i believe you are right,only because i cant find to many reasons other than that for less fawns or no fawns.

here is what i see in wmu2g.

we had fawns lets say 15 years ago.

i noticed then that we only shot old doe.

now, its fill tags with any doe and fawn.

next, we did not have coyotes,i never saw coyote print until around 1996 area.

we only had 3 days of doe and only county wide licenses.

back then MOST of hunters never shot a fawn.
today, its BROWN ITS DOWN WITH DOE/DMAP TAG.
they even call a fawn a FURBALL AFTER SHOOTING IT.

we have more bears than ever before, penn state says bears are killing fawns too.

where the doe are somewhat protected, we have fawns.

i have 3 fawns for 3 doe in my yard, yet i observed 3 doe where i hunt and NO FAWNS.


difference, no coyotes/bears /bobcats.

some say FOOD,that could be reason also but i really dont have anymore food than apples in summer than in woods.

also this is very important, MY DEER DONT STAY IN MY YARD IN WINTER, THEY GO UP ON HILL ON STATEFORESTLAND TO LIVE OUT WINTER.

yet, the few deer i get in spring, will have 2 or 3 fawns.

but not ones in woods..

i still feel its like DR.ALT said to me with state rep hanna at our table.

he said, SPROUL BY HAVING THE EARLY OCT SEASON FOR DOE WE WILL REDUCE THE FAWN RECURITMENT .
he said also, for this to work the hunters must not shoot a fAWN.

he also said,SPROUL SHOOT OLD DOE.
reason for that is older doe are ones that have fawns.

so, if we are killing the older doe and fawns and anything that moves, i expect the fawn numbers have to decline.

i really believe with numbers of doe left that FOOD is not what is causing less fawns to be born.

we had lots of food last few years and very few fawns, it has to be something else causing it.

Boy talk about someone cherry picking data in their efforts to misrepresent the facts and you would most certainly achieve the top honors.

Yes we are harvesting fewer bucks then before antler restrictions. The objective of antler restrictions was to protect about 50% of the 1 ½ year old bucks from being harvested and it worked.

But, your comment about harvesting fewer 2 ½ year old bucks now is purely nonsense and a complete misrepresentation of the truth when one looks at the total picture instead of just one poor harvest year.
Here are the buck harvest facts for the past twenty five years.

Years……………..0.5.………………..1.5. ……………….>2.5.………adult males………...all males

83-87.……………0.76.………………2.45.…⠀¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦0.64.…………3.09.………….â €¦..3.85
88-92.……………1.15.………………2.93.…⠀¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦0.67.…………3.60.………….â €¦..4.75
93-97.……………1.22.………………3.02.…⠀¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦0.67.…………3.69.………….â €¦..4.91
98-02.……………1.30.………………3.27.…⠀¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦0.92.…………4.19.…………†¦â€¦5.49
03-07.……………1.27.………………1.51.…⠀¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦1.28.…………2.79.…………†¦â€¦4.06

The fact is that since antler restrictions we are protecting more of our younger bucks and harvesting more older bucks then ever in the history of deer hunting in this state. That is a positive for the future of deer management and deer hunting for those that really care about the future instead of just their own selfish and narrow minded interests.

The best of deer hunting in this state is yet to come for those willing to stop snotting around and actually go out hunting.

R.S. Bodenhorn

Actually, RSB, Gary Alt predicted a noticeable decline in antlered harvest for ONLY ONE YEAR!....Why is it that here we are 5 years into his "new and improved" deer program and buck harvest has steadily declined? What are the advertisements for out of state hunters saying these days? "Come hunt in deer densities less than 5 dpsm, and the lowest buck harvest in 40 years?" bet that will bring the hunters running. Obviously some things just aren't going as he predicted, are they? Not to mention he DID claim that reducing the herd would cause a "more natural breeding ecology" and produce larger bucks than we had previously ....not due to age alone, but improving genetics. This has not been shown to be true, and if it was, wouldn't the PGC be shouting it from the rooftops by now? Also you earlier stated the highest predation levels we have ever seen in the NC counties. Shouldn't we be reducing allocations there, before the coyotes reduce the herd even further, or isn't that a concern? Also, is there one single wildlife agency in the nation other than our own PGC, who is intentionally managing ANY forest at sustained owdd of less than 8 dpsm? Oh yeah....best deer hunting in the nation. Gimme a break. I think out of state license sales would be a good indicator of quality of hunting. Wonder how low ours will be this year? Wonder how high Illinois' will be?

Talk about someone using 5 year averages to hide the truth.Now here is the truth about 2.5+ buck harvests.

Year Total Buck Harvest % 2.5+ 2.5+ Buck


1996--------153,432-------------16.2------------------------24,856
1997--------176,677-------------18.6------------------------32,862
1998--------181,449-------------19.4------------------------35,201
1999--------194,371-------------20.0------------------------38,874
2000--------203,221-------------18.3------------------------37,189
2001--------203,247-------------21.6------------------------43,901
2002--------165,416-------------31.8------------------------52,602
2003--------142,270-------------43.6------------------------62,030
2004--------124,410-------------50.2------------------------62,399
2005--------120,500------------~48%-----------------------57,600
2006--------135,290--------------44%-----------------------59,527
2007--------109,200--------------44%-----------------------48,048

So, we are in fact harvesting fewer 2.5+ buck than we did in 2002, before any 1.5 buck were protected by ARs.

Since I started this latest hornets nest, I might as well chime in.

I really think that hunters as a whole in this state need social reengineering if you will. By that I mean this. It seems as though a lot of hunters treat hunting season like buying groceries. Too many hunters seem to think that they have the right to fill their freezer each year with all of the tags they purchase. Sorry, its hunting, not grocery shopping. It's a sport, hobby, pastetime, or whatever you may call it.

While I do agree with some that the PGC's deer program has failed in some areas. This needs to be addressed. I'm not sure how. Micromanaging areas with less deer would be very difficult at best. But if you're finding less deer in the areas you've always hunted, why hunt there? Go some place else and hunt. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Isn't that the definition of insanity?

However, I must disagree with the people saying our deer herd is worse off now than it was before all of this took place. Yes, we have fewer deer now, but we also have healthier deer and more deer carrying impressive headgear. There is not a guy alive who hunts that doesn't want to see bigger racks. Leaving the small bucks walk will only improve your chances.

We are seeing a decline in hunter recruitment. It's been happening before the new deer management program started. There is a lot more factors than a few less deer in the woods attributing to this. Trust me, I know. I have a 10 year old step son who is into all types of sports and other activities. He's interested in hunting, but we can't find the time to get him out. Heck, I have a hard time getting out as much as I'd like to because of the kids' activites.

Sproul, you made the comment that the dads' are shooting deer for the kids. If it is that serious of a problem in your area, do something about it. Call your local WCO and put the bug in his ear. If these hunters feel watched, they'll probably knock it off. However, I don't feel that's the only issue here. Think about it. That type of thing has been going on long before any management program was in place. Most kids usually only get to hunt a few days at the beginning of the week. They're usually in school by the end of the week and get a couple Saturdays after that.

Bottom line is us as hunters need to take more responsibility for our actions and not blame the PGC for everything that goes wrong in your neck of the woods. I hunt of well managed private property. We've been going by an 8pt rule for years. However, our buck/doe ratio was terrible for years. This was until the surrounding prison property opened up and left hunters kill does. They've been taking approximately 150 deer a year off of there for the past 10-15 years. Not only has our buck harvest been better, but our deer our heavier now. Seems to me that what has happened on our ground and surrounding prison property is what is now happening state wide.

Muzzyman88,that's great that you hunt a well managed property,but not all of us are fortunate to have that luxury.Most out there do not have the time ,money,or resources to go out and find such a precious resource so are the saddled with hunting overcrowded shot out state game lands,or worse yet giving up a sport we love because of the frustration level we now encounter.As I said before,whitetail hunting has become a huge moneymakeall across this country and Canada as well,so why would people give average Joe permission to hunt on their property for free when they can direct lease or sublease ie: www.basecampleasing.com and get $10-$30 per acre or more for sitting back and doing nothing but cash the checks.The Allegheny national forest in the north are basically void of deer where thay were once over run with them.The southwest and southeast counties that had few of no deer 20-30 years ago are now over run with them,but the population levels and restrictions all but make it impossible to hunt them.Why do you think local municipailties have resorted to hiring proffesional marksmen to come in and kill as many as possible.The PGC has done almost nothing to solve either of these.It's very apparent that there solution is to reduce the herd which in turn reduces the number of hunters which goes on to reduce the number of headaches they have to deal with.I'm not blaming them for everythingbut the Pgc has to shoulde a lot of the blame for the Disappearance of almost all small game species except for thos wild chicken thet call turkeys,as well as the mismanagement of what was once the the #1 state for whitetails.(Texas being #1 only because of sheer numbers).If thing are so great hunters would not be hanging up their guns or going to neighboring states to hunt like they are now.

There aren't just a few less deer there are 600,000 fewer deer or 13.3 fewer deer PSM. Then add to that the fact that the doe are being harvested during the concurrent season , which means hunters aren't seeing over an additional 150,000 does that they would have seen if doe season was after the 2 week buck season as before.

fellas2

You don't have to spend a lot of money to get access to private land but you may have to invest more time. I pay big $$ for a lease in Illinois. That is just how it works for an out of stater out there, period.

In Pa however, I still get to hunt very good quality land near my home on the 2B 2D border simply by investing the timeto develop relationships with people who own the land. It's a year round effort but it's worth it. Maybe you've tried and not been successful at getting permission. Me too but persitence eventually pays off. What I see all to often is guys simply looking from their truck for a patch without signs or with old signs and parking and going into te woods. Many who do bother to ask don't approach the landowner till a week or so before the season. Then they don't bother to stop by and thank the landowner or offer some of their game. I do all those things and have plenty of places to hunt in return. I often even have landowners recomend me to their neighbors.

As for the ANF, what part are you hunting? My camp is on the border near Tionesta and our gang still has very good successs there. I will say that we have had to move around a bit in recent years but we still see deer in decent numbers there.

Please invite me to your place to hunt ! I've spent many hours in Greene and Washington counties tring to get permission,and for the most part have been shot down immediately.Ask permisiion there and the first question they ask is "where you from" ? At that point you have two choice,lie to them or tell the truth.Go ahead and tell them you're from Pittsburgh or anywhere near Pittsburgh and you'll get run off faster than a dog on a pork chop.As far as spending time,unfortunately there are only so many hours in a day and with things the way they are today,one has to work to eat and work as much ashe has to to survive.So the majority of us "part time hunters" end up having to pay to hunt or just put up with ever we have to deal with to spend some time in the woods.

"Actually, RSB, Gary Alt predicted a noticeable decline in antlered harvest for ONLY ONE YEAR!...."

Yeah... He also said the ONE year of record allocation was a one time deal to make room for the bucks saved.It dropped insignificantly the following year only to have it HIGHER THAN EVER AND ANOTHER RECORD HIGH ALLOCATION the following year!