RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Not another blind hunter[:@] You guys have got to get out there and look around..
Some areas have plenty of deer and others NOT So how can you say what it is
like all over the state when in reality,you have NO idea...Maybe only what your reading..

The game commission is taking your word for all this crap.cause they are too lazy
to get off thier on a--....How far back into the woods do you think they are going to walk.

Not far,I know that....If I wanted to get an illegal deer,it would be pretty easy....But
then again why kill the last deer in the woods..Maybe a stocking system is in order:D

Ive hunted Penns woods for a good many years and I know darn well what I aint
seeing and thats large numbers of deer...johnny

PS--How many deer(fawns) will coyots eat in a year????

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

http://i220.photob

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Johnny,I hunt in several different counties and WMU's each year.I also try to hit at least 3 different habitat tours each year that are held accross the state.I've seen quite a few places with few deer but no places that had good habitat and few deer.To me it's easy to look at an areas and totaly dismiss it as a place I want to hunt.It always boggles my mind when people say they scout,find no deer and hunt there anyway.Why would anyone hunt where there's no deer?It also amazes me when I see piles of trucks parked in areas where you can see for hundreds of yards through barren woods.I live and hunt in the WMU that has the lowest deer densities of any place in the state.There's vast areas with very few deer but the deer have very few reasons to be there.I hunt where the should be and not where I want them to be.As a result,I see and harvest plenty of deer each season.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Johnny,we have far less coyotes than themidwestern states and they don't eat all their deer.It's actually been proven and documeneted that coyotes have far less of an impact on fawns in areas with better habitat.Habitat is the key Johnny.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

That explains it very clearly now:eek:

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Doug
why try with these guys? They are hopeless.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

I was hopeless at one time myself.:D

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Many people were, but if someone doesn’t get it by now, I just don’t think there’s much more you can do. But good luck, fighting the good fight.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

yes sometimes I think you guys are hopeless hunter but I'll keep trying.
Doug,we always seem to hit a wall somewhere between habitat and overharvesting.Trust me as I said many times on here not all areas have low numbers because of habitat.Some places just have too much hunting pressure with easy access which keeps the populations down to very low numbers.
As for deer coming out to the road on 322,sometime when the acorns are thick spotlight in the field on greenwood road.You'll see alot of deer in there and alot just laying down.Not much in that old field to eat yet they come out to the clearing.Never during the day only at night.I see deer in people's yards just standing or sitting when the acorns are heavy back in the woods.I know a place where they stop and snack on fresh apples on their way out to a clearing which has nothing to eat.I often wondered why they come into openings at night but it's definately not always to eat.Many of times I saw deer standing or laying on 322 with fresh acorns on the ground back in the woods.They'll take white oak acorns over dryed up grasses anyday.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

bawanajim,I took the liberty to look up past harvests for Crawford county.You decide if the hunting is worse there now than ever before.
1970-730 antlered,697 antlered
1980-1106 antlered,842 antlerless
note:these two years were actual reported harvest not calculated.
1990-4364 antlered,6311 antlerless
1995-3849 antlered,5565 antlerless
1999-4864 antlered,4998 antlerless
2003-4110 antlered,9440 antlerless
2005-I don'thave the county data but heres the breakdown between wmu's 1a and 1b.
1A-51000 antlered,15600 antlerless 1B-5400 antlered,12000 antlerless.

It looks to me like they're still killing a pile of bucks in Crawford county.Much more in fact than they did in the 70's and 80's.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Gerrmain,like Istated earlier,I'm sure some places have been overharvested.This is especially true in easily accessible areas closer to areas that are heavily populated.No way did the dee get overharvested around Rockton mountain or in the vast wilderness areas of 2G.the habitat just can't support large numbers of deer anymore and it makes no sense to add more deer to those areas.

I huntedin the Elk state forest near Sinnemahoning this past saturday.I saw tons of tracks and the biggest buck I've ever laid eyes on.Not another human track to be found.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Well!!! once again we have thrashed this topic for ten full pages and as far as im concerned i will agree to disagree. The 3 months that i spent in Pa. this year traveling back and forth on I-80 from the State College area to dubois wasabove and beyond proof to me that the PGC and the "i have to believe it's so" hunters in Pa. just dont give a flying F@!kabout deer hunting anymore. And what really bites me in the a$$ is,,,what state in this union was more well known for it's hunting than Pa,,, and the amount of hunters that particapated every year? We have beat this topic up for 5 maybe 6 years and i look for it to go on that much longer,,with alot less hunters buying their liscense. On the brighter side tho,,,our typing skills will probably be much better than our hunting skills

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Maybe that's why you saw lots of tracks and a huge buck Doug.No human prints equals little hunting pressure right?Rockton and the Parker dam area has very easy access with roads everywhere.Yes the areas were overpopulated before HR but after HR started is when the deer numbers to a nose dive.Coincidence?

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Nope,you're wrong.People do care and they're trying to fix the problem.When you travel from State college to Dubois on I80,you travel through the middle of some of the worst and most overbrowsed areas on the east coast.There's several Habitat tours within a short drive from Dubois each year.You should really attend one and try to explain to the professionals exactly what they're doing wrong.I tried that myself about 6 years ago and fell flat on my face each time.There's reams and reams of solid indisputablescientific evidence that proves how bad the deer impacted the habitat inthat part of Pa.The hunting is still excellent in that area.You just have to hunt where the deer should actually be.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

New here, was a member about 7 to 4 years ago. Bawanajim is right on the money with what he is saying about Crawford County. I live and hunt there.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

delete

What is this???????????????

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Rich,there's deer there because it's one of the few places with any browse and cover in that area.It's steep and brutal to hunt.In fact,you really can only hunt one bench and the top of the mountain.The sides are way too steep to hunt but the deer go over the edges to bed and you'll never get at them.The guy that lives at the bottom of the hillis constantly complaining about the doe slaughter.No way could hunters have even the slightest impact on the herd in that area and it goes like that for miles and miles.I have a buddy that has a camp right next to that guy and I don't remember the last time any of them killed a deer.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Doug I won't even go to where you got your numbers.I live here, I hunt here ,I own land here Go to the meat wrapers go to the taxi's go to anyone but your fan club the PGC and maybe you would understand the lack of support they recieve here.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Doug do you happen to know what year the PGC started to use estimates for harvest numbers and not the actual returned cards?[/align]

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

It's all aboutaccess boys.Where land is open to unlimited hunters there's not going to be alot of deer.Places where hunter numbersare limited and managed will have good numbers of deer.I've seen this time and time again,north,south,east,and inbetween.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

I agree so much on this germainI will see how next few years go in my area, imight bepretty excited.
My thoughts on this year is different than past. First I want to say that while hunting in an area w/ very high hunting pressure it has been tough the last few years. Hunting and seeing little to no deer and still having to deal w/ so many hunters all around in the only areas that have had some sign of deer. [/align] Late summer while walking an area w/ low deer numbers and a section that got hit by an ice storm a few years ago and knocked a lot of trees down, I saw some re growth like ive never seen in my life. Now this area before the deer kill and the ice storm was the worst habitat around w/ lots of ferns. well the oaks were coming up like you would not believe. So I started thinking is it the deer or the open canopy, im guessing it's both. [/align] Now this gets me thinking about the cuts and fences that are being put up, would it not be a good advantage for usnow w/ the low deer numbers and the financial problems the PGCare in to maybe slow down on the fences? We have a lot of old strip mines and they could take some of the money from the fences and create some food plots in the general areas of the cuts. Yes I know that the deer will still eat the browse but just like farm land the plots will take some pressure off the browse least until winter. [/align] Now to the rifle season, I was thinking this is going to be like all the rest not much deer to be seen and hunters everywhere. But what happened was this year no hunters. I mean not a one. It was like my dad and I and brother had our own private land to hunt. It was great, we still didn't see many deer but the ones that we saw where feeding at different times of the day not even pressured at all. So for all the people that say they never see hunters and so on and I always thought they were crazy well I saw it myself and loved every second of it.[/align]here are the numbers...[/align]Me hunted 6 days from dark to dark cept the first day made it till 3:30 w/ the wind and fog. saw 17 deer of 7 that was the last day, 5 buck and 3 yotes. no deer killed but got one yote[/align] Dad hunted all 12 days saw 15 deer no bucks that he knew of and a 400+ bear.. no deer killed[/align] Brother hunted 5 days saw 7 deer, no bucks.. no deer killed[/align]Not a great season for deer sightings but we all agreed that not seeing orange all around us was priceless. And getting to hunt w/ my dad and brother is always good so I would have to say I had a good season. [/align][/align]

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

gobbler,if your area is seeing new growth{regen}without the hunting pressure the deer numbers should increase.
Glad to see you had a good season and those deer numbers you guys saw is pretty darn good for public land these a days.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

YIPPEEEEEEEEEEEEE! took a week off work,,,3 of us hunted 230 and a half hours,,,did'nt see S**t for deer but it was a great season because we did'nt see any other hunters??????????????????????????????????????????? ?

WTF? i must need my head examined for even trying to figure that logic out!!!

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

bawanajim,the number came fron PA GAME NEWS AND pgc PRESS RELEASES.

Pa Gobbler,they went to calculated harvests in 1986.

rem700,I thought you saw four bucks the first day and ended up killing 2 doe.Doesn't sound like a bad hunting season to me.I dished out 3k a few years ago to go on a guided wilderness elk hunt in Colorado.I never saw an elk until the last afternoon and never drew my bow.It was a nice trip anyway and the guide still got a tip.I certainly didn't boycot the state of Colorado for the lack of hunting success that week.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

My question is now who if anyone will allow the white-tailed deer to populate PA again or is thisthe best its gonna get?

Not to rain on anyones parade but the PGC has had a bunch of biologist for many years but now some of you believe this crop of them have it right.

Does the name Don Madl raise any red flags?

Quite pompous of you I feel.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Sorry but this is it for awhile. Not because the PGC wants it that way but because a large portion of our forest is now in the stage again where it cant support the numbers we enjoyed until recently.

Here's an interesting trivia question for you guys.

Q: How muchdeer forage is produced by an acre of mature mixed hardwoods?

A: 10-15 pounds

Q: How much is produced in a new clearcut less than 5 years old?

A: 1000 pounds

Q: How much in pole timber?

A: up to 5 pounds

Q: how much is produced in a food plot?

A:15.000 pounds

Big differences between the different stages. Since much of our timber has matured out and been cut and since our timber spends the vast majority of it's life cycle in the pole timber stage, it aint gonna change soon.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

yep Jim this is about as good as it gets on state forest.If that's where you're hunting find somewhere else.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

All you had to do was ask and I would have taken you with me. The deer are all in the South now - along the borders of the towns and cities - where you cannot hunt them.

I think that was their goal all along to clean out the woods and force the hunters to stick around home where they could get a easy one.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

With all the talk about timber, it got me to thinking.

THE PGC told us that they were broke and needed a license increase. They didn't get it.

Maybe if we all paid $100 per a license and $50 for kids, they would have enough money that they wouldn't have to sell bonus licenses anymore.

Where I live, they are cutting the timber, putting in gas wells as fast as they can drill them and the food plots are empty.

Then I read my hunting digest and it said that it was illegal to plant anything in the game lands. So even a good intention minded person cannot go into the game lands and plant something on their own in the food plots.

Maybe that is the easiest way to get the deer out of the woods and into the peoples back yards where they can shoot them out the window.

My question is - if it is illegal to drive on roads posted closed, then why are the gas well companies allowed to drive on them while hunting season is open?
It seems a rip off that the drillers are allowed to come and go as they please, and the hunters that paid for the land are not.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

DougE:
i dont know where you read that i saw deer the 1st day or even killed any,,,,i didnt even hunt Pa. this year,,,or last year,,,due to the fact that i could not in any way justify killing a deer in Pa.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

So with deer #'s in question,what effect will this have on hunter #'s? License sales #'s? Will it become unlimited doe tags? How much longer can they make seasons?

We now have legal baiting, four year old hunters & spears have been OKed where will it end?

Just how many deer are some of you willing to kill per year?

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

License numbers are definately going to drop.Some from the older age of our hunting population and some from deer issues.I haven't seen the numbers yet for this season but in the last couple of years the drop has been steady.One of these years I expect a big decrease and they'll need a way to finance those losses.General funding may be the only method of offsetting those losses.Age,loss of hunting land,economics,and yes the deer numbers are some reasons for license sales decreases.


How many deer will I kill?I hunt buck only and haven't shot a doe for quite awhile now.Others around our area do a good job of killing the does for us.:D

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

As our numbers decrease more pressure we be placed on those of us that continue to hunt to kill more and more deer. Do you see [earn a buck] or other programs put in place to force us to kill these unwanted doe?

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

They ever start {earn a buck program}I'll hunt in another state.

According to many on here there isn't a doe problem anymore on most public land because the habitat is too bad to support them.So hunters really aren't needed on say state forest land because the poor habitat is keeping numbers low already.Am I right?
As for private land there will always be enough family members and such to take out a few does.Most people who hunt deer that own land that I know don't want deer numbers anywhere near as low as public land so they won't use as many tags.
As for SGL's they'll just hand out more tags per person to get the job done.I really don't see that as an issue.I see money {funding}as the problem for the PGC in the future.As the hunter numbers continue to drop I can't see us being able to support the PGC alone.There's plenty of activity within the PGC that's not related to hunting including wildlife complaints so I say let the general public help finance the agency.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

As with a poorly run company the PGC will be replaced.Remember how the auto industry ignored customer demands for better cars.Honda came along and built cars people wanted and people bought them.
If reasonable demands keep falling on deaf ears the same will happen or is happening with the PGC.
I own 150 acres here in Crawford county.I own it for the sole reason to hunt deer. My land and much more is in jeopardy of becoming another mall because of the mismanagement of this states greatest resource.

And I also will not be forced to kill at random.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

One other point being new management areas were formed to better manage the herd yet the whole state is managed as to be a deer free zone.[:'(]

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

Well I'll use 5b as an example.Loads of tags and it's a pretty safe bet to get two if you want them.Problem is with the liberal amount of tags the public land is what got hammered.Private landowners can control how many deer they want killed so the number of tags only affects them by choice.This is why I think SGL's and some other public land needs a different management approach.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

I think we are seeing the land owners response to the herd management plan by the acres of posted land.The PGC has its say on public land but allot of sportsmen are paying for their stance on public land.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

I'm sorry - but you can't replace the government.
No matter how badly it is mismanaged or how much it is debt, you cannot shut it's doors. Who would take it over? The fish commission? I would be all for that - because the fish commission is running in the green and isn't complaining about a lack of funds and also stocks fish through out the commonwealth.

The only reason for the hunting zones in my opinion - was to make it easier for the road hunters to go from woodlot to woodlot cleaning out the deer. When one place is empty - you can drive down the road 20 miles and clean out another spot and your tags are still legal.

Back in the day, if them city hunters from Greensburgh and Latrobe and Pittsburgh wanted to hunt does in let's say Jefferson County, they had to buy a tag for Jefferson County and give up the right to a tag in Westmoreland County.

Now they can go to Jefferson County and if they don't get anything they can still go home and hunt down by Delmont and still be legal.

It made it better for the city hunters and worse for the country folk.

RE: A friendly deer camp debate...about PA regs
 

There are good biological reasons for AR and increased doe harvest:

1. It improves the buck / doe ratio.

2. This will concentrate thebreeding season, and reduce the incidence of late fawns.

3. It will reduce stress on the does. If they get bred 1st time in heat, then they can settle in for winter, not have second estrous, have fawn at normal time, have full growing season for fawn to nurse and wean.

4. Only the older, higher quality "survivor" bucks will breed. This will increase the genetic quality of the herd.

5. With the improved buck / doe ratio and breeding competition, the yearling bucks won't breed hardly at all, won't exhaust themselves, and will be more likely to survive healthier.

6. Reduced deer populations will allow damaged habitat to recover.