I hunt out west every year and we see 100's of deer every day. In 5 years of going to the same ranch, I have seen areas change where 50 came out into a pasture every night to none coming out a year later. All because they go where the food is. They move to the food and are not going to starve just to stay in the same place.

Find the groceries and find the deer.

You should see the work the PGC is doing in 4c. Clear cutting and food plots are popping up all over. I can't wait for October.

Doug,we've discussed this all before so I might make this my last post on this particular subject but I want to use another example.Here in Lancaster county our SGL has some of the best deer habitat I've seen not to mention some well done food plots.In most places you're hard pressed to find an opening of 20-25 yards of shooting.Getting to that spot can also be interesting because of the thickness of the woods.However if you scout this sgl as I have finding much deer sign if any isn't going to happen.Why?Because it gets hammered in rifle season....pressure.Head up the road 1/2 mile on the posted land and you'll see 30-40 deer spotting.Hunting pressure remains the main factor in deer populations in PA and alot of state lands are getting over harvested.I can't believe you don't find it ironic that the two highest concentrations of deer in that flir in the mosh are located up against posted land.

well said and you are correct..
we hunted sgl252 in lycoming co.
we hunted pheasants and deer there, have relatives there..
i did not see 1 pile of deer poo...
BEST habitat you would ever see, farms all over,corn in sgl,browse,acorns, apples...

someone said,DEER GO WHERE FOOD IS..

well, what can i say,lots of food on sgl252 and no deer...

i know answer why but will see if someone gives me a good laugh........

I think this is insane. Finally, bigger bucks, healthier does and they want to reverse that. Over the past three years I have seen a drastic improvement in the quailty of bucks in PA. 10 years ago hunters in PA shot anything with an antler even is it was a fork horn 1 & 1/2 or a spike because they wanted meat for the freezer. The old way of doe hunting casued people to have to take the Monday and Tuesday off of work to shoot only a doe. Some or in some cases most can't get time off during buck and doe. We would hunt the doe season and never see a hunter and the doe have been pushed from every direction during the two week buck season and sit tight as can be causing the few that hunted doe season it to push and push and take pot shots at runnings does and most likely increasing the wound shots rather than the clean shots. Now if you shoot a buck it most likely a decent rack slightly larger body and more meet for the freezer. Preseason scouting for me says we are heading in the right direction and in a few years the doe permits will decrease in numbers but the concurrent seasons are a must if you want tomanage the herd numbers as a whole. Thats my two cents. I wonder if the car insurance companies would like more doe on the sides of the roads at night time in the winter licking rock salt.

JMO

I haven’t been here for a while but I see it hasn’t changed.

Losthorn, I got teary-eyed over your pointing out how the USP is trying to save more deer for the kiddies to hunt. What a kind and wonderfully considerate group they are. PUKE!
And those mean old non-USP all being killers of multiple deer each year. Ut oh, I just realized I am non-USP and I’ve killed 1 buck in ten years in PA and maybe 3 does!!!! Now that I think about it, it’s about the same for most of my neighbors and friends! I wonder what’s up with that?
I do recall Jim Slinsky calling me and telling me how he killed 6 doe in S, Carolina one year. And good old Jim, the USP spokesman, goes on all sorts of hunts to get “more” animals.
I wonder if he magically changes his ways here in PA?
Another prominent member posted the last two years how he and his daughter, son-in-law and several others in his camp took multiple does and about a 75% rate on bucks!
(one was a 11-pointer and another a big 8-pointer)

What the USP, through a couple of influential people, is trying to do is to abolish hunting. Plain and simple, their acts are anti-hunting.

Sproulman, I see you still haven’t studied any of the facts that have been posted over and over again to help you.
More of that; “they hate USP because they want to kill 5 doe” stuff eh?
There’s always been a tendency to judge all people as the same ---if it helps you to make excuses for your own failures.
The bottom line is that you don’t get it, you never got it and probably never will get it.

USP’S action is anti-hunting. Those who actually study wildlife biology really do understand that deer can and do ruin their habitat. They, “get it.”

How “scientific” does a person need to be to realize that no animal, let alone deer, would find any reason to be in the Sproul Forest habitat as shown below?



There are many situations like that and --- just by coincidence, they largely correspond with the “see no deer” areas!
Getting the deer numbers down to allow some of that vegetation to recover is called; “management.”
Blow-downs, naturally death of threes and prescribed logging will only allow re-growth ifdeer numbers are low enough to permit it.

Windwalker, you are quick to point to the PGC for allowing things to get out of control but that is a false assertion. You should read the book about the last 100 years of PGC history and you will see that yes, there was some PGC missteps which they have eagerly admitted to, but there also was “hunter protests” and court battles to not allow “ANY” doe hunting.
PGC biologists wanted and recommended, to reduce deer numbers before you were born but “LEGISLATIVE POWERS” stepped in at hunters request and stopped any attempt at managing for the future.
You really should try to get it right!

The PGC is an easy target for unhappy, unlucky and unskilled hunters. But if for one moment a “man” wants to be honest, he will look at the facts and realize the impact of politics and hunters who simply want a lot of deer, has had.
That does require “honesty.”

PGC “DID” foresee the destruction of habitat back then. Some uneducated hunters “DID” fight them all the way.

USP knows all of this. USP has the information and resources to refer to. USP and Jim Slinsky have contacted many, many biologists from all across America to try to get one single professional to disagree with what the PGC is doing “NOW” and they could not find that one person.

USP is attempting to fulfill PETA, HSUS, Friends of Animals and every other anti-hunting organization’s goals for them, and they are doing, with the help of misguided souls, a much better job of abolishing hunting than any of those organizations could possibly do.

north,I know of areas you've shown in the pic within mosh state forest.These places have zero or very few deer so you'd think we'd start seeing some undergrowth but it still looks the same following the years of HR.

Germain, once the under-story is browsed down and the trees become canopied, it is like putting a roof over the woods and very little, if anything, will grow. In that case, only a very few deer can keep the few areas that do get sunlight during growing times, easily browsed.
Notice the ferns that appeared because deer ate just about everything else except the ferns. Again, in that case, the canopy problem is doubled because even if sunlight gets through, the ferns have covered the ground preventing prefer seeds from sprouting.

Makes sense but now cuttings are needed in such places to let some regen occur.Problem is alot of these areas are in pole timber stage and not ready for max return on timbering.So we can probably assume areas like this won't get better any time soon.
Your post is a good explanation.....thanks