RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

This horse has been beaten so severly that you could cook it on the grill for 6 hours and still cut it with a spoonBut,,,i'll once again entertain it! I can not find anywhere and i mean anywhere where theres proof (pics would be a start) that the AR's are working?????????? Yes,,we see a few more 6's and 8's than we used to see,,,saw a couple 10's on here posted,,,but for christ sake look at the racks,,,i aint seen a one that was a so-called trophy outside the ears 20"+ with great mass like ya see being shot all over the US on television! what could be the main reason for this????? im suggesting to you that it is poor diet,,,these deer are not going to get BIG without being pumped full of protein,,,and i dont care if you allow em to live 8+yrs,,without the proper nutrition it aint gonna work! In my opinion the deer are being managed statewide,,,no way can that work,,no way! Things need to go back the way they were 10 yrs ago,,property owners need to manage their land the way they feel fit,,and the doe tags need to be over the counter bonus tags,,,if you need to shoot more does,,,go buy more tags at the local wal-mart,,,if you shoot too many deer on your property and theres a herd reduction problem,,,look in the mirror and say I have no one to blame but myself!!!!!!!!! Special rules for state game lands are fine,,i have no problem with that,,,but as a property owner and deer hunter,,,let me be the judge

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Whover said Pa. was manging deer for trophy antlers?Ar was designed to get more bucks to survive to the second age class.Nothing more,nothing less.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

How can you forget the big rack that Dr. Alt waived around at some of his meetings. Or maybe you didn't go to any of the meetings. :eek:

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Thank you!

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Very good point, As I recall we were trading numbers for quality now we have neither.:eek:


But I hear said it was a banner year for cucumber roots.[:-]

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

DougE:
If pa. is not managing bucks for an overall outcome of rack size,,,,then why bother??? and dont even try to tell me that their doin it for the overall better health of the herd! The fact of the matter is the herd is whiped out and hunters need to take a stand and do something about it on their own. I care about my land and the habitat on it in Pa. so in turn i refuse to hunt it until things change,,my family has finally seen the results of their "well the PGC told me to do it attitudes" over the past 2 years and there has not been a doe shot,,,we actually saw 11 does the last day of season(family members,,not me) so once again this year,,,we will feed,,maybe do a little burning etc..... to try to better improve the land and what deer are left. too much Bill Jordan watchin on tv has apparently clouded some minds

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

The 2 1/2 year old racks that Gary Alt waved around at the meetings I attended were representative of whats now being harvested. He used a realistic example. Not some gargantuan rack from the midwest.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

rem700,I actually heard Alt speak twice.I saw him wave a 4 1/2 year old rack in the air and explained that without AR,only 1 in 100 bucks ever rwached that age.I also saw the 2/1/2 year old racks that BTbowhunter saw and echo his remarks.I thought Alt was full of hot air about some things but the one thing he hammered home was the need to reduce the herd.I got that loud and clear but apparently,far too mnay people were mezmorized by that big racks and thought it was all about trophy hunting.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

DougE:
I have never heard Alt speak or seen the racks that were in his hands but i know for sure that i killed some pretty impressive bucks for Pa. the years before AR's were introduced (back when doe season was mon-wed the 3rd week) I will also admit that i punched alot of holes in spikes,,,4's,,,and 6's those years as well,,,but what im trying to say is that i never feared for our sport back then,,,Pa. was one of the most well known states in the union for hunting,,,now it's known for a shot out herd,,christ i even watched a debate on television(Bucks of tecomate) about how the Pa. herd was shot out,,,for me that just plain ole SUCKS! I have lived in Va. for the last 23 yrs and you would not believe the guys from Pa. that come down here to hunt now the week of thanksgiving,,,they buy their liscense,,they get 6 deer tags,,a bear and 4 turkey tags on one liscense purchase,,and let me tell ya son,,,they have the chance here to kill bucks unlike anywhere else in the US,,,theres some monsters here!but back to Pa.,,,i was kinda excited the 1st year of AR's thinking that it may help the guy looking to kill a "big" buck,,,maybe im just totally out of touch or whatever,,,but i have seen no proof of this,,,all i have seen is a drastically reduced herd and a buncha hunters that are really dissatisfied with their hunting experience,,,,and that,,,above all will make our sport suffer. and i use the word sport loosely because if i have 100 decisions to make in a days time,,,98 are made with the thought of how can i make this work in hunting season,,,hunting is my way of life!

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

There was allot of talk early on about adjusting this program to fit the different areas of this state.Different needs for different habitats.
So far the only adjustments have been token reductions in doe tags, which has more than made up for with longer seasons a other depredation tags.
The words of hunters continue to fall on deaf ears and support for the PGC continues to decline. Its a lose lose for all involved.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Now here is my two cents.

I hunt most of the time in Jefferson County in 2D

My family traditional hunting spot was in a place called Loleta - which is near Clear Creek / Alleghaney National Forrest - Forrest County. 2F

My family - dad, uncle, grandfathers liked to hunt in a game lands - SGL 31

When I started to hunt - back in 1978, it was nothing to see 50 deer before lunch! We always got bucks and some of them were pretty massive.

Now my family did walk a couple of miles back into the game lands to get to their hunting spot and it did take them 1 1/2 hours to walk back there and twice that long to get one out.

Then the PGC came along and changed the rules and allowed multiple kills in one year. Now it is so bad, I didnt go back there since 1998!

This year, I have a hunting spot that is on a hillside on private property that is not posted. My brother sits 150 yards below me.

We sat in our tree stands from 6 AM to 5 Pm and I only saw 4 deer - all bucks.

My brother saw 4 bucks and one doe.

The second and third day we went to SGL 31 and hunted from 6 Am to 5 Pm and I never saw a deer!

The game comission opened up a road and now there is only a 1/2 hour walk from where we park to where we hunt. Only we are not the only people in there and the other hunters with the multiple tags - that feels that they have to shoot the first deer that comes down the trail - has cleaned out the deer.

My one brother did get a 7 point buck! = But I will guarentee you that it was deaf, dumb and blind - because my brother and my dad were eating lunch under a plastic tarp when they shot it. It rained pretty good all the first day.

That Thursday I went up to Loleta and I saw more deer up there in 2F than I saw any day - but the last day in 2D!

I actually saw a buck - practically every day this season and I hunted all 12 days! I saw several big bucks that were legal - from the road. But I don't hunt that way!

In 100 hours of hunting, I saw about 10 bucks and 5 does in Jefferson County (2d),and another 5 does in 5 hours of hunting in Loleta - Clearcreek - ANF.

Antler restrictions sucks!

I saw some old guys that shot a spike and said that it was legal because they were senior citizens and another group of hunters that shot a spike and said it was legal - because they had a 10 year old kid hunting with them. I never saw the kid!

I met a gentleman that had a new truck and a nice rifle that roadhunted a doe and shot it out the window and never tagged it in Clear Creek. I also saw multiple hunters that shot does out the window and never tagged them.

The last day I was on Posted Property - with Written Permission. I shot a doe at first light and 5 minutes later - 13 trucks came down the road and a bunch of hunters jumped out of their trucks and ran after the deer.
When I asked them if they had permission to be there, none of them had permission. They chased the deer around until about 11 AM and then they left. All 13 trucks at one time. Not one of them trucks was more than 5 years old.

They didn't have a roster - which is required for hunting parties of more than 5 people in Pennsylvania. They didn't have permission, they were tresspassing.
When I went to pick up my relatives, there was a gut pile right next to the road where they shot one out the window and dragged it to the truck. It probably wasn't tagged either.

The only game warden I saw was up near SGL 31 - about the second Wednesday. My dad said they saw 3 PGC trucks in one spot in the game lands the first week one day.

Now how are you going to have any deer when you have all of these shennagains going on out there?

We had 10 tags between 4 of us and two of us was shut out - no deer this year. I got two does and my brother got a buck and two doe's and that's it!

I believe and will abide by the rules - if they go back to one deer per a year, or go back to one buck and one doe per a year. But I do not believe that if they keep going in the direction they have been going in that there will be any significant deer hunting in 10 years if there are no deer left.

There will always be small pockets of deer , on posted land where you cannot hunt them and beside the houses. But as far as going out into the woods and seeing 10 deer in one day - I believe that those days are gone forever as long as the rules, seasons and bag limits stays the way they are right now!

I want to see deer, my family wants to see deer. Little kids wants to see deer. If there are no deer to hunt, there is no reason to go out into the woods and spend $1000 on guns and $1000's of dollars on pick up trucks, and $100's of dollars on hunting gear. $1000's of dollars on a hunting camp - just to see NOTHING!

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

I think it's time the SGL's are managed differently then other land.Too much hunting pressure and in some cases overharvesting.State forest land is another issue.
I know a feller who hunts southern clearfield county.In his area all the landowners are basically managing the deer with all land posted in a huge land mass.They have doe coming out the wazoo but don't shoot them {except for some kids}Having said that almost all of them got nice bucks this year.Only members and families hunt these parcels but the landowners got together and decided to manage this way.In his first day he killed his buck this feller saw over 70 deer.My point?A high pressured SGL should be managed differently then this private land.They're not going to let outsiders on so give them dmaps as they see fit.As private land access is reduced more pressure will be put on the SGL's which might result into some type of lottery system for shooting does and or bucks.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Two of you shoot 5 deer and yet you complain, four doe great job thats really helping the very cause you bemoan. I give up.[:@]

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Loleta is on Millstone creek not Clear Creek. there are definitely less deer than before but the size and health of the deer left are much better.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Jim,I know a guy that shot two doe and will try for a third in ML.That's fine and dandy but he signed the {close doe season} petition sent to the PGC.Go figure

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

You just can't make this stuff up. What the hell their thinking is beyoned me.

Greed and ego's replace common sense every time.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Bawanajim:
well said! ya have to wonder what makes some of these guys tick??????????

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

I killed multiple doe this year and saw plenty in of deer and plenty of sign in every area where I hunted.The one thing I haven't seen for several years now is alot of hunters.What makes me tick is the fact that the vast majority of the habitat where I hunt has been devistated by the huge deer herd we had 10+ years ago.I have no guilt shooting deer in poor habitat or habitat that's finally starting to recover.

rifleman,it's not legalfor seniors to shoot spikes.Did you turn him in or the rest of the roadhunters?I eported a poacher this year and the WCO was on his way as he spoke to me on his cell phone.the case isn't closed yet but in the end,three guys will get nailed for multiple poached deer and multiple other violations.You have to get involved if you want to make a differance.The WCOthat has SGL 31 in his district is a good friend of mine.I'll guarantee you that he would have jumped right on those situations.

I haven't hunted SGL 31 in quite a few deer but I have several buddies that hunt that whole area religously.They did well this year as they always have.There's definately less deer but they still see plenty.My one buddy hunted the first morning near the O'donel bridge and saw 15 by 10:00am.

Ikill multiple deer every year as do most of my hunting buddies but we don't complain about a lack of deer.If we did,we sure wouldn't be killing two a piece.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Doug although I don't agree with anyone shooting multiple does,I agree that we as local hunters are the ones that need make the proper choices in deer management.If you feel the need to shoot a doe either for food or herd management that is up to you.In all the rural areas I've hunted I've seen no where that the deer hear needs more reduction,stabilization maybe reduction no.
BUT what do we as hunters have for credibility when we over kill the very thing we strive to have strive and prosper.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Where do I start,

First off, I know that Loleta is in Millstone Creek. I had to DRIVE through Clear Creek from my home to go to Loleta. The guy that illegally shot the doe there was from Ridgeway -hework's at the Royal Motel at the top of Boot Jack hill!

That's a long way from Ridgeway to Clear creek where we were at.

Second off, O'Donnel Bridge is not in SGL 31, it is in the Renoldsville Game lands. 44 or 54 or something like that. I know because I hunted there many times.

Third off - you need to have someone read you your hunting digest,

WMUs 1 A, IB, 2A, 2B & 2D: Four or more points to one antler. All other WMUs: Three or more points to one antler. Exceptions: In all WMUs, junior license holders, disabled persons permit (to use a vehicle) holders and residents serving on active duty in the U.S. Armed Forces, or in the U.S. Coast Guard, two or more points to one antler, or with one antler three inches or more in length. Senior License holders must abide by antler restrictions.
A Legal Point: An antler projection of at least one inch in length from base to tip, including brow tines. Main beam shall be counted as a point regardless of length.
Antlerless Deer: A deer without antlers, or a deer with antlers both of which are less than three inches in length.
Protected Deer: A deer not defined as an antlered deer or an antlerless deer.
Limit: One legal antlered deer per license year. One antlerless deer with each valid WMU specific antlerless license.
Field Possession Limit: When multiple harvests of deer per day are autho­rized, only one deer at a time may be taken. Before attempting to take an additional deer, the first deer shall be lawfully tagged.

Fourth off - we had the doe tags, there was nothing that said that we had to fill them. Like I said, I hunted all 12 days and most days I hunted from sun up to sun down.

The people in 2D will shoot anything brown, if you don't shoot it, the next guy down the trail will!

It's not an organized system like other areas where people say that they refuse to shoot does.

My fifth point being -
I know the game warden - Mike Girosky, I know where he lives, Elenora, I been to his house, he has been to my house. Mike is a dick, but he treats everybody the same. I also know his head deputy, Dick Rankin, he works at Jefferson Grocery. He is even worse than Mike! Which makes him a good deputy game warden!

The fact of the matter is - where were they? They were not patroling like other years. It's not my job to turn in poachers, I shouldn't have to stick out my neck - only to get it cut off for doing something wrong myself.


The fact of the matter is that I don't like these road hunters that drives around looking for an opportunity to shoot out the window at a easy one.

I don't like all these roads opened up so any Tom Dick or Harry can drive right into where I like to hunt. I don't believe that doe season should be more than 2 days long. I don't believe that people are going to hunt and not take a doe when they have not seen anything legal or did see deer and couldn't put 4 points on them.

Everytime someone breaks the rules, more posted signs goes up. Then the people that hunted there has to look for someplace else to hunt. That moves them on to other properities and eventually on to where I like to hunt.

20 deer becomes 10 deer and 10 deer becomes 5 deer and 5 deer becomes 3 deer and 3 deer becomes one deer and one deer becomes no deer.

I turned in a group of hunters last year that were CAMPING in the parking lot that I was just talking about. SGL 31, It is illegal to camp in the Game Lands. The Game Warden couldn't get them to leave, but he did ask them to go down the road for a while. I believe that their statement to him was that they were not camping, they were just waiting for Monday for the season to open up.

There is no rules as to when you can go in the game lands to hunt for deer.
They had a camper and a boxtruck and sleeping bags and a cook out fireright there in the parking lot. Gas and charcoal grills and the works!

Half of them was from Ohio and the other half was from Latrobe!

5 deer in the grand scheme of things is not a lot of deer. Especially when you consider that I put 80 miles a day just to get to and come home from where I was hunting. I have a dozen places where I am welcome to hunt anytime I want and I never take more than one deer from any one spot.

What is one deer? The cars on the road will just hit it if I didn't shoot it anyways.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

You need to read what you posted in bold letters.SENIORS MUST ABIDE BY ANTLER RESTRICTIONS.Your opinion of Mike is obviously different than mine.I know him well and he's a dedicated WCO.I'm also good friends with one of his deputies that just retired within the last two years.These guys do a thanklessjob and have to cover hundreds of miles.They can't be everywhere at once,so tips from the public make a big differance.

I'm not sure what the game lands # isby O'donnel bridge but my friends do well there.I do spend time occassionally on SGL 44 and 54.I get them confused but they run into each other.One's in Elk county and the other one is by the old game school.Plenty of deer in both of those areas.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Rifleman you really double talk alot.

You complain of no deer but your party shoots 5.(4 does)Shooting a deer because the guy down the trail would anyways is the dumbest excuse ever to shoot a deer. But I forget, YOUR 5 deer are nothing in the grand scheme, its everybody elses that are the ones hurting the population.

I'm a bit confused by this statement

Ever here of SPORT. Sportsmen Policing Our Ranks Together. WCO's can't be everywhere, that's why we rely on people turning in others who are breaking the law. Also what do you mean by getting your neck cut off for doing something wrong yourself?


I think for all the complaining you do, about all you have to do is look in the mirror to see the source of your troubles.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

[blockquote]Gary Alt is a wind bag--That big rack didn't come from PA anyway...He has ruined the
whole deer thing...The deer are really spotty in the North East section...

Alt should have stayed with the bears...We hunted in 3B for 3 days and never seen
a stinking thing..Maybe a song bird or two...Who cares about the big racks...
You can't eat the horns..give me a break..If your after the meat then even a
spike is the way to go..The scrubs aint gonna amount to anything anyway...
I think alot of the problems with no deer in some areas is the lack of good food.
Where I was raised we had 6 farms there and plenty of deer..I mean it was
nothing to see 40 or 50 in a herd..Now there is one farm operating and if
you see 3 or 4 deer your lucky..I heard the Game commision say it was the
coyots distroying the herd..Stop it....We should go back to the 3 day or maybe
a 2 day doe season..Maybe a 5 day buck season and allow sunday hunting for
the guys that can't get out the first day.....Nough said......John do little

[/blockquote]

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

1.So where did the rack come from.Lot's have been killed since that are even bigger.
2.Scrubs won't amount to anything.Lot's of research out there that will dispute that.
3.Pgc never stated the coyotes destroyed the deer herd.Read the studies.
4.Lack of food.Bingo you nailed it.Why add more deer to overbrowsed habitat?

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

There's overharvested areas with good habitat that could hold more deer.6 dpsm in decent to good habitat is a bit low.Not every place in the state is like Rockton mountain Doug.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

No doubt that's true Rich,especially around more populated areasbut that isn't the case with any place I've ever seen around here.Where the habitat is junk,you'll find very few deer.Where it's better,you'll find more.I've yet to see a spot in 2G where this isn't the case.I hunted a buddies property this year in Susquehanna county.He thought is was great habitat becausethere's some agriculture around.I thought it was as bad as some of the worst places around here.

6 dpsm is very low for good habitat.Where can I find deer densities that low that have good habitat?

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Look on the flir Doug.The average might end up at 14-15 dpsm for the overall flyover area but many places are well below that reaching the 6 dpsm and in some cases lower.I gave you directions to the one place.Other then the southeastern corner against the posted land it's pretty dire.Most places like this with few deer and decent to good habitat have something in common,easy access.
The SGL's down here are a whole different ballgame.The undergrowth is so thick it's hard to find a twenty yard opening in alot of places.Plenty of greenbriar in there.But very,very,few deer.It gets hammered in rifle.And I do mean hammered.Aint my cup of tea so I don't hunt there but hike and ride bike through the trails.PGC even has some nice foodplots.I checked their cornfields in late fall and found one set of tracks.This area needs a different management approach.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

I heard from a deputy that the rack was from Ohio and Gary was
using it to get a point across...I know there are some nice bucks
out there or at least there was before the season opened...The
game commission is like any other gov. agency and damn batch
of liars..They tell you what they are told to report..Nothing different.
And they did mention at one of our gun club dinners that the coyots
all killing the young or crippled deer...They should offer some of these
out of work farmers the oppertunity to plant some groups for the herd..

I hear a lot of guys saying they aint gonna hunt any more or for
at least a year or so..I know guys that get a doe permit and throw
it in the trash to get others from getting one of them...But I aint gonna argue
about it with anyone..I know what I see and hear and it aint no
damn good at all.....Nough said Do-little

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

We really need to be done bashing and start using our heads, its plenty clear the PGC is not gong to change the course, if you feel we need three days of doe season than limit the last three days to nothing but does and don't let it cross your mind to whack that buck ,be it big or small.

And really tell me how killing the very deer we are short of saves them from our highways.[:@]

Good god leave them to their own fate,you might be surprised that a few even survive to reproduce.:D

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Johnny2: i agree with ya 100% nuf said!

DougE,,,not to keep singeling you out but your quote is:No doubt that's true Rich,especially around more populated areasbut that isn't the case with any place I've ever seen around here.
if im wrong forgive me but that statement is saying to me that you have not or ever have had a problem with your deer herd in the area your hunting and you are completely happy with the season as it stands,,,and by which the laws that govern said season?
if this is true then we are just beatin the fore mentioned horse some more! and theres no sense in me trying to tell you what i am experiencing because you wont believe anything im taking the time totype anyhow(along with a good many others)
But im thinking that i must have read it wrong,,why else would anyone take the time and effort to try to prove that the PGC and Alt are/were doin the right thing!
How do you respond?

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Doug as a fellow hunter I feel you are stand up guy. But your constant posting of multiple doe kills just under mines your stance.

Is there a need for anyone to really know what you chose to shoot?

Why post aggravating stuff ,who are you trying to wind up?

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

You know, I lived in Clearfield 14 years ago and I drove to Clearfield as much as 30 years ago. I can tell you that on the way home at night it was nothing to see 100 deer along RT 322 from the bottom of the mountain to Mitches Restaraunt - Top of the Mountain as it is called now.

Why were they along side the road? Because there was nothing in the woods for them to eat that they liked. They liked the green grass that PennDot planted along the road there and that is why they stayed there.

If you look along the road at the top of the mountain, you can see in the woods for 100's of yards, there is no ground cover.

Where did all the deer go? Hunters - yes some - but Clearfield County was the Number 1 or Number 2 county in the State for the harvest of deer for many decades.

Coyotes - Im sure of that! They can reduce a population of deer faster than hunters ever could.

Road Kills? Maybe - but then again, there was always road kills along that road and now there is almost none.

The same with Potter County. I helped build a cabin for the people that owned Pa Pressed Metals in Emporium and can tell you that outside of their cabin - you could look into the meadow in the morning and see 20 - 30 deer grazing in their pasture. Now there are none!

In the grand scheme of things, 3 or 4 deer is nothing. You are not going to save the herd with the addition of 3 or 4 deer over an area of 20 - 40 square miles. We should have 10 deer to the square mile and not 2 to 3!

We didn't shoot all these deer in one area. On the contrary, we shot two in one place and one in another and one in another and still one in another.

The distance between any one kill and the next was no less than 3 miles!

To put it in perspective, my neighbor owns a company that sells Tombstones and he is a retired state cop. His grandfather was a higher up in R & P Coal - which owned large tracts of land in Jefferson and Indiana and Armstrong Counties.

This guy owns hundreds of acres and if I asked I could hunt when ever I wanted / where ever I wanted.

On my way to Church Saturday night there was 1 doe across from the intersection - not 10 feet off the road grazing and another than I had to stop the truck in the middle of RT 310 to let cross the road.

If either of them would have jumped out on the road, that would have been one more dead deer. There is one dead deer already laying along side of the road there right now. Which would you rather have - deer that people eat and enjoy or deer that are hit by cars and die along side the road and nobody eats them and they go to waste.

I will give you the repair bill from the last one that crossed there in front of me - $1500 to theTruck and I didn't even have the fender repainted. The fog light is still broke and the fender is bunged up. Guess when it happened - the night of the last day of deer season last year on my way home from church!

There are no more deer there now than there was 30 years ago when I was a kid and R & P coal owned the property and everybody was allowed to hunt there.

So how does your theory work where you think that if you do not shoot a doe and if you burn your tag - there will be more deer next year?

What about the road hunter that does not tag a deer and shoots more than one per a day and never gets caught. You didn't shoot it, he drives down the road and shoots it. Takes it home, cuts it up or gives it away and goes right back out and shoots another one.

With the unlimited tags, a person can get every person in their family 3 tags and shoot allseason and as long as he doesn't get caught doing it - can get away legally with shooting as many deer as they like!

Where are the deer?

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

I don't think anythingI can type will defeat that logic.:eek:

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Rich,the area of that FLIR clearly showed that there were large areas with very few if any deer.All the deer were concentrated in areas that had food at that time of the year.That's what happens when you have such poor habitat.The deer key in on whatever few food sources are around and they quickly destroy those areas.If the habitat was better,the deer would be spread out more and they wouldn't impact the habitat as much.It's also a prime reason why a guy can go into those areas,see plenty of deer on occassion and the rest of hunters are complaining about no deer.Increasing the herd in that situation is the worst thing you could do.

rem700,I'm not denying that there's places with few deer.I do almost 100% of my fifle hunting andabout half of my bow hunting on public land in 2G.There are many places where there's few deer but I don't waste my time hunting there because there's no reason for deer to be there.I concentrate where there's food and cover and see plenty of deer.

bawanajim,this post was a friendly debate about deer management in Pa.I believe 100% in keeping the herd low in areas where the habitat was or is being impacted by too many deer.The proof is irrefutable and I feel no guilt killing multiple deer in these areas,

Rifleman,I lived in Rockton for several years during the 90's and Iremeber those deer herd on Rockton mountain very well.Those deer totally destroyed the habitat and now there's no reason for them to be there.The same holds true for thousands and thousands of acres in the northern tier.If we want more deer in the future,we have to have alot less deer now so the habitat recovers.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

So Doug could you help me with why we in western PA Crawford county with some of the best habitat in the country have devastated our deer numbers?

The results are acres of posted land .

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

I never hunted in Crawford county but I have spend quite a bit of time in Ashtabula county Ohio.The areas I hunted out there were managed heavily for deer and were fed year round plus they left crops standing all year long for the deer.Other than that though,the only thing growing was beech,which is terrible deer habitat.

In Crawfor county,what constitutes some of the best best habitat in the county?Specifically what's growing out there?

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Cussawago bottoms,French creek, red and white oaks ,farming,rural, the area is 50 percent forested .Stop by some time I'll show you around.Do a search on Pymatuning.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/stateparks/parks/pymatuning.aspx#hunting

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

I just love reading debates on this subject!! DougE hits the nail on the head with every post. Some Pa hunters just will not accept the facts.