First you have to put the pictures on a host site like hunting pictures.com, or one of the other hosting sites.
Then you copy the URL and paste it between the little doflickies that show up when you click on the post a picture icon.

In case you are wondering<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>, I am not very computer literate when it comes to anything other than excel, or chart wizard!

Hope I made it understandable.

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

Mark, that is an informative link, however, trying to get objective data on this subject from the QDMA is like trying to get objective or neutral data from Hand Gun Control Inc on gun control: each organization has a point to make and will tailor their data to make that point.

I was one of QDM's biggest supporters in NJ when it was first introduced (over 10 years ago in some areas). Now, I have seen first hand it doesn't always work as promised. I still beleive certain measures can work very well, but not in heavily hunted area's. I know comparing NJ to Pa is not an exact science, but the hunting pressure, habitat and deer herds are very similar, so I think very similar results can be expected. What are those results? As we have proven here, they are fewer deer, fewer bucks and fewer big bucks, with more hunters competing for them (by virtue of being forced to shoot only certain animals). I hope you guys can do better, but don't expect too much, or you will be in for a big let-down.

I think we were a little spoiled by the large deer herds of the past. Managing by science means that you would also make adjusments by increasing the herd where it is low. The WMU's and DMAP are tool more tools the biologists have added to their toolboxes. DMAP will allow them to concentrate doe removals where it is truly needed and reduce some of the excess tag pressure on public grounds.

I hunted with my son on thelast day of flintlock. One man driving. In one case I kicked up two deer ( I knew it from the beds and fresh tracks) and they went within 80 yards of him, but must of spotted him and turned up. I followed them for about two hours. They stayed in this same section of woods for most of it. The son watching the outside. They bedded several times for a minute hoping I would loss them. I never saw them. It is un-believable how good they are at this point. If there was no snow, I would of figured there was no deer here. At the end of the day I drove six past him. They were up and moving the second I enetered the woods. Good thing we have a closed season and let them relax before we start after them again. But it has always been hard to get a deer. Ever hear the song, &quot;One damn deer&quot;?

Mark, No, I never heard that song, but I know deer are tough to get. You may be misunderstanding me a little, which is easy to do in this type of medium. I'm not talking about large herds, unless you consider 15 deer per square mile and under large herds. This is far below the carrying capacity for the area, as was admitted by one of the Chief Biologists with NJ deer management program. This particular area of south Jersey that we were discussing, is outstanding farm habitat, and can support in excess of 50 deer per square mile with no adverse effects on forested tracts, but crop damage would be evident. I asked him why they were continuing the 2+ month gun season with no bag limits, even though he is aware of how low the deer density has fallen. He said he has many interests to consider, including the farmers and the Agricultrual Lobby. Basically, he admitted they are trying to reduce the herd to unnoticable numbers as a balancing act to keep everyone happy, everyone except hunters that is. They know we will keep buying licenses, so figure no matter what course they chart for the deer herd, they will still sell licenses because of the passion many of us hold for the activity.

This is not conjecture, it was from a discussion I had with the man on Saturday, January 12, 2003. Don't think it can't happen in Pa. You've no doubt heard the old metaphor about the camel getting his nose under the tent, haven't you. Well, right now we have the whole damn smelly animal in a little 2 man dome tent, it's collapsing around us and we can't get the flea bitten desert dancer out of the way. It should be the job of hunting organizations, like UBNJ, and UBP, or USP, to fight for hunters, not tow the line on F & W policies that have been drafted to appease other interest groups, they have their own lobbists fighting for them. Who speaks for hunters?

Like I said before, good luck, but don't be surprised if by the time you realize the two-humped wonder is fully entrenched in your little tent in the woods, it's too late to do anything about it.
-Proceed with caution
-Enter at your own risk
-Tread lightly
They all apply to the course that Pa has charted for deer management.



Edited by - NJ_Bowhntr on 01/15/2003 12:38:20

That is too low. I would fight any effort to reduce the herd below it's preferred carrying capacity. That isn't the maximum, but what is probably best known as cutural carrying capacity. In the big woods areas that is around 21 deer per square forested mile.

I hope to learn about the agricultural areas this summer with a Deer Tour 2003 in that type of area. If the browse is doing well in this type of area after a normal winter, then is the farmer being excessively hurt? But you would have to have 0 DPSM to stop all farm and auto losses. Right now, I believe the herd should be regulated based on the condition of the habitat only. But I will be all ears.

Yes, hunting organizations must stand up to game departments when they are protecting other than Mother Nature.

LOL Mark, you sound like me in 1995. I believed that there was no way the trained biologists with F & W would actually pursue a program that would intentionally take deer numbers so low, but they did and still are.

A typical square mile in the region I'm talking about has probably 350 to 450 acres of woods, with the remaining acreage being planted in corn, soybeans, apples, peaches, milo, string beans, alphalfa (sp?) and assorted row crops. The woodlands consist mostly of oaks, beech trees, maple, gum, wild cherry, persimmons, laurel and holly thickets, small pine thickets, swampy patches, and green briar and honey suckle tangles. There is more, but my point is that the habitat is awesome for deer, they just aren't allowed to live here any more.

I thought for sure that the few alarmists in 1995 who said F & W were working with the farmers and other groups in Trenton to eliminate the deer were surely wrong. I told them we had to trust those who are experts in the field of biology, they must know what they are doing. Well, they did know what they were doing, I just never thought that they would allow it to go so far. But they created a monster with all the doe tags and generous seasons, and now we cannot get it stopped.

How bad is it? Well, I've been hunting for 25 years, so even though I'm no expert, I'm not exactly a novice either. Last year was the worst seaosn I have had since I began in the late 1970's, until this year. I scout like mad, keep journals, record all my findings on enlarged topo maps and photos from hundreds, yes hundreds, of hours of winter and spring scouting and usually have most of my 35 portable stands placed by July. I keep about 10 available to take advantage of rapidly changing food sources, but the others are placed in travel corridors and funnnels that have, through years of experience, and or my winter and spring scouting, proven to be good locations for catching rutting activity. I have stands for every wind direction, yet last year I went out 18 times before seeing even one deer. This bow season started a little better, but went down hill quickly. I've been out hunting 42 times since November 15th, and seen deer 3 of those times, for a total of nine deer. My two brothers are not doing any better either. Two days after that last heavy snowfall I went scouting. After nearly 4 hours of walking, I had cut only two sets of tracks, and this is in an area the State biologists think we have too many deer, so the gun season remains over two months long with no bag limit.

I can remember when hunters were considered wildlife conservationists. Now, hunters and Biologists for the State of New Jersey seem more like wildlife exterminationists. Don't think it can't happen in Pa, I'm willing to bet a 7 day guided hunt in Ohio that it will. Do yourselves a favor and don't buy everything that Gary Alt or the PGC tell you, they have other things in mind than &quot;the health of the herd&quot; or hunters' best interests. I'm not saying he is a total liar, or even an uneducated dummy when it comes to deer, but I can assure you that he is being very 'Clintonesque' with what he IS telling you, and what he is NOT telling you.

And one more thing. Even though I have great respect for Charles Alshiemer and C.J.Winand, when they write things like &quot;you can't shoot too many does&quot;, or &quot;shoot every doe you see until you get scared, then shoot some more&quot;, they should qualify those words. Those types of philosophies work well for those who manage large acreage, and control the quality and number of hunters on that property. However, those are foolish commands for heavily hunted public lands and will get you into trouble quicker than a public make-out session with the bosses wife.

As for the PGC and Dr. Alt, keep them honest, be a skeptic, and believe what you see, not what they tell you you're seeing.

I hope to do that.