RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

Thanks for posting your opinion based on EXPERIENCE over the years. If only those who are whining about AR would spend more time in the woods off-season and during and having had seen the changes taking place the good and the bad then they could also speak from experience instead of reciting PAGC "stats and reports". It gets me... some have no faith in AR yet they have faith in the PAGC to give verbatim dictation from their reports.In my life I have spent many more days in the woods than not in the woods and I see the herd decrease and I also see a higher percentage of larger buck now than before AR. I also work in a Taxidermy shop part time and have contact with more deer after harvestthan most who work for the Game Commission. I don't need a report to tell me what to think, I see the benefit of AR here as well as the other states I hunt. I agree with Sproul and whoever mentioned limiting jr. hunters to only2 non AR buck. Once those 2 bucks are shot than it's time to up the standard for youth. I take my fiance's boy out and he is not allowed to shoot anything under a 4pt for his first buck, the reason is... that what I shot for my first deer and i can't tell him to do what I didn't do myself.And the truth is he doesn't want to shoot spike bucks or even a 4 pt for that matter, he wants a 6 or better. Amazing to see a 12 year old have higher standards for himself when he has never shot a deer than older men who have killed numerous deer and still want to shoot whatever they see. I'm proud of him and I know he will kill nicer buck in his first few years than almost all of those who cry about having tohold out for an adult or larger racked deer.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

I have no burning desire to harvest a mature buck so why would I even consider passing on a legal buck?
You can do whatever you want and you could do it before ARS. But, I can't do what I want because of ARS and hunters like you who prefer to hunt for racks instead of just bucks.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

Spending more time in the woods during the off season won't change the fact that we harvested fewer 2.5+ buck in 2007 than in 2002. It won't change the fact that breeding rates and productivity decreased instead of increasing. it won't change the fact that we are high grading our buck and that there is no evidence that ARs have increased the rack size of the average 2.5+ buck.
Nice cheap shot sport. Just wait until you have 5 years left to hunt and see how much big racks mean to you then. When you are 70's will you have a buck mounted so they can bury it with you? Or will you have it placed in a glass case above your grave instead of a tombstone?
Would you care to tell us about the benefits of ARs in Miss. where rack sizes decreased across the state or would you prefer ARK. where 2 out of 3 regions voted to repeal ARs? Maybe you want to tell us about ARs in WMU 118 in Mich. where ARs were repealed after 5 years. Or would you prefer the 6 western states where ARs were tried and repealed? Then there is NY where ARs failed too increase the number of 2.5+ harvested and support for ARs is decreasing.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

I think that there should be restrictions on the antlers. I would rather shoot a big buck than a small buck. Any Day!!!!!!

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

No one is forcing you to shoot a small buck. Prior to ARs hunters could choose to harvest any legal antlered buck that met their standards. Now hunters are forced to harvest buck based on the standards of those that value rack size above everything else including herd health. There is no biological or scientific justification for ARs.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

I just finished reading an article in the July 2002 Game News written by PGC BiologistBrett Walligford. He states in the article that "we expect by 2003 hunters will see MORE and LARGER bucks than ever before".

I'm still waiting.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

Here is what Alt told C. Alsheimer,

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

No, I didn't have a sure-kill shot on the 10 pointer. A lot of hunters probably would have pulled the trigger. And that doesn't mean I would take the first legal buck that would come along. ButI want that to be my choice.

Like I said, there were large bucks before the AR's. I went through a Game Commission road block in 1990, and the 10 pointer that I shot thatyear was aged at 3 1/2 years.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

with ar i see bigger buck i didnt like them at first but now it doesnt bother me either way

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

I will work as hard as I can to preserve AR. No question of the benefit in my area.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

My group of hunters is definitely seeing more and bigger bucks.........less does obviously but better bucks? Yep.
We have a camp in 2G, the "Dead Zone" if you ask most guys who don't get 100 yds off the road.
Our group has taken several really nice 8's and 10's in the last few seasons in rifle season in areas where you were typically lucky to see a little busted up 5 or 6pt.

Spotting the same area this past summer in 1hrs time a buddy and I counted 8-10 legal bucks with several of them exceeding 125".........one was a gorgeous 140+" 10pt. Tall and heavy and completely out of place for what we've experienced over the last 20 years until a couple seasons into AR. Now it's commonplace to see P&Y bucks every year in this area. If you know where to look.

The same holds true for the S.Central portion of the state, the deer numbers are WAY down as evidenced by sightings and the way the woodlots I hunt have become grown in with brush that isn't being browsed but I'm seeing consistently nicer bucks each season even though I typically only bowhunt here in the early season.

The velvet bucks I see each summer back it up as well. 3 bucks on a small 110acre farm tanding in a bean field with the smallest going maybe 130" and the largest pushing 160" doesn't lie.
Were SOME of this caliber of buck around prior to AR's.......sure here and there in the real "honey hole" private farms but across the board quality is way up and getting better.
I have a couple friends who are taxidermists. go talk to them.
2.5yr old 7's and 8's they were mounting have suddenly become 3 and 4 yr old 10's and 12's.

Here are 2 examples of bucks taken here in PA I will at least partly contribute to AR's.

My 2007State Gamelandsarchery kill


My best friend's 2007 State Forest archery kill


I guess I just don't see what satisfaction someone gets out of shooting the dumbest deer in the woods..........a 1.5yr old buck even if it meets the legal qualifications. To say they got "Their" buck? IS there ANYONE out there that can honestly tell me they are just as happy shooting a 1.5yr old 4pt as they are a 2.5yr old 14" wide 8pt? or better yet a heavy 18" wide 10pt?
At some point the average hunter should expect a little more of himself and the experience.

It's the "Stocked Trout" mentality or the 'Stocked Pheasant" mentality. I pay my money ,I want to kill what I want to kill, and I'm going to kill and keep anything I want and can because nobody is gonna tell me what I can and can't do.
It's a sad mentality and it amazes me that people can't see that........and rather than argue the point I just feel sorry for the person who hasn't been able to experience anything beyond that or elevate their mental approach beyond ME ME ME.:eek:

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

We set a record for the number of 2.5+ buck harvested in 1999 and broke that record in 2001. The we broke that record in 2002 before any bucks were saved by ARs. But the funny thing is , no one was bragging about all the big bucks , they were complaining about all the spikes and y's. Now we are harvesting fewer 2.5+ buck than in 2002nd only 4,000 more than in 2001 and guys like you are telling us how ARs produced all these big buck.
IMHO those comments are the height of arrogance and a huge insult to the vast majority of your fellow hunters. Based on that no one should derive any satisfaction from harvesting a doe because they don't have a big rack. The average rack hunter harvests the cream of the crop of the buck population and then turns around and insults and denigrates his fellow hunters who do the work of controlling the herd. It doesn't get much lower than that.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

Nice deer Matt/PA. Big bucks have meattoo!!

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

You're a piece of work.......show me where I even mentioned doe hunting? I shoot does. It's part of good game management.
You want to shoot your baby bucks that's where we part ways. Spin spin spin any comment or experience to makeit fit whatever personal agenda/viewsyou have.

If I had my way people would be forced to use their buck tags on button bucks.

At some point people have to look beyond this feeling of entitlement to a deer behind every tree even if that's not the best thing for the land and hunters that will follow us when we die. Like I said it's a stocked trout mentality in this state. Dump as many artificially created opportunities as we can into the water and snatch them up as fast as we can regardless of size or sport simply to call them yours and define your season as a success.

Guys like you need to look beyond your agenda driven drivel and see the big picture......

I was a Fly fishing guide for years and there is a natural progression of experience a typical fisherman goes through in their life (maybe you've heard this before)
There are pretty defined stages:
1. Catch a fish....any fish.
2. Catch as many fish as possible. Now we're hooked, and the body count begins. numbers, competition year to year comparisons, "How many did you catch?......Huh well I got my limit 3 days in a row" We define success by having to catch something every time out, we're disspaointed and upset when we don't and the thrill of catching a single fish goes away.
3. Catch a BIG fish. At some point something changes and little fish start to become less of a challenge, there has to be something more?
4. Catch LOTS of big fish! Just as before you caught your first now you want to catch a bunch.....but the challenge is greater and the experience and skills increase to accomplish this new goal.
5. Catch theUNCATCHABLE fish. You've done it and see it all, caught fish after fish and big ones.......again there has to be something more? So now you want to catch that one fish that you may have previously thought impossible........the fish of a lifetime, a different species? Our heart and minds shift to new and exciting experiences.
6. Reflection. This is a point where the process and HOW we go about fishing is more important than catching anything, we've refined our techniques and honed our skills to the point where we have nothing to prove to ourselves or anyone else. This is a time of passing what we know on to others, a time of simple relaxed enjoyment. Time to look around and catching a fish is no longer important.

Why do I illustrate this?..........Because far too many hunters (and fishermen)in this state are permanently stuck on stage #2 because nobody ever explained to them that there is a different way. In this world of "Gotta have mine" they simple gotta get theirs no matter what. Stealing deer from a kid, casting their lines across an older gentleman on a narrow stream.

I truly feel sorry for the person who is permanently stuck in the mindset that the quality of experience is defined by any animal hanging from the garage rafter by it's neck, that poor soul who is stuck at stage #2.

Expect more from yourselves and you fellow hunters. There's a reason why so many PA hunters visit other states in deer season, there's a reason why we're the laughing stock of the deer hunting country..........it's because of outdated shortsighted mindsets by the majority that are defined by a single word:
ME.
:eek:

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

That statement proves you know absolutely nothing about managing a deer herd. If hunters had to use their buck tag on a BB, the vast majority of hunters would not shoot fawns or small doe which means the PGC would never achieve their antlerless harvest objectives.

[quote]Why do I illustrate this?..........Because far too many hunters (and fishermen) in this state are permanently stuck on stage #2 because nobody ever explained to them that there is a different way. In this world of "Gotta have mine" they simple gotta get theirs no matter what. Stealing deer from a kid, casting their lines across an older gentleman on a narrow stream.

I truly feel sorry for the person who is permanently stuck in the mindset that the quality of experience is defined by any animal hanging from the garage rafter by it's neck, that poor soul who is stuck at stage #2/quote]

I feel sorry for the fools that think the size of the buck they harvest is an indication of their manhood. Those are the guys that define the quality of their experience by the animal hanging from the garage rafter. The average hunter prizes and respects any deer harvested ,while rack hunters look down on those that are happy with a spike or a Y.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

This shows YOUR distrust inthe majority of huntersand is the highestinsult tothem because you're flat out saying thatthey lack the ability totell the difference between a button buck and even a yearling doe or even the discipline to take the time to try. Our management goals wouldn't work because our hunters are too stupid or lazy to make it work.
They need to be able to shoot first and check what it is after it's dead.
You said that not me.

See how easy it is to spin anything to make it fit your agenda?

The reason the average hunter prizes a spike or a Y is because they don't expect enough from themselves , the next guy down the ridge, or the state.

If I took 600,000 rifle hunters and polled them with this question:
"You have 3 deer standing broadside at 50 yards.......a spike, a forkhorn,and a 150" 4yr old 10pt, which one will you shoot?"

How many of those 600,000 will NOT shoot the big 10pt? WHY?
Because deep down every hunter, even the guy who shoots a spike every year til' he dieswants that big buck.
He wants his cake of shooting a buck every year regardless of size but someday he'd love to put one on the wall too.

Expect more of yourself and the guy down the ridge.......until the mentality changes beyond "I'm happy withmylittle 5ptbecause if I don't shoot it the neighbor will" this state will always bethe laughing stock of deer management.

You're flat out dillusional if you don't think the majority of the hunters in PA have that exact phrase run through their minds the second a small but legal buck enters their sights. To shoot something just because it's legal andconvince yourself that you're "Thrilled" with it when in reality you felt like you HAD TO shoot it is a sad state of affairs.

I have to have that full stringer........day after day. Trout after trout.
You guys enjoy Stage #2. I'm off to a different place.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

But only a fool would argue that BB harvests were a problem while at the same time arguing that despite record BB harvests we are harvesting record numbers of 2.5+ buck.
You ,just like so many rack hunters are simply on an ego trip. You don't give a rip about herd health or the future of deer hunting as long as it is easier to harvest a big rack buck. You ignore the effects of high grading, you ignore the decreased breeding rates and productivity,you ignore the effects of declining number of hunters and you deny reality in your selfish desire to kill bigger buck.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

I'm on an ego trip and selfish because I choose to expect more of myself and choose to do something that is harder than what the majority of the hunters by your definition care to? LOL

So answer the question Bluebird, which one are you going to shoot?
The 1yr old spike (if legal), the 1yr old forkhorn, or the big fat 4yr old 10pt?

The one that offers the best shot angle? LOL :D
Please...we're ALL rack hunters at heart, we all wish our state was Iowa or Kansas or Illinois with regards to buck numbers and quality but we play the hand we feel we're dealt. We don't expect better from the state and those around us so we continue to strain our eyeballs for that 1" brow tine to make that 4pt legal to pull the trigger......and why?
Because of dinosaur management mentality and continuing inability to wantto make things differentor better, because the guy in the orange jacket over the hill is going to kill it anyway.
We want to keep on keepin' on with what we think has been working for the last 2 generations which is mismanaged nonsense. Keep holdin on to those days of 40 antlerless deer in a herd trying to put spikes on one to be able to pull the trigger and claim "Your buck".

Keep filling that stringer with mindless clipped fin 10" stocked trout, like I said I've moved on.
Bring back the Old days.........shooting all day long and a spike in every pickup bed.:eek:

Expect more of yourselves people, the state can do better, you can do better.
If you think I'm on an ego trip and I'm alone in liking big bucks and the idea of a more realistic deer herd?..... then pass that 10pt up the next time you see it and shoot the little 5pt standing next to it just to prove your point thata buck is a buck.

Ego trip....hahahah because my idea of a quality experience doesn't involve killing the first legal thing that skips by my stand to claim my prize and bethe hero who shot "His buck" 25 years in a row.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

I not sure yet on it; however, I would like to see the buck,and doe changed back to a three day doe season. I have never seen so few deer in the last three years. My thought on the deer season is on the first day and the two Sat, you can kill a buck or doe. But the rest of the two weeks you are only permited to take a buck. Also I am getting to a point that you should only kill one deer in the season a buck or doe. I would like to start seeing deer again. Or it might be time to look at other states to hunt, since PA has really messed up the deer herd.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

The answer is obvious and I am surprised you would ask such a ridiculous question. I would shoot the first legal buck of that group that appeared in my x -hairs.

[quoteWe want to keep on keepin' on with what we think has been working for the last 2 generations which is mismanaged nonsense. Keep holdin on to those days of 40 antlerless deer in a herd trying to put spikes on one to be able to pull the trigger and claim "Your buck"][/quote]

Your level of ignorance is truly astounding. The B/D ratio in the 80's was 1:2. We never had a herd with 40 antlerless deer with no legal bucks. If you are half as smart as you think you are, explain how a herd with no bucks bred those 40 antlerless deer and produced the following years harvest.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

I've hunted for 54 years now, if I waited for that 10 pointer, I'd still be waiting for my first shot at a buck.

Offer a kid a dime, penny and a nickle, I'm sure the kid wouldn't take the dime but one of the bigger ones. Bigger sounds like child mentality.

I realy get a kick out of these guys that are always passing on multiple bucks each day, ever notice they never tell you where they are hunting? At times I wonder if it's a secret SGL with a wire fence around it.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

I'm merely reciting the lamenting I hear from the "Old Timers"in the state who constantly whine about no deer in the big woods.........I've heard that exact statement over and over.
HERDS of deer, 20, 30 and 40 in a group.
That's what they want and that's what they miss.
I'm not making it up just repeating what I am told the "good ol' days" were like.

That's not what I asked and you know it..........you turn around and all 3 are standing there. You get to PICK one.
Which one do you pick Mr. first legal buck?

You half ass game biologists with your spreadsheets of bogus numbers that you twist to reflect whatever you want crack me up.......deep down you are all hypocrits. Condemn the guy who wants a better quality of buck but deep in the heart they want that 10pt too.

If you say you wouldn't shoot the 10pt yourself you are truly a bigger phony than you sound like day in and day out on here.

So which one is it? They're all standing there, ducks in a row. You get to choose.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

And that's exactly my point. That is the mentality that has been so engrained into our hunting culture here. If EVERYBODY thinks that way then everybody shoots what they feel will be the best the state has to offer.........and that's dictated by a fear of the next guy killing it anyway. So if it's legal it dies.
This is the best I'm gonna do, this is the best the woods have to offer so it's MINE.

Can you honestly say to yourself I wouldn't care to see a really good mature buck now and then? Only one way to do that and that's not blast the first 5pt that walks by, and the guy over the hill has to feel the same way, and the guy on the next ridge and so on and so on.

Have any of you guys who think you know what a real deer herd looks like and what good deer hunting really is ever hunted in the midwest? Have you ever seen deer truly being deer? Grunting, chasing does, 2yr old bucks running around like rats to aleviate the pressure of feeling the NEED to kill one? Enough big mature deer to really make you feel like you have an honest shot at one?
I hunt PUBLIC land every year in Illinois. PUBLIC land and it is better than any private land I've ever hunted in PA.

It's that way for one reason.....the generations of hunters before me who screwed it all up and continue to do so with their warped ideas of what a natural deer herd should look like and their idea that a buck is a buck.

If you have never seen a 10pt mature deer in 54 years of hunting does a light bulb not go on in your head that something is wrong with the state of the deer herd and the managemnt practices over that stretch of time in this state?
God forbid we try something different beyondwanting does running everywhere and a spike hanging by it's neck in the garage.

I have hunted other states like Illinois and Nebraska and it's an eye opener as to just how different the mindset is in this state.

Funny thing is that it's generally the older "wiser" crowd who under the new plan that I consistently hear complain about no deer, wasting their time, and wanting to shoot whatever buck they want. Why? That's the misguided tradition passed down to them by THEIR fathers. It's what they know, what they grew up with , what they feel comfortable with and because they saw lots of deer they assume that was the best the state could give them.

I realize it's a tough state to manage with the number of hunters we have and until that pressure of feeling like we NEED to kill the first legal buck because of that orange army surrounding us advancing the health and quality of the deer herd will be a tough row to hoe if not just because of the vocal minority who want it the "old way".

And while you're at it since I know nothing and your obviously such an expert in the field why don't you tell us all exactly WHo you are and what your qualifications are with all your charts and numbers?
What gives you the right and ability to tell me I know nothing when I'm basing my views on experience over 25 years of hunting here?
How about your game management resume?
Is it better than mine? YOu have a degree in biology?

Until you quit the anonymous pot shots and same ol same ol crap I got news for you, your words don't carry any more weight than a 12yr old kid on here who says "I like big bucks, I like AR's"
You're just an anonymous blowhard who wants everything his way because it's best........WHY? because you say it is.;)

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

Matt/PA for get making any headway.... You are talking to the group who sides with stupid... Asking someone if they would rather shoot the 140 class of the spike and them saying the spike is stupid.. Fat chic or Playboy center fold.. I know Fat chic.. BULL S&^*....

For you guys who just want to get out of your car and fall over a deer, go doe hunting.. Please.. I like how most avoid my posts.. quote your statistics against the heads I have on my wall... I find deer each year... cause I work at it....

None of the loud mouths said anything about the tresspassers on my farm or the idea one would have to work for a deer.. control scent, not over hunt a stand, etc... Typical PA mentality.. I can say that because I have overcome it... I have hunted all over and I like my farm in PA.. but I do not like shooting spikes or yearlings.. they are easy.. like the fat chic.. I like a challenge... Meat and easy = Does.. Hunt bucks for sport... you are not killing off you are improving the carrying capacity of the land..

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

Who do you think you are, coming on a site and telling me that my way of thinking is wrong because you feel that you deserve a bigger racked buck. I saw on the PGC controlled site that you grew up in Schylkill County, well I grew up on the border between Carbon and Schylkill Counties.

Your not going to come here and tell me that you shot 10 and 12 point bucks between the stripping holes, scrub oakof the Broad Mountain and Springhouse Mountain. I have hunting Schylkill and Carbon for many years, there never were enough bucks that you even pass one up every year, no less multiple sighting over the course of a season,because there were few hunters that got a buck each year.

I now own my own land in Lehigh County, with one of my neighbors we don't shoot buck unless they have seven or eight points andantlers wider than the ears. That is our choice and we did it before AR was established, but I feel it should be the hunters choice, not so people like you can have the head mounted at some other hunters expense.

With your attitude, were you a fast runner in high school or did you ride the bus?

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

I figured you would pick the fat chic with your bigger is better mentality. :D

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

My attitude? Are you kidding me? I merely question the old guard and I don't know crap because why? I'm YOUNGER?
I do love how the older generation immediately gets up in arms whenever the wise ones are questioned in their thinking.:eek:Who do YOU think YOU are telling me MY way of thinking is wrong? LOl It's a 2 way street.

Where did I say I DESERVE a big racked buck? Because that's what I choose to hunt and question someone else what they would TRULY prefer?

You stated in 54 years of hunting you've never seen or shot a 10pt buck. Correct?
54 YEARS!! [:-]

I asked a simple question........do you not think there is something possibly wrong with the game management in this state over that time period for you to have neverseen a buck of that caliber. It's because of the mentality of the hunters not because they couldn't possibly live in those areas. I grew up just like 99% of the hunters in this state probably did......if it had spikes 3 1/2" long it ate a bullet. We didn't know any better, we never questioned it.......it's just the way it was. Some of us grew up, looked around and saw that there might be more to this game.

I grew up in Minersville hunting those stripping pits. Not exactly big buck USA as you know, and I took my share of small bucks when I was younger......but like I illustrated in my fishing example I moved on to another stage in my hunting.
And guess what? I didn't start seeing bigger bucks consistently until AR's were implimented. No change to my hunting ability or stretegies......but they don't work. :eek:

Good for you that you wanted to do something better for your land and the deer and the quality of the experience........however the rest ofthe majority of the state needs to be told to do something similar for a reason.

Tell me this WHY did you adopt those standards for your own personal hunting ground? Bigger bucks and a higher quality experienceor you felt it was best for the herd?
In either case you are voluntairly implimenting a strategy that themajorityof the state is resisting.

And don't worry about ME having to run from anything. LOL Funny stuff. :D

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

Sorry to break your bubble, but you nor the PGC invented hunting for bigger bucks and larger antlers. I had know a lot of those old timer, that ruined hunting as you say, that when they reached their fifties and sixities in age, started shooting only bigger bucks. These weren't just guys that shot bucks every year, some of them shot very few in their liketime, they just enjoyed hunting and didn't care if they got a buck that year. But the big difference between then is now is they didn't complain about hunters shooting smaller bucks, to them it was all about the challenge. Now all the AR guys think they are shooting mature, smart 2 1/2 year old bucks with eight points, but what they are actually shooting is those Y bucks that didn't get any smarter. It used to be that shooting a nice eight point buck was an honor, now you need to shoot a ten to twelve pointer to compare to those eight pointers from years before AR.

Yes, I have set a standard for my property, but AR's has taken away my ability to shoot a wounded undersize antlered buck legally, a wide racked buck with spikes or three or four points, plus some of these odball bucks we are started to have around.

We really had nice racks in our area before AR, but what we disbursed was a lot better than we are getting back. We have a one antlered four point, a one antlered four point with a spike on the other side, a three point to one side and the other antler bent down that you can't tell the number of points. We do have a nice eight with a wide rack, but he only show up on our trail camera between 6 PM and 4 AM, had a nice yearling six pointer, but he was taken out the first day by another neighbor.

I'm not saying AR's is messing up the racks in my area, but no one can prove it isn't either. I'm starting to get a little frustrated by saving button bucks of good quality, then be disbursed in Fall to be shot by everyone,then in return I get these three and four point yearlings. What has happened to our six and seven point yearling, which turn into eight and nine point 18" spreads at 2 1/2 year old? It's because those guys that used to take those two and three pointers, now have to stay in the woods longer and shoot those six and seven pointers.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

The reason most avoid your posts is because they don't make any sense and hardly deserve a reply. Anyone that thinks controlling scent and not over hunting a stand are the solutions to the problems created by ARs simply doesn't have a clue. The fact is we have over 900K hunters pursuing around 50K legal 2.5 buck and probably less than half of those would have trophy size racks. The fact is there are fewer 2.5+ buck now than in 2002 ,before any bucks were saved by ARs. ARs have failed to double the number of 8 pts, it didn't decrease late breeding, productivity has decreased and more hunters are quitting. Furthermore, there is no evidence that supports the claim that our 2.5+ bucks are bigger due to ARs.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

Same thing here in NY. I know5 guys over 60 years old that have never killed anythingbigger than a6 or 8pointscoring under 90 points. They have dozens of racks laying all over the place, spikes, 4 pts and 6 pts. They are still wanting to shoot a big buck but are still killing all the small ones. Some of these guys tell me all of the big ones are nocternal and thats the problem. It is sad that they have hunted their whole life and still havnt figured out how bucks get big (age). It is also sad for thebucks themselves that they are not allowed to live more than a year and a half unless they are very lucky. One and a half years of life,give me a break!

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

Yes and no.....first our family hunts the wmu 2f near Tionesta for the past 40 years. In the early days they had seen numbers in the 100's... herds running the mountains with a few bucks mixed in. Now as time goes on those numbers are way down. Talking to the locals even people just don't see the deer like before. As far as antler size the same rule always was in affect shot anything with horns, with a few nice bucks here and there. It's time to end DOE SEASON for a while in the wmu we hunt. All the camps in our section feel the same. Or go back to a later doe season like the past. The town stores had another rush of people shopping and spending money. And deer camps were full with happy less stressed hunters for the doe season. To wrap this up heres our totals for this year.
12 hunters.....
1 buck (3x4) small
2 does
as for me seen 5 total deer opening day in 10" of snow..wind blowing and cold.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

bluebird, i hope we remain friends on here, you do have good info to read.;)

but, hey, i dont like the HR that went a little to far but i LOVE the AR because i am a buck hunter.

young buck of a year or 2 i feel should live a little.

it is bringing in some hunters that did not come in,most i talk to like the AR.

MEAT HUNTERS,they dont like anything but meat but they dont speak for most of us,most will kill off every deer in area and move on to another one.

heck, they are going to 2B again this year,i hope they stay there and most are my friends too.:eek:

here is good one, the MEAT HUNTERS said this to me,sproul you will find all kinds of small bucks shot by hunters that cant see horns to count.

well, guess what, i only know of 1 in area i hunt that was found and that is questionable too because the hunters that are saying this are MEAT HUNTERS, they dont like the AR rule and will FIB.;)

now this year, the hunters that shot a small buck and paid 25 dollars and kept the deer days are GONE.:D

you are not going to keep the buck you shot illegallyon purpose,the PGC will take deer and fine will be higher.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

I am absolutely dumbfounded by the guys,including moderator Matt that feel that the only way to consider yourself sucessfull is to kill a 5 or 6 year old 12 point and should somehow be ashamed of shooting a 1 1/2 year old 4 point.Remember the old saying about opinions Matt,ant it applies to you too.Just because you and your crowd got "new" ideas doesn't make them right and the older way of thinking wrong.Guys like you can go hunt in Iowa,Illinois,and Kansas but as the saying goes "This ain't Kansas anymore Dorothy" and to try to make this state into one of those just ain't gonna happen and you know it.You dis on the GOOD OLD DAYS mentality but apparently never had the chance to experience a real deer camp that many of us old guys enjoyed.You just can't comprehend the fact that some guy would actually get enjoyment from shooting a spike not realizing that the size of the horns didn't really matter.Go ahead and watch your TV fantasy shows and dream on that some day you wont have to leave PA to kill that 180 class buck and sooner or later you'll have to snap back into reality and realize it will never happen in your lifetime.Look at the stats from you beloved PGC and realize that for the most part all your doing is prolonging the inevitable for a 1 1/2 year old forkhorn by a year or two and most will never make it any furhter.I worked my ass off this year and was fortunate to kill one of those 10 points,but am no prouder of that deer than any of the other buck I have been fortunate enough to kill along the way.Change just for the sake of change isn't always right or necessary just because you can,and please quit comparing this state and its situation to all these other state.Pa ,it's hunters, and its situation is unique in many ways and to try and change it into something its not is doing everyone a disservice.Remember,a big set of horns don't even make good soup.And as far as the "fat chick" she'll probably be ten times better that any of those stuck up,self centered,silicone filled playboy models.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

fellas2, last time i shot a spike was about 45 years ago .

my dad would always say, that is your next years 6 point .;)

we had lots of doe to fill the freezer as some said and we did kill doe then as there was lots of them.but only a few out of EACH AREA.;)

next year we would usually have 3 or 4 nice buck to hunt.

this all changed in 70s,deer numbers started to get less do to the out of town hunters coming here in great numbers to kill off our doe.[:@]

they did not care for horns only taking lots of meat back to harrisburg,pa.[:@]


i guess its how you were raised,I HAVE FRIENDS THAT WOULD KILL EVERY DOE OFF THEY COULD AND MOST DONT FEED A DEER IN WINTER OR CARE FOR THE DEER.[:@]

they want MEAT only.

most were never any good at hunting anyhow.


i can say this, AR is making better hunters out of all of us, we are taking our time to shoot and enjoy deer hunting more.

when a big buck gets away like he did this year in archery to me, I GET EXCITED,IT MAKES ME WANT TO GET UP EACH DAY AND GO HUNTING:D

if it was EASY, i would sleep in and not have any fun;)

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

It isn't "just" about rack size for myself or my fiance's boy. It's about makingus better hunters and hunting for the experience not just killing for the sake of killing. And for your info... the boy shot a nice doe on Friday which was his first deer and passed up a spike but harvested a nice Y buck for his first buck on Saturday. If he had more days to hunt he would have passed on the Y also butI have to spend some time taking his mom out this week so this was probably his last chance for the season.He was equally thrilled for having harvested each but now he has his sights set on an AR legal buck or bigger for next year. This first year for him was what it should have been- getting a deer under his belt and now he is ready to move on to abigger buck next year. This is not unlike any other lesson we have taught him about succeeding inlife... Always try your best and don't settle for less than what you are capable of achieving.

Just curious, since you believe we have to kill button bucks and fawn doeto meet the PAGC'c harvest quota.If we no longer have an AR, should we then go back to the 3 days of doe after Buck with rifle season or just start killing every deer that walks in front of us all season long? Do you believe non AR bucks make up enough of the population that if we could then kill spikes we would meet the kill quota with a 3 day doe season?

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

We have had our best buck hunting ever since AR.
Even up in the north we are getting some great bucks every year.
Most are killed second day for some reason.
Here is yet another second day kill from this year to add to our collection from the NC area.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

Sproul, i have no problem with people who agree that the AR is a good thing,what I have a problem with is those who think it's the only way.It's absolutely amazing that for decades the deer herd herd flourished in this state under the management of the PGC and everything was good.Now,in this decade,everything we did in the past was wrong and we must turn around and have a new program with new rules and new restrictions forced down our throats.No one can tell me everything went south in a short period of time that we suddenly have to take drastic measures or suffer dire consequences.If things are that bad,then was it not the PGC that let it get that way ? So now we are to put our trust in the same organization that was responsible for the problem in the first place.All it takes is a look at the license sale declining at 2.5 times the national average to see what many think of the the "new wave" thinking going on.I'll wait for a few more years to finalize judgement,but for now I and many I know have great reservations with the whole scenario.

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

killed second day because the HUNTERS are sitting the first day.

almost 80% of bucks killed according to my info i keep each year are because a hunter or crew drove the buck to person sitting.;)

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

just like you dont like the AR , i dont like HR:eek:.

ALL THOSE TAGS ISSUED DID A NUMBER ON DEER.

i am concerned that i am seeing no fawns,hunters i talk too are not seeing fawns also.

it has to be coyotes/bear.

i hear coyotes barking like h around the june15 th area, i dont know if thats when fawns are born but barking is bigtime then.[:@]

if we dont get these coyotes killed off our hunting is going to get a lot worst.

we got 2 out of 4 in my area and now i see 3 are back.[:@][:@]

its time that state puts a bounty on coyotes and we will have to pay more each year to PGCto pay this out.

we have to do this,its thatsBAD RIGHT NOW.[:@]

RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
 

Sproul, you are wrong in my case. I hunted public land and saw exactly one hunter outside of our party the entire trip.
This buck was actually not pushed. He and another smaller buck were running a late doe all around the valley. We saw a total of 5 bucks on the trip in that valley. I passed on a 1.5 year old 7 point that was sniffing for does at first light opening day. My brother finally got a shot at the pictured buck on second day.
We also saw a group of 3 does and 4 fawns and one half spike.