Windwalker, you speak of “the PGC’ as though they made some official announcement as an agency.
I remember in about 1955 -1957 period, a barber, (Richard Daveler), from our town of Marietta shot a canine while deer hunting in Potter County. It was thought to be a “wolf.” It was later checked out by the local “Game Warden,” (Russell Shope), who saidsomething to the effect of he doubted it was a wolf but looked like an exceptionally large coyote.
It was not too many years after that another canine was shot along the river in York County and it was said, (by PGC),to be a coyote.
That was about 50 years ago and it was all the talk of the area at the time.
Yes, there was speculation as to coyotes breeding with dogs but that seemed to me to be a local myth that was not anything the PGC officially claimed. If you can show me evidence to the contrary I’ll gladly accept it.
The incidences were so rare at the time that nobody really knew what was what.
Irecall it was the PGC flat out stating (in PGN), that our coyotes were not “coy dogs.” I can’t tell you what year that was but it was a very long time ago. (decades)
We need to keep in mind that back then the technology simply didn’t exist. Even something like communication between regions was reliant on telephones – no call waiting, no answer machines, no voice mail or call forwarding. When the PGC finally had some evidence and genetic testing available, they were quick to clarify the wolf/coyote hybrids. That also was “decades” ago.
As for wild dogs, they definitely were a problem in some years and many claimed them to be coyotes when in fact they were not. In my area here, in the mid to late 70’s there was talk of “packs” of coyotes numbering 10 and 12 at a time, killing sheep and chickens.
Myself and many others believed it. At the time I didn’t know that our coyotes do not travel and hunt in packs. They hunt in family groups much smaller than the packs of the western coyotes.
One day as two friends and I were building my first cabin I had to go to town for some materials. I left my two friends and as I went out the dirt road a neighbor stopped me to tell me coyotes had attacked his sheep during the night and to keep my eye out for them.
When I got back from town, both my friends were perched on the roof trusses. They told me 9 wild dogs came through and had them “treed.” The next day I killed two of them and that same neighbor killed two about a mile away. I think all were killed in the following weeks as they kept returning to attack the sheep.
So much for the pack of coyotes. (even though we "did" have some coyotes here at the time)
You cannot blame anyone for not knowing the true extent of coyotes in the early years. PGC stated that coyotes were known to exist in the N.E. since the 1920’s, but they did not have the means to verify or estimate how many and in what range they were.
A lot of these post imply “cover up” or conspiracy” and it simply ain’t so.

As for mountain lions, read back. No one says it is impossible that some exist. To date, each and every ML that has been verified has been proven to be pets.
Now, if you want to believe there are “wild” populations, that’s up to you. But the rest of us are saying we need more than “someone said” evidence.
You say “it” has been proven. I ask, “what” has been proven?
“Proof” of wild Ml's is not someone saying they saw them.
And, as you point out, in many cases "seeing" them isn't even proof is was a pet ML.

This is my problem. I just recall this from when I was 12 and just starting hunting. I am now going on 43.

Many of the sheep farmers were all upset about the PGC blaming it all on dogs. I'm sure some of the incidents were the work of dogs.

This even made the evening news on TV. I remember the news crew interviewing a game commissioner in the small town where we hunt. It might have bee Rod Ansell giving the interview, but don't quote me on that. I remember my dad telling my mother that that is right where we hunt.

When the farmers started offerering rewards, many dead coyotes started turning up. The PGC seemed to take the matter more serious after that.

I'd like you to point out, Mr. Northstar, where in my post did I say anything was proven about ML's? You harp about others exagerating stories and twisting facts and seeing just what they want, yet you do the same.


Your previous post is an example. You state I said ML's were proven but I made no such statement.

I want proof just as much as the next guy. I've talked to a few people that claimed to have seem them. I believe these people to have seen what they claimed to have seen. I have no reason to doubt them.

I also "recall" Wayne Van Dyne on one of the TV news stations many years ago going to the house of some lady that made claims of seeing mountain lions all the time. As they were interviewing her on her porch, one of the news crew saw a ML walking along the edge of a field. They got several seconds of footage yet it was blurry because they just swung the camera off of the lady and it wasn't quite focused yet. They showed the blurry footage several times and got alot of news hype about it. You could see that it was a tawny colored cat with a long tail. Even though it was blurry, you could easily see it was a ML and not a house cat.I believe this was back in the 80's.

I'm surprised someone wasn't able to dig up this piece of film. Of course this was pre internet days.

I should have addressed my post to both you and Sproulman.

Sproulman said "it is proven" but since then he went back and edited that out of his post.
That's the kind of thing that makes his claims questionable.

You did say, "As for mountain lions, yes they are here."
Now, that may not contain the word "proven" but it is said as a fact. A "fact" is something that is proven.

A cat with a long tail could easilly be a house cat at a distance. That "has" happened and been proven -- yup, "proven" to be the case in at least one report.
Funny how video gets blurry when those $30,000 news video cams pf 20 years ago had pretty much instant focus.
By the way, TV stations archive all of their reports. I'm sure if it exists they have it and may possibly share it with you since it would give them some ratings.

Ain't it also funny how some posts make these cats out to be ghost of the deep dark forests, but in others they casually walk past a house with a group of people standing there? And it just so happens it is a news crew!!!!!

I believe this was KDKA news team. The footage was out of focus but I recall seeing the black and white facial markings. You could also see the long thick tail floating and twitching as it casually walked along the edge of the field then went in the woods.

I recall they showed the film to some experts ( don't recall what made them experts) but they agreed that the footage showed a ML.

The lady made claims to seeing them around her house all the time.



Cougardeville,

Maybe you can look into this. I belive this was early 80's news segment for KDKA news out of Pittsburg. The reporter was Wayne Van Dyne. He was one of those invetigative reporters that usually did stories on fraud and ripoffs. If there was someone or some business that was ripping people off he'd interveiw the person and try to get the problem solved.

I'm sure that fottage is somewhere. I believe that even NorthPA would agree that it was a cougar after viewing it. Then he'd probably want proof that it was filmed in PA

Would this be considered as twisting words to make them say what you want?

I understand what I said. You made it seem as though, I said that there was proof of ML's in PA.

I'm convinced they are here.

I served on a jury once. I listened to an eyewitnes tell of what he saw. This wasn't proof or was it?

There's lots of guys sitting in prison because of witness testimony.


Sometimes there is just a blurry security camera photo to go along with the witnesses story.

That seems to be proof enough in that situation.

Windwalker, you are kind of ignoring what was said ain't ya?
I clearly explained and clarified that it was Sproul who said"proven."
If you didn't understand that here it is again --- Sproulman said "proven" and later changed his post to edit that out.

I also clearly said that you stated it as a fact, in as--- "yes they are." That isn't a maybe, it isn't a could be, it isn't might be, it is stated as a fact.
Do you need that explained also?

Anyway, you've convinced me -- "black and white facial markings" and a blurry video is enough to convict someone along with witness testimony.
I think humans are mostly capable of identifying other humans but blurry, unidentifiable video certainly isn't proof on it's own.

"You"stated some humans mistake bobcats for cougars -- it ain't the same thing as one human identifying another.

Oh well, I really don't care. If and when there's is "real proof" of a "wild" (not pet) mountain lion, then I will glady accept them as existing in our forests. (except when they go to Florida for the winter to avoid the snow)

Geeeez - How many more pages are you guys going Beat up on Each Other over the SAME OLE Mountain Lion stories.

Yes it is getting old.


There are some things that people believe or just consider as fact without being proven.

Example;

Everyone knows OJ Simpson killed his ex wife and her boyfriend. yet it just wasn't proven in court. Today he is a free man because of the lack of proof.


We all take for granted that there are other planets in our solar system ( Saturn, Uranus, Jupiter, Neptune) yet science can only show "Enhanced" photos to prove it. Nothing material, just photos. No soil, no rocks, not a thing. Just enhanced photos. We all know they are there though.

Many of us believe in God, yet many atheist ask for the same " proof " We can't, we just know there is a God and we accept that as "fact".

Some things we just have to sort out for ourselves.

When I make a statement that "they are here" I am convinced of that. I can't prove it anymore that I can prove there is a God or planets.

I guess maybe I can make you understnd it this way, NorthPA. If you wife or daughter told you they saw a large bear walk through your yard and there were no tracks or photos, would you believe them? After you grilled them with dozens of questions and all were answered pointing toward a bear, would you believe they were telling the truth? Why would they make up a story?

Well after questioning a few witnesses myself I believe they saw a cougar. Everthing they described pointed towards a ML. The tail the color, the reaction.

The one my old GF saw was crouched beside the road as she passed. She was within 10ft. She even commented that it had white hair coming out of its ears. Said it was crouched down with its ears laid back and acted like it was scared. She describe the hair curling outof its ears.


I immediatly thought BOBCAT with ear tufts. She went on to describe how she watched it cross the road behind her in the rearview mirrior. She kept saying it was orange, big as a deer and had a long tail that curled up in the air as it ran.

If you ever seen a cougar run, that is exactly what the tail does.

She got made fun of pretty bad at work by all us guys ( we worked at the same place)

She stuck to her story but wasn't one to make up stuff anyway.



Well, we've beat this dead horse for way to long. Hopefully time will tell, and when it does, I expect a full apology from you

It,s breaking some law. If not the holy ones its the pets owners. That may be a steep fine sproulman.

Posted this one before....look close by the porch.....