how it used to be...a buck is a bucka big 10 or a spike i'd be happy with either maybe you guys watch too much of those hunting shows ha

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

Killing spikes and yearlings are easy.. go to the range... does are just as sporting... Killing big bucks ain't easy consistently... When I left Pa and went to Georgia to hunt they laughed at me and how little I knew.. when I left I was able to consistently find big bucks.. not always kill them ... that is half the problem here.. brown and down mentality... it has to change.. Hunting ain't killin... Dad taught me that...

Uncle Sam taught me this...for those of us who have had to serve in bad places you understand that quickly.. killing is bad...

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

Thank you, Sir!

I could tell from the first of your posts, I encountered, that you have a pretty good understanding of wildlife management. Thanks for your posts, welcome aboard and keep up the posting.

We need more people with common sense and good judgment on the message boards.

R.S. Bodenhorn

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

Uncle Sam taught me this...for those of us who have had to serve in bad places you understand that quickly.. killing is bad... then why do you hunt?

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

im just sick of talking about this....all people care about now is big bucks and not the thrill of the hunt, but whatever everybody from pa..good luck monday

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

If you have to ask that question then it is probably too far beyond you to understand the answer too.

You were never in a combat zone where you had to kill were you?

There really is a difference between killing and hunting. Though hunting involves killing it is not a joyous thing when we make the kill. Even though I love to hunt and have no reservations about making a harvest I always feel remorse for having taken the life of my harvest. Killing for the good of your country and mankind is a totally different function and not one that can be equated or compared with hunting.

R.S. Bodenhorn

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

Pahunter60.. first of all.. I spent my life serving the US as a Green Beret.. I have a plate in my hips and two pins that hold me together.. if I want to hunt I hunt. I earned the right to do whatever I want.. If I just want to moan about something I can cause I EARNED IT...I get my check from Uncle Sam every month for injuries earned in the line of duty..

Second, many times I don't kill anything.. but spending that time in the woods relaxes me and takes away a few demons which some of us may carry... Your nice to have thing called hunting was earned by guys like me.. Hunting, guns and such are something we all should cherish and we damn sure better think about HARD...

I have taken the time to learn about game management and read voraciously (a lot ) about deer managerment.. If we all could work together on this topic in PA we could all shoot big bucks because they would be common place..

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

sorry cuernos1, thank you for all youve done, but you dont have to act like i knew all that stuff

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

Ummmm....you started this thread. What did you actually expect? This has been re-hashed many times on hunting boards and no one ever budges.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

Apparently you and Alt are the primary contenders for that title since both you and Alt claimed the buck harvest would return to normal after the first year of ARs. Even when the buck harvest dropped anther 23K in 2003 you still insisted the buck harvest would return to normal because of increased breeding rates and recruitment. now ,after breeding rates and recruitment have decreased instead of increasing and the buck harvest is down by 46% you are still claiming ARs are working as planned. Therefore, I think it obvious that you are the winner ,since Alt was at least smart enough to leave town and shut up.
That is just pure nonsense. Recruitment dropped significantly because there were 35-40% fewer adult doe available to produce fawns. Breeding rates decreased because the average age of the doe was lower due to HR and the effects of predation were more noticeable since there were so few doe producing fawns.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

How many days do you hunt in a season?

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

Kudosto RSB for the post on page 6.It only re-enforces my claim about the AR.Looking at his data,letting 1 1/2 year old small racked bucks walk only serves to prolong the inevitable for another year,two at most. The 1 1/2 year olds walk only to be killed the following year or at best their third year.Far fewer make it past their third year and almost none make it to mature age of 5 1/2 - 7 1/2.So basically all the AR does is raise the average rack size of bucks taken and nothing else.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

So, if we were to boil this down, there are less deer in PA... GOOD.. the ave age of a buck is 2.5yrs .. Better.... There are less does.... Better.... The changes that I am reading tend to revolve around the following:

With less deer and older bucks we see an increase in the smarts area of the bucks... so, they become more nocturnal, and elusive...Their training camp is one of the heaviest hunted states in the Nation... so daily they encounter people.. so they are wiser... BETTER.. it isn't as easy to shoot something as it once was... Better

Bucks will die.. most will make a fatal error and catch a round... or car hood... but those biggins will slink around hiding in the weeds behind my garage until the pressure goes down... in the mountain areas one has to do deeper and farther... that is good.. enjoy the outdoors.. even with the plate in my hips and issues... I hike in deep every year and usually kill a nice deer...

so as to the final outcome in this debate, less deer bigger bucks, more skill needed to down them... before you launch into some sort of tirade, read some of the info regarding {carrying capacity Colorado has some good stuff on their website, Ill has some regarding their management program,too..then go to the QDMA quality deer management association site.. > good info...

Too many of us take for granted our freedoms here and the idea of going back in time to a slaughter is out.. the anti's will use hunting away.. deer management is the future... It does a few things which we have not discussed.. 1.Property price goes up along withthe hunting quality.. look at land prices in Ill, Iowa, KY..those are not places businesses are moving they are hunting hotspots.. 2.They gain attention and increase revenues for thestate and local businesses..

Our thinking needs to be long term.. worrying about killing all the deer come on.. we shot all the damn deer in the state during the commercial years and in less than 30 yrs were harvesting 80k plus... from 1950 to 80 what an increase.. so forget that line of thought...

The comments referencing Alt's statements, he never had an opportunity to accomplish his goal.. His bear program is great.. when you can harvest 2000 bears annually that is an accomplishment especially in such a populated state....



Here are a few things we need to manage game but many are afraid to ask for.. More ability to stop trespassing.. my farm gets more idiots who say they didn't know after crawling over my fence and passing my signs. there is nothing I as a landowner can do.. Police have to have an illegal act and game guys need a dead deer. it is BS... if you are on my place without my permission you should get fined large.. period. I pay the taxes not the trespasser or make them pay my taxes for that year as a fine.. I put in food plots have feeders up in the worst months... I rotate my food plots.. but that is for me.. not everyone else...

More doe tags for those landowners who want them.... on my food plots some mornings I will have 50plus does on them and only small bucks 2 or 3.. not good odds.. camera shots give me no better averages... I need about 30 does shot off... and the way they do it here is so antiquated...looks like a craigslist doe hunt next year.. brown and down season.. but that is not management.. I would selectively harvest the does if I could.. but I do not have the tools...

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

You could actually harvest all the does you need to by opening your property up to selective public hunting instead of posting it and keeping all hunters off.Why should the PGC give you special treatment by issuing extra doe tags when they have nothing to benefit from it.If there's on thing that sticks in my craw it landowners who think the wildlife that reside on their property think they own that wildlife and should be able to do with it what they please.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

You may be right. Time will tell, but I think most of us are OK with the average rack size getting better.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

Cuernos1

Thank you for your service! Without guys like you none of us would be able to sit here and voice our opinions on much of anything.

Thank you for keeping America the land of the free because of the brave!!!!

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

I have no problem with an increase in average rack size either,but at what price ?

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

My point is please don't tell me that the only reason the PCG implemented the AR is so hunters can now brag about shooting a 6 or 8 point instead of the smaller racks they used to.It seems that so far that is the only positive result and that sure shouldn't be the primary focus with the deer herd now.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

Selective doesn't work..cause you don't have to deal with liability issues.. I am selective as to what I do.. I can have you over some time to look at the bullet holes in our garage and our barn.. you do have liability issues with regards to someone getting hurt and it falls towards your homeowners clause..

As for the game is mine comment.. here is my point.. if I spend a little of my $$$ improving my place and I look at your sh%$ hole across the fence then on opening day all of your family is leaning over my fence and trespassing on my back pasture.. I have a problem... you may not, cause those deer do belong to everyone, but when I don't shoot anything without 8pts or better and you shoot brown animals there is another problem... So I don't vote for the past with the Murtha types.. I am a spread the wealth type. I earned I can play with it.. when my place is only 70 acres and the rest are 300 or more and you are hovering my fence line.. maybe I got it and you don't... I do have the biggest bucks on my place.. and they stay there.. but it is because I take the time to make it better.. so back to my comment on trespassing, I want more ability for the police and game officials.. so I can bust up the drivers who come on without a gun and push my place towards your family....

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

The big price is less deer overall. My jury is still out in regard to some of this. We needed it badly in some areas. Not so much in others.

I am looking forward to the results of the pilot change in 2D 2G etc next week.You will recall that the PGC staff was adamantlyopposed to this change to the 5 day buck only rule and said it was too soon.The one thing Gary Alt seemed able to do within the PGc was to be adaptable and decisive when making changes. The thing that worries me most now that he's gone is that the PGC seems to have returned to theirtraditional habits of sometimes being a bit slow to change their course. That could translate to being slow to correct mistakes as we move forward. I understand that they can't knee jerk every decision but the PGC's past history has been one of resisting change for far too long. Right or wrong, they seem disproportionately resistant to change course compared to other states agencies even when results from other states clearly indicate that change could be good.

Some examples:

Pa was one of the very last to lengthen hunting hours to a half hour after sunset even after nationwide stats told us it was perfectly safe to do so.

Our original muzzleloader season started as only three days on select game lands and had to be worked up to a more conventional length and we stillstand virtually alone with the flintlock only thing.

We might just finally get a computerized licensing system next year. (not holding my breath) while other states managed to implement similar systems years ago. We've heard all the excuses but Illinois for example, has just as many varied tags and stamps as we doand they manged to get the job done several years ago. And their budget problems are far bigger than the PGC's


My posting in the past tells all that I'm generally supportive of the PGC
but that doesn't mean they couldn't do better.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

No, the average buck is still a 1.5 buck. In 2006 and 2007 only 44% of the buck harvested were 2.5+ buck, Furthermore, the average buck harvested still only have 7 points and Alt claimed ARs would double the number of 8 pt. buck. Alt was a great salesman but he knew very little about deer management or the history of deer management in PA..

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

Oh, so you figure there were more older bucks in the population when we harvested 80% of more of the 1 ½ year old bucks each year? That’s interesting, but it only makes about as much sense as a pig with wings.

It appears that you too are suffering from the inability to understand data or to comprehend written text as a few of the others posting here have already proven of themselves. Or have you just been learning to bluebird’s lead be simply posting a spin to what others have posted when their post proves you are wrong?

The fact is we have more older and mature bucks in the Pennsylvania deer population then ever occurred in any of our lives. And, it is probably going to get even better in the future provided the professionals can stick with scientific deer management instead of being forced back to that stupid system of management by public and political demand that has gone so far toward ruining the deer populations throughout the past.

Some people now just spend their time trying to drag management back to the dark ages of before antler restrictions because they presently can’t kill the first little buck they see the first morning and get back home, the bar or where ever they really would prefer being instead of hunting, like they had grown accustomed. Still others demand a return to the years of serious mismanagement of the deer herd when we over protected them almost out of existence in some areas of the state because they simply have no understanding of how nature really works in regards to a deer/habitat relationship.

Thankfully we presently have a Board of Commissioners with the guts and brain capacity to do the right thing for the resources, based on the guidance of the Professionals, instead of caving in to the people that have no idea what they are talking about.

R.S. Bodenhorn

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

The age of the bucks being harvesteddoesn’t necessarily reflect the ages of the bucks in the population. During some years hunters harvest more and a higher percentage of the 1 ½ year old bucks simply because a higher percentage of the 1 1/2 year old bucks were antler legal as a result of earlier fawns the year before or having a mild winter that allowed the button bucks to gain weight through the winter and then put more into antler development in the spring.

Here is the actual bucks harvest history that compares the average ages of the bucks harvested for the past twenty-five years. This includes both the average number and the percentage.

Years…………………1.5 years old……………………….2.5 and older
83-87.…………………110,804 (79.2%)………………….29,137 (20.8%)
88-92.…………………132,870 (81.4%)………………….30,300 (18.6%)
93-97.…………………136,654 (81.9%)………………….30,270 (18.1%)
98-02.…………………148,058 (78.1%)………………….41,483 (21.9%)
03-07.………………….68,348 (54.1%)…………………..57,986 (45.9%)

R.S. Bodenhorn

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

We had more older buck in 2003 and 2004 than we have now and there is no data that shows we have more mature buck than we did in the past ,since so few buck make it to maturity because of the increased hunting pressure on older buck. Furthermore the data you posted proves that the majority of bucks harvested are 1.5 buck.Thanks.

There is no data that shows ARs have benefited the herd in any way and ARS are not recommended as a long term method for increasing the age structure of the buck herd.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

Never said there were more older bucks back 2003-2004,but as your own posting on page 6 shows pretty much shows all the AR did was increase the average age of the deer we harvested by 1-2 years at most .Once they got past that stage the numbers basically declined.
Cuernoes1 , I agree that punishment should be harsher for tresspassers,and maybe some of the PGC officers that ride around all day during the season pulling in front of moving vehicles and jumping out running up to them trying to catch guys with their guns loaded might be better off spent arresting and prosecuting these tresspassers.But to expect ant organization to give a landowner who posts his property extra doe tags for his own management practices is absoulutely absurd.It would be like kids the key to the candy store.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

"The fact is we have more older and mature bucks in the Pennsylvania deer population then ever occurred in any of our lives."

Hardly. Very debatable and I disagree strongly. Percentagewise, of course. Numberswise the extreme reduction will not allow it.

"And, it is probably going to get even better in the future"

Impossible. If the doe tags are not cut to at least reasonable levels andsome herd growth permitted, nothing will change. Nothing will improve. In fact, many areas are still spiraling downward.

"provided the professionals can stick with scientific deer management "

When do they intend to start and what is it to be based on? Most agree the reproductive angle was a bust. Now what? Continue measuring the abundance of trillium?[:'(]

"Thankfully we presently have a Board of Commissioners with the guts and brain capacity to do the right thing for the resources, based on the guidance of the Professionals, instead of caving in to the people that have no idea what they are talking about. "

Yes. Great board. Famous for their ecoextreme views and hosing the hunters of Pa. Seems to be another post with a link that pretty much sums those folks up to a "T". Worst group in our history, and definately no friends of the hunter.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

I really like AR, but I don't like how the pop has been slaughtered off. In 4c the amish guys come with their 25 hunters(wives and children with tags) and shoot everything they see. Now we have very few deer.

On the other hand, I consider myself a good hunter and can find bucks, and I now see much much bigger deer than I ever did before AR. I do go afield and not see deer a lot, but when I put it together I kill much bigger deer than before AR.

I think we need AR and a license for Does that does not include SGL's. Obviously we need to kill Does on SGL but we need a few deer running around. I am sure they could allocate licenses the SGL and private land without too much trouble. I will voluntter to take on the project.