Turd,
We seem to be the only two on this site that share the same beliefs.
If you did visit the site mentioned in my previous post you would notice that it has many people supporting our ideas. As you are aware, Alt's quotes in the paper are there to get more on his side.
Even if he knew for a fact that the numbers of hunters opposed to his demise of the deer population was even as high as 90% he would still say the same quotes stating that he has many hunters on his side. Its a way of turning ignorant hunters into Alt followers.
Oh well we can only wait and see.
Happy hunting,
Mr.D

Funny, I hunted 5 counties this season and talked to dozens of hunters and didnt find a one who wanted to make Gary Alt's dentist rich. As a matter of fact, I talked to quite a few who had to let bucks walk that they said they would've shot in a minute last year and they ALL were looking forward to next year.

On the other hand, I hear that a few folks thought the automobile would never catch on, or for that matter the telephone, TV, computers etc. etc. etc. Heck, some caveman probably thought there was no use for fire when it was discovered!!

Member of NRA, BASS, Buckmasters and Life member of UBP.........Kill a big doe, Let the little bucks grow

Mr. D., Wisconsin does not have AR. Yet.

mhohag,
The area that they hunted was not public land and the owners/outfitters of the property have been using an AR program for the past several years. They too admit that although the quality of buck that they harvest has increased the quantity has decreased. They wanted to draw a hunter to their land in hopes of getting a trophy instead of an average or below average buck. The result after several years (I think 6) was far less deer but better quality bucks.
I'll say it again THIS IS NOT WHAT I WANT TO SEE HAPPEN HERE!!!
Sincerely,
MR.D


BTBowhunter

Read the posts by PA hunters on the site I mentioned 5 posts above this one. Im sure you'll find many Alt bashers.





Edited by - mr.d on 01/09/2003 19:31:23

If 5 men hunted a whole week and only shot a doe, I'd look at hunter skill first, the type of operation second, and the management plan third. The goals set for PA as far as herd numbeers and sex ratios will leave any hunter worth his salt with a lot more deer sightings than your buddies had. Who knows what that landowner did? Sounds like they didn't do their homework, and picked a lousy operation. What that has to do with PA I don't know.
Why is it so hard to believe that trained biologists, working in specific habitat units, won't be able to manage the herd better than a million "it's brown it's down" heroes? The only people saying that there'll be a B&C deer behind every bush, and monster bucks will be easy to come by, are the ones against Alt. Wonder why that is?
Alt isn't telling you what a "trophy" is, he's telling you what's legal, 3pts or better, just like the managers before him always told you, a spike or better. You'll have to decide what a trophy is yourself, all Alt can do is determine what's legal.
Like all "state" plans, it will do the hunters good to keep a close eye on this one, the new management units will help set harvest goals, doe tags, etc. Why not see how it works, and dare I say, get involved, before just bashing Alt?
Do you really want to hurt someone because they won't let you shoot that spiker every year?
Either way, you'll have to get used to it, this management is here to stay, most hunters approve of it, so it won't be changing anytime soon.



"In heaven, even the fish have antlers"

Alt and his team of biologists ( high school boyscouts, a few I personally know) should have done much more research years before implementing this plan. The county specific doe tag allocation is not fair because of both private land and public land being in the same counties. I agree that there are many places where the numbers are high but there are also areas in those counties where the numbers are very low. Increasing doe tags in such areas will cull the necessary numbers in the high deer density areas and DEVASTATE the population in low deer density areas of the same county. A better system of allocating doe tags should have been thought out before selling 80,000 more tags.

As far as the 5 hunters mentioned earlier. All are well skilled and and have harvested many PA deer with both gun and bow, I dont question their skills but do question the wisdom of the landowners where they hunted in Wisconsin.
Sincerely,
Mr.D

MR.D, it seems like a waste of time trying to talk sense to some people about how AR is not the way to go about getting bigger bucks. In my opinion most hunters that favor AR are the ones who only tag spikes & small crap-rack bucks in the first place. Alt played these hunters like a violin, that is all they ever see or shoot so of course they're in favor of AR & the slaughter of a huge amount of does. Well I for one don't shoot small bucks & every year seem to tag a decent rack buck. I think it is genetics,habitat & food. Plus it has to do with spending time in the woods. Most hunters ride around & spotlight a field starting around August. This is not scouting I don't own a spot light & wish the PGC would outlaw spotlighting all together. That is pretty much the extent of thier scouting, plus they are the ones who shot the first buck they seen & now are the ones complaining about letting the little ones go. I've never shot a spike, as a matter of fact only 3 of over 30 bucks(some out of state) would be illegal according to todays AR. I would bet you could build a camp with all the spikes these guys shot! But hey if your happy wiping out does(remember most does drop twins,that equals 1 buck) have at it. In the long run we hunters & our kids will pay the price for Alt's follies when the herd dwindles in size. What most people can't seem to see is he wants the doe herd knocked down, that equals fewer deer. As far as only the mature bucks will breed this to is false, as a biologist I'm sure he would know that when a doe is in heat it lasts 24 hours & a buck will not leave her. I would bet that while a buck is breeding a doe, other does will also be in heat & guess what happens? A smaller buck slides in & nails her. This guy is so full of it & sooner or later his lies will catch up with him. As for some hunters wanting to take bigger bucks, here's a novel idea...hunt somewhere else! Some places just don't produce big deer, try looking at the counties with 4 point AR's they produce racks & weight.

I CAN FEEL THE LOVE!!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>



<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I would personally like to punch his teeth out of his two-sided lying mouth<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Now that is the way to present your opinion! Should get all kinds of support with that attitude.

Mr. D and Turd, do you guys by chance belong to the Unified Sportsman of PA?

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

Big Country, no I do not belong to that organization. I have read that they to are opposed to Alt & his AR. I would back them up though because I feel the same way they do. All I'm saying is that Alt is lying about numbers & bigger bucks.This guy caved in to pressure from farmers,insurance co.'s & tree growers. I have friends who hunt the mountain counties of Pa. They have for years,used to see 50-60 deer a day now they see hardly any & these guys are skilled,hardcore hunters. For years Pa. has had one of the largest herds & harvests in the country,that is fact! Now all of the sudden the state can't support the herd? B.S. the herd has been the about the same according to PGC numbers for at least the past 10-15 years or so. Now let me cover my but, I'm not against doe hunting,they need harvested,but some areas don't hold the #'s of deer as others I think I'm correct in stating that. He is treating each area the same which is wrong.I work with a guy who applies for every doe tag possible,he usually shoots 3-4 deer a year, no one can eat that much meat.I have a family of 4, we donated 1 deer to the Share the Harvest Program,1 was given to a janitor at the mill I work for his family(which I do every year)& 2 were put in the freezer. I bring alot of burger in the mill for our crew cookouts,give some to my brothers,have a teenager who I think is a human garbage can(step on his foot & his mouth opens!)& we still have some meat left overe. The guy I mentioned above eats what he can & feeds the rest to his dogs! This makes me cringe why shoot an animal if you're not going to eat it? Simple-in his retarded mind (remember I work with this simpleton),if the tags are available & he's legal he'll shoot as many as he can! This is the kind of &quot;hunter&quot; Alt wants to attract. Legal yes,ethical,questionable in my mind! Another question that I have stated in earlier posts-what happened to the saying any deer is a trophy? My oldest son's first deer was a doe on Monday 2 years ago,I let him decide what to do-wait for a buck or shoot the first deer that presented a good shot.He wanted the first deer good shot scenerio.A doe stepped out at 80 yards & he got her talk about a proud dad I think I was more excited than he was! On the first Saturday that year I was at work & at 10:00a.m. I received acall from my youngest son,my boy shot a very large 8 pointer & my wife needed me to come home & dress it & drag it out.Proud yes but I was just as proud of the doe which is mounted over our T.V. next to his buck which I guess would score in the 130 class. Alt has hunters believing that with AR in place you'll get a chance at the biggest buck in your life.WRONG!!! Some guys will indeed shoot bigger bucks(here's where genetics,nutrition,habitat,&area come in to play,some guys will shoot 14-16 inch basket racked 8 pointers.Why? Because that is all the area is able to produce,except the occasional large buck that shows up.Nutrition in my mind is the key. Alt never talks about this,the deer here hit our fields hard some are planted just for the deer,& it shows.As stated before with AR in place as soon as the buck is legal he's dead! A 2 1/2 year old 8 point is not mature but he'll be just as dead as a 22&quot; 4 1/2 year old 8 point!You will indeed see an increase in bigger bucks,but what happens the following year,watching bucks walk waiting for next season when it's legal ro shoot them.In the long run the herd will shrink. Nobody here wants to talk about the use of slug guns,why is that? I'm a harcore rifle man myself but I think a slug gun season WILL produce bigger racks. I don't want to give up my rifle but if you want bigger bucks,slug gun only states seem to have them.What do you guys think about that?

Edited by - Turd Fergusen on 01/11/2003 08:02:19

Turd, I only have a couple of minutes right now, so I will not cover all of your points, but promise to come back later.

1. BTBowhunter lives close to me, been a good friend of mine for years. His family of 4 eats at least 7-8 deer annually. He can confirm this. His wife, and him can cook up up the best meals going with deer meat.

2. The PGC(Alt) has just made more management areas, will more special regs areas where deer densities are very high. And I am willing to bet that they are not done.
In fact, if the changes pass in the April meetings, my home hunting area will go to unlimited doe tags, NO Antler restrictions, and slugs only.

I want AR in my area, I want it dearly, but I will gladly try whatever Alt is proposing to try to get our herd in balance.

3. You mention slugs only in gun season. Read the preface in any B&C record book, and it will tell you that far and away the states that pump out the biggest B&C bucks are slug only. But I bet that the gun hunting community is going to howl at this change.

4. If Alt`s main goal was to eradicate the herd, he surely would not go to slugs only.


I am a bowhunter only, except for taking my flintlock for a stroll occasionally, so slugs only makes me happy. The buck harvest will drop with slugs only. This will allow bucks to age.

I`ll check back in later.

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA