A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

During gun season, my friends and I were discussing the results of the changes PA has made to the regs...antler restrictions and doe tags came up.

So what's the deal? Have the results been positive or negative? Are the total numbers up or down over the last few years? Are bigger bucks starting to be more commonplace because of the newer antler restrictions? Are "too many" does being taken and causing the herd numbers to suffer?

I no longer hunt PA, but I'm curious to hear what others say and think.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

As far as regarding does, depends on what area of the state you are refering to as to wether or not the numbers are up or down. As far as antler restrictions, there is no doubt in my mind that antler size and increasing age of bucks are occuring. Anyone telling you differently doesn't have a clue. One needs only to go to local taxidermist shops to hear them say they have never seen it so good.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

From the looks of the board, this season........I'd say PA was doing SOMETHING right;)

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

I would say the bucks are looking better! The doe situation varys upon where your at in the state and if you got private land to hunt!

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Yea what they said.

The biggest thing I've had people argue is whether the herd needed lowering. I'm on the side of, yes it needed lowering, but more land needs timbered too.

As far as AR's BEST thing to ever happen. They should be 4 pts statewide and those guys would really see nice bucks.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

This wasa frustrating archeryseason for me and not for the reasons you might think.;)The frustration came from seeing so many shooters and not being able to capitalize on it !!!! I know -I know, poor me :D. I hope to remedy that as I just took offthis Thursday and Friday and with the chance of some snow on the ground Thursday. YESSSSSS the antler restriction work.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

I'm going to have to say that I'm not really sure how the herd is statewide. I do know that I live in an area with a lot of hunters and not much public land. In these areas there just aren't many deer. On the private land that's another thing. A good many deer but you can't hunt it. Then these property owners complain to the PGC that the deer are destroying their gardens, shrubbery, etc.
My friend and I hunted about 10 days in archery season and so far, 4 days in rifle season on public land and saw a total of6 deer (4 archery and 2 rifle). Of these,4 were doe and2 were a non-legal buck. We covered a lot of ground and made pushes for each other in areas where we normally saw deer in the past. We even tried areas we never tried before, like small brush clumps in fields that were big enough to hide a deer, just hoping we could see something worth shooting.
We'll keep plugging along. We got a week left and late ML season.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

The antler restrictions are working great! I now see so many bucks with age and size. I live in Beaver County and around here i still see a ton of doe as well as all the good bucks i have been talking about. BUT i do have a camp in WMU 2F (in Forest county) and though i am seing bigger bucks there now when we do even see deer. but we sat all day for 3 days the last 2 years and only seen about 10 deer both years combined. I think up there they have to cut back a little bit on the doe hunting up there. Now i understand that some people complain about how "they used to see 50 or 60 deer in one herd at a time and now the killed all the deer, have to quit hunting doe all together for a few years now and its all for insurance money bla bla bla" but those are them same people that dont understand that seing 49 doe and a spike all the time is not good. there were way to many doe and the bucks were not maturing to breed. Though now it seems they may have taken to many doe up there. I dont think they should stop doe hunting up there all together but they have to change something.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

AR's are working great the herd reduction is a mess. In areas where hunters have unlimited access they have reduced the herd to a pittance. In areas where there is limited access they have plenty of deer as the deer have sanctuaries.Limited access has packed hunters on to available land causing crowds that no one wants to see.

Like every thing the government tries the one size fits all method of deer management has done little more than pit hunters against hunters and land owners against the concrete dwellers in the end we all have lost.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Vermont went the same way as Pa with AR a couple of years ago and it shows with the buck results. Previously the amount of yearling bucks taken was between 60 and 80 percent of the total kill. Now 2 1/2 year old bucks are coming into the check stations in greater numbers than I have seen in years. I hope we start to get more holdover mature deer in the next couple of years.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Me, personally, I would like to see them go back to three days for does. I know in some areas there are alot of deer but up here in warren county there arent as many deer as there used to be. I like the AR's and would like it even better when I get a buck....lol

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

I hunt in Bradford county on private land.My friend who owns the property stopped shooting does 3 years ago and were finally starting to see deer in greater numbers again.Not the numbers that we used to see in the 80s and 90s but enough to see the herd coming back.I find it funny that all the guys i hear complaining of not seeing deer around where i hunt are the same ones that were walking around with 3 doe tags in there pocket when the PGC was passing them out like candy in our area.As far as seeing nicer bucks since ARs.All were doing is shooting them as 2 and a half year old 8 points instead of year and a half year old 4 points.There are some that make it past 2 1/2 but they are far and few between.Just my 2 cents/

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

The antler restrictions have made the bucks better. Period.

The overall herd reduction hasn't worked perfectly and it's been controversial but there's been more positive results than negative

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Statewide I'm sure deer numbers are down. Just like one guy on here said, people bought doe tags like lottery tickets and now complain that there's no deer where they hunt. As for AR I've always thought they should have it and I enjoy it but I'm just off of the one guy on here and I wish they would go 3 points state wide. I've had some huge buck in the past 3 seasons that didn't have that 4th point or brow tine and those deer will live to be old bruisers that nobody can shoot (legally) yet that 2 1/2 yr. old basket rack will be dropped on the spot. Just my thought.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

So now it seems 2 1/2 year olds are being shot over the 1 1/2 year olds that used to get shot. So what is the difference in the scheme of things?? In reality nothing. Horn hunters now just have a little bigger rack to brag with, while the herd itself doesn't benefit at all. Whether a buck breeds with a doe at 1 1/2 years of age or 3 1/2 years of age the genetic makeup it passes is the same. AR's are put in place simply to try to make trophy hunters happy. As far as a management tool, it doesn't make one bit of difference since a states goal is to reduce deer numbers and they could care less how many points the bucks antlers have when it gets shot by a hunter. Of course they will try to justify it by some biological theories just so they don't have to admit that they are only doing it to keep the horn hunters happy. That surely wouldn't look good to the non-hunters who are looking in on all this.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

In my neck of the woods the deer are far and few between.. I like the ar .. the buck i see are bigger 2.5 every once and a while you see a 3.5 or4.5 ... but the does are really hurting where i hunt ...i feel that the only way to manage the deer is with check stations and that way you can see what they are killing ....if i shoot a deer that fine but if not i don't mind it..but they claim that the less deer the bigger the buck which the one place i hunt they shoot everything and ever year they get a few big ones out of there...i think that people can;t relie on the pgc to manage the deer..they will give all kinda tags away and guys buy them all up and then b#tch about the no deer...and now with the herd down here anyways and we get that ehd and lose 200,000 deer then what??? even fewer deer ... just what i think

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

I hunt in 4c on public land. I hunted for 14 days(archery and rifle)and sat in about 6 different stands in previous great cover. I saw 7 deer in total. Still looking for a rub. 2 Doe. The land is public and is around 15000 acres. The farmers came in 3-4 years ago with pockets full of tags and shot dozens of deer every opener. Same stands I always saw at least 10 deer a day in archery.

I agree with the herd reduction, but the public land brown it goes down is hitting the public land hard. I probably talked to 25 hunters the 4rd evening of rifle season and I bet 20 didn't see 1 deer. We may have gone a little far.

My opinion. Allocate the doe tags to public/private land. I live in an area where it is all private and I bet 18 out of 20 days while driving to work I see deer.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

BTW I bought doe tags and bonus tags over the past 5 years just to keep them away from the slaughter.

No Doe hunting for me on public land. I am afraid I might shoot the last one.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

AR is a joke http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/v...5&q=151987

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

There hasnt been a PGC official scoring session since the AR's came in. I beleive budget problems are cited as the reason.

The PGC would do well to get off the few dollars it would take to have another scoring session

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Their budget woe's are as big a joke as their latest journey into scientific ways to piss money away. And what you askmight their latest voyage into where & how to pissmore moneyaway now is our in depth study of the all so misunderstood " Woods Rat" thats right the agency that can;t afford to pay attention is now concerned about the habits and life styles of the all so wary "Woods Rat"
Your hunting dollars at work.[:'(]

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

BTBowhunter - Your saying that the PGC's deer management has more positive aspects than negative. Can you please elaborate? My grandson can't wait to go hunting with me but if things keep going the way they are now, he is going to get discouraged real fast from not seeing any deer.
I've heard that the PGC has stated that they may have errored in their program. IMO they should go back to the one deer and done for a while. Give the hunter the option of harvesting either one buck or one doe. And in areas with a lot of public land with numerous deer, develop a landowner co-op system where the landowner get a monitary refund for each deer taken by legally licensed hunters. You could have a 'landowner coupon' attached to your license and if you harvest an animal on his property, give the coupon to the landowner. Then at the end of the season, he can send them in to the PGC for refund. They do this out west and it seems to be working.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Here's a few thoughts on the benefits of the program. Some is fact and some is opinion.The opinion part seems to be shared by the majority of hunters that I know....

1 We no longer mow down every male deer the minute he sprout 3 inches of bone from his head. Will we ever produce the trophies that the midwest does? Not with almost a million hunters. Are the antler restrictions the best way to manage for quality bucks? No, not with the numbers of hunters we have but it is better than what we had. The average age of our harvested bucks is older than it has ever been (at least since records have been kept)

2 Our doe population is down in many areas where it needed to go way down. Is that unpopular in some areas? yes it is. Is it a fact that there are vast areas of this state that have graduated to the pole timber stage and that the pole timber nowconsists of tree species thatare less than ideal for wildlife habitat.Those areas arenot going to support the deer numbers we got used to for a very long time. The doe mortality study in one of those areas showed that only 8-15% of adult doe mortalitycame from hunters so it's not just about doe tags or the concurrent season.
The good news is that there are still many areas with high populations and hunters who are willing to adapt are still doing well.

3 This one is strictly from personal observation and may or may not represent the whole state. IMHO, the gun season has evolved into a less rushed situation. It used to be that your chances went way down after opening day because the deer were bouncing aronud the woods like pinballs and anything legal had a pretty lousy chance of survival. Now, hunters have to look at the head harder and make sure it's either a legal doe or a legal buck. My experience has been that the shooting is way less on opening day but the HUNTING stays good all season for those who get out and match wits with the deer. This has been unpopular with the crowd of "Monday morning stump sitters" but has made it better for the hunter who enjoys more than a one day hunt.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

That's why I started a new post about AR. ( everyone should take the time to read it)I have been doing a lot of research on this management tool.A couple of states that started before Pa. have noticeda decline now in antler growth. But there is also two main factors that play into Pa., hunting pressure, and NOT poor habitat, but poor soil conditions, this is why you have poor habitat, regardless of deer density! Hunters who have been complaining about no deer or small bucks. This is easy math, if the bucks are being taken soon as they have the legal point requirements, well,this is what you are going to get. Small to average size antlers.Also, if the area is being totally pounded in female harvests, this leaves very little to reseed. Low deer numbers. I also have a degree in biology and horticulture, but I will make this simple. I take it, at least a few of you fellow hunters plant a garden? Well, what do you do every year before you plant?, you prep the soil! If you don't, I think you know what is going to happen, anemic looking plants, the fruits small and low in vitamin and nutrition value. Back to the woods! Now, where the deer numbers have been kept low, you should see a forest floor regrowth happening, but! In poor soil conditions, the type of regrowth you get in poor soil conditions is worth crap as for nutrition value for deer. This will lead to low deer numbers even without heavy harvests. Poor food, not as healthy deer, poor reproduction! My point here is, AR and low deer numbers are not going to fix this type of area,it is going to takeburning, liming or clear cutting to help these areas. There is also areas from my experience that has good nutrition value habitat, but the deer density is down from over harvest. These can and should support more deer.Also Quality Deer Management is NOT or should be, a trophy tool. It is keeping numbers in line with the habitat. Summary: some area's are in good shape(deer density's) mostly private property. Some area's low(deer density's) could hold more, most public grounds. Some area's are in need ofupgrading the soil value, before we manage the deer. Last but not least," don't assume", just because a hunter is not seeing deer, he needs to improve his skills. The problem may be one of the other reasons! We need all the hunters we can get, from novice to expert. We also need to retool our deer management program,and it won't be easy.[/align]

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

I think keeping deer numbers in line with habitat has absolutely nothing to do with how many points a buck has when he gets shot by a hunter. That is the big misconception here, but the trophy hunters try to link the two together. A states goal is to try to keep the herds in check with the habitat. The age structure of the males has NO significance in all this. The AR part in all this is ONLY put in place to pacify hunters who want to kill deer with larger antlers than before AR rules. All the other attempts to link AR rules with good management of a states deer herd is a bunch of lies.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

I'll respond by saying that liming is both impracticle and unnessesary.Studies have been done and liming did absolutely nothing for oak regeneration.It did help red maple and bracken ferns but they're both species that we don't want to continue to take over.I'd be curious to see how a broadscale liming operation would take place and who would pay for it.Burning is a gret idea and would help but there's huge liability exposures associated with it,making it impracticle to do in Pa.

Still,it wouldn't hurt to lime burn and fertilize if it were practicle and affordable.However,there's no way to do it to the whole state.It's also not correct to assume that's the problem with our regeneration.I can take anyone and show them dozens and dozens of exclosures that have phenominal regeneration.The rainfall and soil are the same as what's outside the fences.The only differance is,deer have been removed from the equation.Hunters have to face the fact that we had way too many deer for way too long in many areas of Pa and nowwe have to pay the price with less deer.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Overall I think the plan is working. The AR's are definately working. The number of deer are down overall which is what they wanted.The deer I do see are healthier looking.Not seeing as many road kills,ect.I still feel that proper timber management is lacking though. If we could get more harvesting of mature timber we would get this process worked out a little faster.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Pabuck hntr,One of the rasons we're in the mess we're in is because the entire nothern section was logged in a short period of time during the early 1900's.We're now faced with an even aged stand of timber and the remedy is to cut 1% a year.If they cut more than that,things will be good for a while and them when it turns into pole timber,we'll be in the same mess again.While keepinga certain percentage of the forests in the seedling sapling stage is important,massive amounts of timbering is a short term solution to a long term problem.

bawanajim,You'll have to elaborate on how the PGC wastes money.they're one of the most heavily autited agencies out there.The did do a study on the wood rat,which they're mandated to manage.The PGCis responsible to mange all wildlife,not just deer.It's also not true that hunter's dollars pay for all of this.Most of these studies are funded by grant's from outside sources.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Sorry DougE, I never assume! But I did not specify that maybe, that some area's may have poor soil conditions. But I can say it is just one of the factors in my area. And I should specify, these are pockets of poor soil condition in relative comparison to the size of the whole county. But they do exist, I can show you!

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

I saw an entry from 2004 and 2005 in the typical category. How'd that happen?

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

I have to agree with the pole timber issue somewhat. We have a camp in Clinton county. They did a clear cut on the tops of 2 mtns about 20 years ago. The deer in there were numerous after the cutting.Now its so thick you can't get in there to hunt. I'm sure the deer are in there but impossible to hunt. The other mtns in the area are steep with mature timber. Logging these mountain sides would be next to impossible. The deer on these mtns are far an few between.
I hunt deer in north'd co. This area was logged off about 15 years ago. Its thick but huntable. After this last snowfall my friend and I split up and walked about 3 miles each and neither one of us ever cut a track let alone seen a deer. We went through known bedding areas, saddles, draws, everywhere we could think a deer might hide. Its frustrating

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

so basically those of you hunting state forestland for deer would be better off moving on.It's not going to get better anytime soon.You might find some decent hunting on sgl's in less populated areas of the state but I would suggest finding private land where acess is limited.I know it's not easy to find but a few friends and myself were lucky to gain some access to areas withgood deer numbers.
There's public land north and south with very few deer.Whether the reason is overharvests or habitat it's just not going to change.good-luck

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

I think you hit the nail on the head! I think hunting on public land everywhere in the US will be declining rapidly in the near future with more and more hunters being pushed off private land. The public land will be getting more hunters which will result in less game on it. Only those lucky enough to own land or have friends who let them hunt will have private land to hunt. All other private land for hunting will be going to the highest bidders. Hunting as we once knew it in this country will be gone.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

How much does hunting ground cost in off-the-beaten path parts of PA?

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Mohuncher,this is a pretty complicated issue and you're 100% correct that poor soil conditions are the cause of the regeneration issues in some areas.I won't debate that but there's reams and reams of evidence that points to overabundant deer as the major cause in most areas.

DCNR has several experimental exclosuresand unfenced areas where they're doing research for the US forest service.Some have no treatments,some were burned,some were herbicided and some had a combination of all three.The results are amazing and everytime the regeneration is far better in the areas where the deer are fenced out.Now that the herd has been reduced in this area,they're finally able to cut some timber sales without having to fence them and new reneration is making it's way out of the blanket of ferns.I can show you an area that was clearcut in 1991(with the exception of several seed trees left)on SGL in Elk county.that clearcut turned into a field because the deer ate every bit of regeneration.Six years after it was cut,they erected several small exclosure.Today,you can't even walk through those exclosure and nothing was planted or treated in any way.Pretty impressive considering that clearcut was fenced 6 years after it was cut.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

In Bradford county where i hunt property usually goes for $2000.00 to $3500 per acre.I could remember when it went for $500.00 an acre and we thought that was a lot of money.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Oh Dougie, I'm not debating you either! My bias opinion here was given when a fellow hunter complained about not seeing any deer at all. Then how other hunters first want to assume it because of his or her hunting skills. I stated what I have noticed in the area's that I hunt, and these "could or could not" be some of the reasons for their area's. That there may be a problem other than ones hunting desire or skills. I only hunt in one county, and probably covered little more half than of it over the past seven years.And for me to lay claim as to what is going on in another part of this state that I had never seen nor hunted in, would be very ignorant and presumptuous![/align]

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Actaullay I believe you tried to claim that poor habitat wasn't an issue,it was poor soil conditions.You even underlined that to make your point.I then pointed out to you that while poor soil conditions may be a factor in certain areas,that certainly isn't indicative of most areas and there is more than enough proof to show that.You then resorted to childish games and started calling me names.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

DougE, where did I start resorting to childish games and started calling you names? The underlined qoutes were to clarify statements that I made. And if you are referring to as Dougie as name calling, it was ment as if you and I where standing face to face, I reached my hand out to shake your hand, with a (kidding oh Dougie) I'm not debating you either.
I hope you can except this?, if not, I guess that is fine too.
Because I'm done on this subject.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

I'll accept that.It's tough to judge emotions over the internet.