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RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
There are good biological reasons for AR and increased doe harvest: 1. It improves the buck / doe ratio. 2. This will concentrate the breeding season, and reduce the incidence of late fawns. 3. It will reduce stress on the does. If they get bred 1st time in heat, then they can settle in for winter, not have second estrous, have fawn at normal time, have full growing season for fawn to nurse and wean. 4. Only the older, higher quality "survivor" bucks will breed. This will increase the genetic quality of the herd. 5. With the improved buck / doe ratio and breeding competition, the yearling bucks won't breed hardly at all, won't exhaust themselves, and will be more likely to survive healthier. 6. Reduced deer populations will allow damaged habitat to recover. OK, so who came up with these AR/QDM theories anyway? Was it some unbiased biologists who had absolutely NO interest in trophy hunting or wasn't financed by trophy hunters? Exactly what difference does it make in controlling deer numbers (which is the states primary responsibility with a deer hunting season) in how big a bucks rack happens to be when it gets shot by a hunter? Other than giving a hunter a bigger rack to show off, it makes absolutely NO difference in the scheme of things. What makes you think only "older, higher quality bucks" will do the breeding? So what if that yearling buck might breed a doe? Doesn't a buck have the same genetic makeup at 1 1/2 as he does at 3 1/2? All the points you make can be refuted, but it needs to be looked at with an open mind. These theories serve the trophy hunter mindset way MORE than it will ever serve the deer in the various habitats they live in. |
RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
1) Name me 2 good biological reasons for whiping out a herd??????????????????????? 2) show me biological fact that states that "only the older high quality survivor bucks will breed" ? Charles alsheimer himself states that it's impossible for only "good" bucks to breed,,,i've seen it myself when two big bucks will be sparring and chasin each other off only to have a small spike buck come in and breed the doe!!!!!!!! 3) and last but not least show mw where in the hunting world has AR and Hr produced a better herd based on the fact that you are improving habitat,,,i dont care how much browse you give a deer it will not improve their antler growth and genetic layout,,,seasonal foodplots,,,minerals,,,and protein by product are whats gonna stimulate antler growth and produce better genes |
RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
1.The herd has not been wiped out.Unfortunately,in some cases it had to be greatly reduced to give the habitat a chance to recover.
2.Bucks in all age classes will breed. 3.Are you serious.The health of the herd is totaly dependent on the state of the habitat.Better habitat will prodice bigger more healthy deer and much better fawn recruitment rates.More high quality browse will most certainly invrease both boody weight and antlergrowth. 4.Protein has nothing to do with genetics. |
RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
The herd has not been wiped out.Unfortunately
Nowthose words sounds like they came out of the mouth of the DCNRor theAudubon. [:@] |
RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
ORIGINAL: DougE 1.The herd has not been wiped out.Unfortunately,in some cases it had to be greatly reduced to give the habitat a chance to recover. 2.Bucks in all age classes will breed. 3.Are you serious.The health of the herd is totaly dependent on the state of the habitat.Better habitat will prodice bigger more healthy deer and much better fawn recruitment rates.More high quality browse will most certainly invrease both boody weight and antlergrowth. 4.Protein has nothing to do with genetics. According to adog breeder I spoke with, breeding just wipes a stud out for a few days. I wonder if that's true with deer. If so, it would be better to have more bucks around to do the breeding, rather than one buckper ~10 does. |
RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
ORIGINAL: waiting_for_a_gift 4. Only the older, higher quality "survivor" bucks will breed. This will increase the genetic quality of the herd. Also, since young bucksare protected,theydont necessarily have to be "survivors" to live to older ages. |
RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
overall statewide the racks being brought in are bigger.
As for herd reduction it all depends on the area you are hunting.Some public lands with unlimited access have been overharvested and some places with enough limited access the deer numbers are still in good shape. |
RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
ORIGINAL: lost horn The herd has not been wiped out.Unfortunately Nowthose words sounds like they came out of the mouth of the DCNRor theAudubon. [:@] |
RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
I'm voting for obama.A dude with the same name as the nutbag that masterminded 9/11.
Yeah right |
RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
here in WMU2G of pa.
i have hunted the following counties for 50 years,sou potter,clinton,cameron,sou lycoming,centre.. first,AR we felt is great thing,we did not like the part that kids could shoot little bucks as we felt the adults would shoot the bucks and have kids tag it.. is this being done,YES.it should be 3 points or 4 for ALL. now for HR,it went to far in most of those counties above. last year you could get 2 DOE TAGS and 6 DMAP TAGS HERE IN CLINTON ALONE..thats 8 doe tags.. this year,1doe tag AND 3 DMAP TAGS,thats 4 doe each.. thats just crazy and is reason that doe/fawns are very scare. it used to be that we would sit around camp and talk about buck that got away, you know what MOST of hunters talk about now,I GOT A BIG SUPPLY OF DEER BOLONA IN FRIG.. we are losing sportsman now,i see some still but are giving up hunting and ones i see left, not all but a lot are only interested in filling all those doe tags and bragging about DEER JERKY.. i heard guy talk about all grouse he got last year and all MEAT,he rides roads in 3 counties.. i said you could have bought 90 store bought turkeys for all gas you spent riding around.. this is THINKING of most of hunters i am seeing now,they will shoot every grouse/rabbit/doe/fawn/turkey that they have license to fill. sportsman are still out there but OUR numbers are dropping and we are losing battle to protect our DOE/FAWNS so we have huntable numbers of deer .. how the PGC can say there is over population of deer in places like WMU2G,when you have MILES of land with NO DEER.. from my reports this year many hunters saw NO DEER,1 deer or 2 deer for 2 weeks of hunting. some nice bucks were killed but most said they saw NO FAWNS and ones they did see were layingin the truck bed. how someone can kill FAWN when there are very few deer left is beyond reasoning, it all comes back to,FILL THAT TAG FOR THAT DEER JERKY.. this is NEW hunter now.......... |
RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
it used to be that we would sit around camp and talk about buck that got away, you know what MOST of hunters talk about now,I GOT A BIG SUPPLY OF DEER BOLONA IN FRIG.. OK Sproul,Let me get this straight. MOST hunters talk about the big supply of deer meat thay got......GOT IT! But wait, whats this? from my reports this year many hunters saw NO DEER,1 deer or 2 deer for 2 weeks of hunting. some nice bucks were killed but most said they saw NO FAWNS and ones they did see were layingin the truck bed. One of us is VERY CONFUSED here and it aint me! |
RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
ORIGINAL: DougE 1.The herd has not been wiped out.Unfortunately,in some cases it had to be greatly reduced to give the habitat a chance to recover. 2.Bucks in all age classes will breed. 3.Are you serious.The health of the herd is totaly dependent on the state of the habitat.Better habitat will prodice bigger more healthy deer and much better fawn recruitment rates.More high quality browse will most certainly invrease both boody weight and antlergrowth. 4.Protein has nothing to do with genetics. if the DCNR does not cut trees,forest will not RECOVER as you say. no new growth is going to happen under that CANOPY OF MAPLES.trees DONT grow in shade................ you know this,DCNR is out to grow trees not to grow browse for deer. they could care less if we have 1 deer left.. hunting will do nothing but get worst here in WMU2G. reason we had deer years ago was not due to PERFECTHABITAT ,it was because DOE permits were less and only 3 days of doe. also hunters DID NOT kill off all their doe in area they hunted, they MANAGED their doe themselves.. now, you will come back and say,WELL SPROULE,THATS WHY FOREST IS IN SHAPE ITS IN.. well, i got answer to that, forest is in shape its in because the DCNR will not cut trees to let in the SUN so young trees can grow . yet,DCNR says deer are eating trees, deer cant eat something that never had chance to grow anyhow. we all want GREAT habitat for deer,at least i think most of us do other than DCNR. i had forester tell me that trees are NOT OLD ENOUGH to cut down for wood,said they need another 50 to 75 years.. so, if state of pa is going to MANAGE timber ,then deer are going to take a hit . just look at programs to better the HABITAT for deer,the DCNR is getting involved in pa wilds,all their time is going for TRAILS,ROADS,TOURS, HISTORICAL THINGS,HIKING, CANOEING,4 WHEELING, SNOWMOBILING ETC. where is the PLAN to improve the forest to make huge improvements in DEER BROWSE.. there is no PLAN.. its GROWING trees,that is MISSION now,not improving deer .. |
RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
ORIGINAL: BTBowhunter it used to be that we would sit around camp and talk about buck that got away, you know what MOST of hunters talk about now,I GOT A BIG SUPPLY OF DEER BOLONA IN FRIG.. OK Sproul,Let me get this straight. MOST hunters talk about the big supply of deer meat thay got......GOT IT! But wait, whats this? from my reports this year many hunters saw NO DEER,1 deer or 2 deer for 2 weeks of hunting. some nice bucks were killed but most said they saw NO FAWNS and ones they did see were layingin the truck bed. One of us is VERY CONFUSED here and it aint me! up until THIS year you heard that FILL THE FREEZER comments ,this year i have not heard it as much. 1 camp had 15 hunters,other had 17for 1 st week and got 1 doe here in clinton county. this same camp a few years ago MADE THAT STATEMENT to me,I GOT A FREEZER FULL OF MEAT. i heard it today at wal -mart todaybut that group hunts on PRIVATELAND... also being we have 2 weeks of doe and early doe season,hunters are getting 3 weeks to FILL THAT FREEZER. that does not mean there are LOTS of doe here in WMU2G. it means they are getting more time and more counties to go to FILL THE FREEZER.. i have friends that drive keating mtn,they cleaned every deer off the side hills there. guess where they are FILLING FREEZER NOW? not in WMU2G,they are going to PITTSBURGH AREA. keep coming after me, i know i am getting to you with TRUTH,you are backer of the DEER ERADICATION PROGRAM,most likely youhave interest in seeing deer gone or to convince people they are here so you can BENEFIT in some way. want to come clean on your MOTIVES?[:-] |
RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
ORIGINAL: sproulman ORIGINAL: BTBowhunter it used to be that we would sit around camp and talk about buck that got away, you know what MOST of hunters talk about now,I GOT A BIG SUPPLY OF DEER BOLONA IN FRIG.. OK Sproul,Let me get this straight. MOST hunters talk about the big supply of deer meat thay got......GOT IT! But wait, whats this? from my reports this year many hunters saw NO DEER,1 deer or 2 deer for 2 weeks of hunting. some nice bucks were killed but most said they saw NO FAWNS and ones they did see were layingin the truck bed. One of us is VERY CONFUSED here and it aint me! up until THIS year you heard that FILL THE FREEZER comments ,this year i have not heard it as much. 1 camp had 15 hunters,other had 17for 1 st week and got 1 doe here in clinton county. this same camp a few years ago MADE THAT STATEMENT to me,I GOT A FREEZER FULL OF MEAT. i heard it today at wal -mart todaybut that group hunts on PRIVATELAND... also being we have 2 weeks of doe and early doe season,hunters are getting 3 weeks to FILL THAT FREEZER. that does not mean there are LOTS of doe here in WMU2G. it means they are getting more time and more counties to go to FILL THE FREEZER.. i have friends that drive keating mtn,they cleaned every deer off the side hills there. guess where they are FILLING FREEZER NOW? not in WMU2G,they are going to PITTSBURGH AREA. keep coming after me, i know i am getting to you with TRUTH,you are backer of the DEER ERADICATION PROGRAM,most likely youhave interest in seeing deer gone or to convince people they are here so you can BENEFIT in some way. want to come clean on your MOTIVES?[:-]  Sorry, no time to explain my motives right now. Got two truckloads of coyotes and a dozen cougars arriving today. It's gonna take most of the day to get them all releasedacross 2G and 2F. Those insurance companies sure do pay well for the work. ;) |
RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
Sproul's buddies are heading to Pittsburgh now.Last year they were headed to Rockton mountain.
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RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
I love how random people from across the state are able to go to a place with such little open land and find a place to hunt, yet everyone who lives down here struggles to have just one little place they can hunt.
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RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
keep that truck of yotes out there BT.We don't want them.:D
sproul,don't bother coming to rockton mountain.Only thing there is a 600 pound bear and lost dog. Unless BT let that truckload of yotes loose up there.Then the dog aint lost he's dead.:D |
RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
ORIGINAL: germain keep that truck of yotes out there BT.We don't want them.:D sproul,don't bother coming to rockton mountain.Only thing there is a 600 pound bear and lost dog. Unless BT let that truckload of yotes loose up there.Then the dog aint lost he's dead.:D Got a load of wolves coming next month. |
RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
That's mighty nice of you BT but I was hoping you'd throw in a big foot or two.:D
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RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
yea .yea .....and we sit over here with not a sign of lions, tigers or bears oh my.;)
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RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
No yotes stocked there this trip. Thats where we dumped the cougars! Got a load of wolves coming next month. We don't need any more of those in Cameron Co. we have plenty, but if you can spare a few deer that would be great. :D |
RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
Cameron county is an awesome place.I was supposed to hunt bear up there on the first daybut ended up having to work.As it turns out they hammered them that afternoon and didn't leave any for me the next day.I hunted in Grove twp on the last day of deer season and saw probably the biggest buck I've ever had my cross hairs on.I almost always see coyote tracks up there but didn't see a single one this year.
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RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
ORIGINAL: DougE Cameron county is an awesome place.I was supposed to hunt bear up there on the first daybut ended up having to work.As it turns out they hammered them that afternoon and didn't leave any for me the next day.I hunted in Grove twp on the last day of deer season and saw probably the biggest buck I've ever had my cross hairs on.I almost always see coyote tracks up there but didn't see a single one this year. |
RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
ORIGINAL: lost horn ORIGINAL: DougE Cameron county is an awesome place.I was supposed to hunt bear up there on the first daybut ended up having to work.As it turns out they hammered them that afternoon and didn't leave any for me the next day.I hunted in Grove twp on the last day of deer season and saw probably the biggest buck I've ever had my cross hairs on.I almost always see coyote tracks up there but didn't see a single one this year. |
RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
Idont know what you dont understand.. up until THIS year you heard that FILL THE FREEZER comments ,this year i have not heard it as much. 1 camp had 15 hunters,other had 17for 1 st week and got 1 doe here in clinton county. this same camp a few years ago MADE THAT STATEMENT to me,I GOT A FREEZER FULL OF MEAT. i heard it today at wal -mart todaybut that group hunts on PRIVATELAND... also being we have 2 weeks of doe and early doe season,hunters are getting 3 weeks to FILL THAT FREEZER. that does not mean there are LOTS of doe here in WMU2G. it means they are getting more time and more counties to go to FILL THE FREEZER.. i have friends that drive keating mtn,they cleaned every deer off the side hills there. guess where they are FILLING FREEZER NOW? not in WMU2G,they are going to PITTSBURGH AREA. keep coming after me, i know i am getting to you with TRUTH,you are backer of the DEER ERADICATION PROGRAM,most likely youhave interest in seeing deer gone or to convince people they are here so you can BENEFIT in some way. want to come clean on your MOTIVES?[:-] [/quote] AMEN brother! Now you are starting to sound just like me. What did I say? When they clean one place out - with the management area so big - all they have to do is go down the road. There are lot's of deer around Pittsburgh and they aren't even afraid of hunters. The hard part is places like Potter County that depended on the hunters coming two weeks out of the year to their camps and drinking in the bars and eating in the restaraunts and buying hunting and camping supplies at the stores - not having that extra income anymore. There is going to be lot's of green Christmas tree's this year up there. Lot's of kids not getting nice presents like the kids in Pittsburgh and lot's of family's doing without next year. All because the deer are gone and the hunters are gone and the camps are closed up. |
RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
ORIGINAL: lost horn ORIGINAL: DougE Cameron county is an awesome place.I was supposed to hunt bear up there on the first daybut ended up having to work.As it turns out they hammered them that afternoon and didn't leave any for me the next day.I hunted in Grove twp on the last day of deer season and saw probably the biggest buck I've ever had my cross hairs on.I almost always see coyote tracks up there but didn't see a single one this year. last year i only saw 1 in area i hunt,or 2.. we trapped out 1. just today i was in my hunting area after grouse . i could not believe what i saw, i saw 3 coyote tracks running together and 1 other was flanking those other 3. 1 set was HUGE .i would say that coyote went 45 pds easy. other 3 looked smaller. most i ever saw running together was 2 ,mostly 1. i am contacting my friends to see if they can trap this year there. we all need to take up trapping with new snares you can use in snow, if not these coyotes are going to do number on deer. i was shocked at size od that footprint, thats a huge coyote. |
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