pa antler restrictions yes or no?
11-26-2008, 08:17 PM
#21
Fork Horn
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 147
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
The simple fact is the PGC hasn't provided one iota of data that shows our 2.5+ buck are of any better quality than before ARs If they had that dat you can rest assure that it would be making headlines in the PGC press releases.
Once again I am going to point out that no one ever told you or anyone else that there would be any change in the antler size of 2 ½ year old bucks with antler restrictions. If you think that is what was said you really do have some serious comprehension deficiencies.
Bucks of the same age will not have their antler development influenced by antler restrictions. The antler development will be influenced by the age of the buck along with the nutritional conditions available to the buck. The affects of the food supply and winter conditions will have a great influence on the antler development of the bucks, especially the younger bucks, from one year to the next, but antler restrictions alone has no affect on the antlers of bucks of the same age from one year to another. No one from the Game Commission ever said they did or would produce beter antlers on 2 1/2 year old bucks even though they did say there woudl be more 2 1/2 year old bucks available to hunters, and there are.
I really suspect that entire line of thinking, as you promote it, is nothing more then another of your deceptive stunts being used inyour attempt to garner support for your misguided agenda.
R.S. Bodenhorn
11-26-2008, 08:24 PM
#22
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
ORIGINAL: bluebird2
That is such a juvenile ploy I am a bit surprised even you would try and play it. The fact is Dr. Rosenberry admitted he didn't know if ARs increased or decreased the rack size of 2.5+ buck.Now here is a simple question for you. Do you know why Dr. R. made that statement?
That is such a juvenile ploy I am a bit surprised even you would try and play it. The fact is Dr. Rosenberry admitted he didn't know if ARs increased or decreased the rack size of 2.5+ buck.Now here is a simple question for you. Do you know why Dr. R. made that statement?
Once again Bluebird takes the subject of apples and answers with a statement about oranges.
You have said twice now that there is no evidence that 2.5 racks are better (or worse) in PA after AR. I agree and again, I say so what? There is no evidence of either because it's not an issue. The issue was to get more bucks to the 2.5 age class.
Do you dispute that the average 2.5 buck has better antlers than the average 1.5 buck?
Here's a direct question that I bet you'll dodge. Do you deny that you arethe banned member formerly known as deaddeer AKA, ddear AKA deerfly? A simple yes or no would be refreshing
Its a shame that the mods apparently dont monitor this area any more.
11-26-2008, 08:27 PM
#23
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
If you think that is what was said you really do have some serious comprehension deficiencies.
Wrong again. We were told we would have more and larger buck than ever before and both claims were a lie.. The only way that could happen is if the 2.5+ buck were larger due to antler restrictions and it didn't happen.
No one from the Game Commission ever said they did or would produce beter antlers on 2 1/2 year old bucks even though they did say there woudl be more 2 1/2 year old bucks available to hunters, and there are.
The claim was made that by improving the age structure ,the superior dominant 2.5+ buck would do the vast majority of the breeding,thus improving the gene pool and producing bigger racked buck. As a result many hunters believe the 2.5 buck now have bigger racks and weigh more than before ARs.
11-26-2008, 09:10 PM
#24
Fork Horn
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 227
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
ORIGINAL: BTBowhunter
The juvenile ploy is taking a statement I made about the research results on antler size of 1.5 deer being no indication of the bucks eventual potential and twisting it around to your meaningless statement about 2.5 racks in PA
Once again Bluebird takes the subject of apples and answers with a statement about oranges.
You have said twice now that there is no evidence that 2.5 racks are better (or worse) in PA after AR. I agree and again, I say so what? There is no evidence of either because it's not an issue. The issue was to get more bucks to the 2.5 age class.
Do you dispute that the average 2.5 buck has better antlers than the average 1.5 buck?
Here's a direct question that I bet you'll dodge. Do you deny that you arethe banned member formerly known as deaddeer AKA, ddear AKA deerfly? A simple yes or no would be refreshing
Its a shame that the mods apparently dont monitor this area any more.
ORIGINAL: bluebird2
That is such a juvenile ploy I am a bit surprised even you would try and play it. The fact is Dr. Rosenberry admitted he didn't know if ARs increased or decreased the rack size of 2.5+ buck.Now here is a simple question for you. Do you know why Dr. R. made that statement?
That is such a juvenile ploy I am a bit surprised even you would try and play it. The fact is Dr. Rosenberry admitted he didn't know if ARs increased or decreased the rack size of 2.5+ buck.Now here is a simple question for you. Do you know why Dr. R. made that statement?
Once again Bluebird takes the subject of apples and answers with a statement about oranges.
You have said twice now that there is no evidence that 2.5 racks are better (or worse) in PA after AR. I agree and again, I say so what? There is no evidence of either because it's not an issue. The issue was to get more bucks to the 2.5 age class.
Do you dispute that the average 2.5 buck has better antlers than the average 1.5 buck?
Here's a direct question that I bet you'll dodge. Do you deny that you arethe banned member formerly known as deaddeer AKA, ddear AKA deerfly? A simple yes or no would be refreshing
Its a shame that the mods apparently dont monitor this area any more.
11-26-2008, 09:27 PM
#25
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
ORIGINAL: BTBowhunter
Uh, yes they did. Go do your homework!
You are not telling the truth. The studies did not determine the age of the spike bucks to a degree that they could determine if they were late born or not. You are simply making things up to support your agenda.
Just like RSB ,BTB doesn't know enough about deer management to defend his position without the protection of the mods. What BTB doesn't realize is that the mods that once protected his views are no longer controlling this MB.
11-26-2008, 09:36 PM
#26
Fork Horn
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 147
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
ORIGINAL: bluebird2
Wrong again. We were told we would have more and larger buck than ever before and both claims were a lie.. The only way that could happen is if the 2.5+ buck were larger due to antler restrictions and it didn't happen.
The claim was made that by improving the age structure ,the superior dominant 2.5+ buck would do the vast majority of the breeding,thus improving the gene pool and producing bigger racked buck. As a result many hunters believe the 2.5 buck now have bigger racks and weigh more than before ARs.
If you think that is what was said you really do have some serious comprehension deficiencies.
Wrong again. We were told we would have more and larger buck than ever before and both claims were a lie.. The only way that could happen is if the 2.5+ buck were larger due to antler restrictions and it didn't happen.
No one from the Game Commission ever said they did or would produce beter antlers on 2 1/2 year old bucks even though they did say there woudl be more 2 1/2 year old bucks available to hunters, and there are.
The claim was made that by improving the age structure ,the superior dominant 2.5+ buck would do the vast majority of the breeding,thus improving the gene pool and producing bigger racked buck. As a result many hunters believe the 2.5 buck now have bigger racks and weigh more than before ARs.
Having larger antlers on 2 ½ year old bucks most certainly is not the only way you would have more and bigger buck then before antler restrictions. For you to suggest something so absurd clearly proves just how completely clueless you are.
Before antler restrictions we killed about 80% of our 1 ½ year old bucks every year. When we went to antler restrictions we started protecting about 50% of those 1 ½ year old bucks and allowing them to live a year longer. Since that then makes those 2 ½ year old instead of 1 ½ year old when they are available for harvest certainly means both more and bigger bucks even though those 2 ½ year old bucks are no larger then previous 2 ½ year old bucks.
You do know that 2 ½ year old bucks typically have larger antlers then 1 ½ year old bucks don’t you?
Here are the history of 2 ½ year old bucks harvested across the state for the past twenty five years so al can see how close that number has come to doubling since Doctor Alt first brought the topic to the forefront in 1999. Starting in 1999 we started to see some voluntary movement toward antler restrictions among the hunting fraternity so the period between 1998 and 2002 showed some improvement from the previous fifteen years.
Years…………..2 ½ and older bucks harvested per square mile
83-87.………………………….0.65
88-92.………………………….0.68
93-97.………………………….0.68
98-02.………………………….1.07
03-07.………………………….1.29
As you can see the number of 2 ½ and older bucks has almost doubled as compared to the old traditional data for 2 ½ and older bucks.
I will agree that the total buck numbers probably haven’t doubled yet, but that is most likely only due to the lower fawn recruitment rates we had following those harsh winter years a few years ago. Hunters can’t harvest deer, as adult bucks, when they died within days of being born. As fawn recruitment improves so will the buck harvest, but not until two years later when the those fawns become adult bucks.
R.S. Bodenhorn
11-26-2008, 10:41 PM
#27
Fork Horn
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 227
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
ORIGINAL: RSB
Having larger antlers on 2 ½ year old bucks most certainly is not the only way you would have more and bigger buck then before antler restrictions. For you to suggest something so absurd clearly proves just how completely clueless you are.
Before antler restrictions we killed about 80% of our 1 ½ year old bucks every year. When we went to antler restrictions we started protecting about 50% of those 1 ½ year old bucks and allowing them to live a year longer. Since that then makes those 2 ½ year old instead of 1 ½ year old when they are available for harvest certainly means both more and bigger bucks even though those 2 ½ year old bucks are no larger then previous 2 ½ year old bucks.
You do know that 2 ½ year old bucks typically have larger antlers then 1 ½ year old bucks don’t you?
Here are the history of 2 ½ year old bucks harvested across the state for the past twenty five years so al can see how close that number has come to doubling since Doctor Alt first brought the topic to the forefront in 1999. Starting in 1999 we started to see some voluntary movement toward antler restrictions among the hunting fraternity so the period between 1998 and 2002 showed some improvement from the previous fifteen years.
Years…………..2 ½ and older bucks harvested per square mile
83-87.………………………….0.65
88-92.………………………….0.68
93-97.………………………….0.68
98-02.………………………….1.07
03-07.………………………….1.29
As you can see the number of 2 ½ and older bucks has almost doubled as compared to the old traditional data for 2 ½ and older bucks.
I will agree that the total buck numbers probably haven’t doubled yet, but that is most likely only due to the lower fawn recruitment rates we had following those harsh winter years a few years ago. Hunters can’t harvest deer, as adult bucks, when they died within days of being born. As fawn recruitment improves so will the buck harvest, but not until two years later when the those fawns become adult bucks.
R.S. Bodenhorn
ORIGINAL: bluebird2
Wrong again. We were told we would have more and larger buck than ever before and both claims were a lie.. The only way that could happen is if the 2.5+ buck were larger due to antler restrictions and it didn't happen.
The claim was made that by improving the age structure ,the superior dominant 2.5+ buck would do the vast majority of the breeding,thus improving the gene pool and producing bigger racked buck. As a result many hunters believe the 2.5 buck now have bigger racks and weigh more than before ARs.
If you think that is what was said you really do have some serious comprehension deficiencies.
Wrong again. We were told we would have more and larger buck than ever before and both claims were a lie.. The only way that could happen is if the 2.5+ buck were larger due to antler restrictions and it didn't happen.
No one from the Game Commission ever said they did or would produce beter antlers on 2 1/2 year old bucks even though they did say there woudl be more 2 1/2 year old bucks available to hunters, and there are.
The claim was made that by improving the age structure ,the superior dominant 2.5+ buck would do the vast majority of the breeding,thus improving the gene pool and producing bigger racked buck. As a result many hunters believe the 2.5 buck now have bigger racks and weigh more than before ARs.
Having larger antlers on 2 ½ year old bucks most certainly is not the only way you would have more and bigger buck then before antler restrictions. For you to suggest something so absurd clearly proves just how completely clueless you are.
Before antler restrictions we killed about 80% of our 1 ½ year old bucks every year. When we went to antler restrictions we started protecting about 50% of those 1 ½ year old bucks and allowing them to live a year longer. Since that then makes those 2 ½ year old instead of 1 ½ year old when they are available for harvest certainly means both more and bigger bucks even though those 2 ½ year old bucks are no larger then previous 2 ½ year old bucks.
You do know that 2 ½ year old bucks typically have larger antlers then 1 ½ year old bucks don’t you?
Here are the history of 2 ½ year old bucks harvested across the state for the past twenty five years so al can see how close that number has come to doubling since Doctor Alt first brought the topic to the forefront in 1999. Starting in 1999 we started to see some voluntary movement toward antler restrictions among the hunting fraternity so the period between 1998 and 2002 showed some improvement from the previous fifteen years.
Years…………..2 ½ and older bucks harvested per square mile
83-87.………………………….0.65
88-92.………………………….0.68
93-97.………………………….0.68
98-02.………………………….1.07
03-07.………………………….1.29
As you can see the number of 2 ½ and older bucks has almost doubled as compared to the old traditional data for 2 ½ and older bucks.
I will agree that the total buck numbers probably haven’t doubled yet, but that is most likely only due to the lower fawn recruitment rates we had following those harsh winter years a few years ago. Hunters can’t harvest deer, as adult bucks, when they died within days of being born. As fawn recruitment improves so will the buck harvest, but not until two years later when the those fawns become adult bucks.
R.S. Bodenhorn
I do know that since AR started the percent of 2 1/2 year old bucks has decreased in numbers and also as a percent of the total harvest, I'm sure RSB would be glad give those number, if not I'm sure Bluebird could give them to you.
During the years 1998 and 2002, we harvested 947,701 antlered deer for a five year average of 189,540. During the years 2003 and 2007, we harvested 631,670 antlered deer for a five year average of 126,334. I'm sure your impressed with our manage plan that we harvested over 60,000 less antlered deer per year on average, but it does get better or worse, depending on whether youra hunter or the PGC. During the five year period of 2003 and 2007, all five yearly harvests set a record, we had never shot so fewantlered deer, since the PGC started estimating our harvest in 1986.
Let me also point out that our 2007 antlered harvest was 109,200, with 2000 and 2001 having a harvest of over 200,000 in both years.
As all of my figures come from the PGC web site, you will have to form your own opinion of our current managementplan. As I have my own private
landto hunt these changes haven't effect my hunting, but think how the guy feels that has to hunt our state lands and the out of state hunter that pays five times more for a license.
11-27-2008, 06:05 AM
#28
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
Here are the history of 2 ½ year old bucks harvested across the state for the past twenty five years so al can see how close that number has come to doubling since Doctor Alt first brought the topic to the forefront in 1999. Starting in 1999 we started to see some voluntary movement toward antler restrictions among the hunting fraternity so the period between 1998 and 2002 showed some improvement from the previous fifteen years.
Years…………..2 ½ and older bucks harvested per square mile
83-87.………………………….0.65
88-92.………………………….0.68
93-97.………………………….0.68
98-02.………………………….1.07
03-07.………………………….1.29
As you can see the number of 2 ½ and older bucks has almost doubled as compared to the old traditional data for 2 ½ and older bucks.
Years…………..2 ½ and older bucks harvested per square mile
83-87.………………………….0.65
88-92.………………………….0.68
93-97.………………………….0.68
98-02.………………………….1.07
03-07.………………………….1.29
As you can see the number of 2 ½ and older bucks has almost doubled as compared to the old traditional data for 2 ½ and older bucks.
Now here are the facts without the spin and manipulation. The 2.5+ buck harvest more than doubled from 1996 when we harvested 24,865 2.5+ buck to 2002 when we harvested 52,602 ,2.5+ buck and that is an increase of 111%!!! The highest 2,5+ buck harvest occurred in 2004 when we harvested 62,399 which is only 16% more than in 2002 and far from doubling the number of 2.5+ buck harvested in 2002.
Alt claimed that, " hunters would likely see MORE and Bigger" buck than every before. He did not say they would see more big buck. In order to have bigger buck than ever before the 2.5 + buck produced by ARs would have to be bigger than the pre-AR 2.5+ buck.
11-27-2008, 06:57 AM
#29
Fork Horn
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location:
Posts: 200
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
I vote no on antler restrictions. I would like to ask RSB a question I notice you love to debate HR and AR on several message boards all day and night do you ever go into the field and patrol or perform any habitat work on state game lands or is your job description to patrol message boards to promote and defend the present HR/AR plan
11-27-2008, 07:04 AM
#30
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 175
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
Once again my two cents just for sh**s and giggles.If we are in fact killing twice as many 2 year old bucks now than before AR,are we not just prolonging the inevitable for 365 days ? I would rather see some facts on the harvest of mature 5 or 6 year old bucks thanquibbling about the 2 year old ones.Granted,the 2 year old ones should have bigger antlers,but unless these deer are allowed to reach a fully mature age we will never see the real benefits of letting these deer walk.Seems to me all we're doing is increasing the average antler size of harvested bucks while sacrificng the numbers of them harvested.If we're not harvesting the number of 2 year olds as Bluebird and Coalcracker show in their post,then my question to the Pgc is why not ? These 2 and 3 year old buck should have larger antlers and therefor available for the taking for the majority of hunters.From my personal experience i'm seeing a slight increase in average antler size but far fewer bucks being taken overall.