What about bow reports?
02-26-2002, 02:19 PM
#1
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rural Town Oklahoma USA
Posts: 139
What about bow reports?
Let me preference this by saying that I am not making any accusations to any magazines or reporters, but I was thinking about a point that Frank raised regarding bow reports in magazines.
In my view, some have some merit, while some are close to worthless. For instance, in one well known magazine with a well known reviewer, the bows are actually put through their paces and conclusions are drawn. Some merit there, I would say. In another well known mag, the information presented in their "reports" is basically the same info anyone can find in the bow manufacturers' literature with some thoughts thrown in, nothing much more than that. Not exactly the type of "report" I am looking for. What do you guys think?
As to these boards and the reports presented here (i.e. Frank's recent experience, JeffB's and many others), I think they are great. They enlighten me to good and bad points of the bows in light of what the reviewers like/dislike in any bow and how that particular bow stood up to his/her criteria. I can read a report like that and really relate it all to my particular tastes. And, then I have the added bonus of being able to subsequently question the reviewer further if need be. Like I said, I think they are great. Keep 'em coming.
Well, I'm rambling. Just some of my thoughts. I am sure you guys have more to add.
Winger
In my view, some have some merit, while some are close to worthless. For instance, in one well known magazine with a well known reviewer, the bows are actually put through their paces and conclusions are drawn. Some merit there, I would say. In another well known mag, the information presented in their "reports" is basically the same info anyone can find in the bow manufacturers' literature with some thoughts thrown in, nothing much more than that. Not exactly the type of "report" I am looking for. What do you guys think?
As to these boards and the reports presented here (i.e. Frank's recent experience, JeffB's and many others), I think they are great. They enlighten me to good and bad points of the bows in light of what the reviewers like/dislike in any bow and how that particular bow stood up to his/her criteria. I can read a report like that and really relate it all to my particular tastes. And, then I have the added bonus of being able to subsequently question the reviewer further if need be. Like I said, I think they are great. Keep 'em coming.
Well, I'm rambling. Just some of my thoughts. I am sure you guys have more to add.
Winger
02-26-2002, 02:57 PM
#2
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: What about bow reports?
I think my feelings on the subject were pretty clear before I edited them from my bow report...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Norb's column is very technical and very informative. If you can read between the lines a little bit then you can understand where he is coming from with each bow. I didn't read his most recent report on the Oneida but I am sure his feelings aren't too hard to find...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
As for the ones in Petersen's....I think of them sort of like "infomercials"...the author presents all the good points of the bow.....but it is up to the reader to find the bad ones....
Norb's column is very technical and very informative. If you can read between the lines a little bit then you can understand where he is coming from with each bow. I didn't read his most recent report on the Oneida but I am sure his feelings aren't too hard to find...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
As for the ones in Petersen's....I think of them sort of like "infomercials"...the author presents all the good points of the bow.....but it is up to the reader to find the bad ones....
02-26-2002, 03:28 PM
#3
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Heaven IA USA
Posts: 2,597
RE: What about bow reports?
Winger I see both sides to the dilemma. Publishers would be fools to cut their own throats.
That being said half the time I don't even bother reading a bow report in a magazine for the simple fact it doesn't really tell me anything that I can't find in the manufacturer's brochure. I can even stomach some brand bias as long as the facts presented are truthful. I applaud Five Shot, Jeff B., Matt Pa, Pa Bowhntr, and others on here who simply state the facts. I think the best part is listing the Positives AND the negatives in the product, then leave the personal preference up the the reader.
Of course we will always have likes and dislikes, that is part of life and makes things interesting. It is true to some extent that one man's junk can be another man's treasure. But don't pee down my back and tell me it's raining. That is very insulting...not to mention I'm not into that golden shower thingy. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
That being said half the time I don't even bother reading a bow report in a magazine for the simple fact it doesn't really tell me anything that I can't find in the manufacturer's brochure. I can even stomach some brand bias as long as the facts presented are truthful. I applaud Five Shot, Jeff B., Matt Pa, Pa Bowhntr, and others on here who simply state the facts. I think the best part is listing the Positives AND the negatives in the product, then leave the personal preference up the the reader.
Of course we will always have likes and dislikes, that is part of life and makes things interesting. It is true to some extent that one man's junk can be another man's treasure. But don't pee down my back and tell me it's raining. That is very insulting...not to mention I'm not into that golden shower thingy. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
02-26-2002, 05:28 PM
#4
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 3,058
RE: What about bow reports?
Thanx for the comps folks
As far as Norb goes, Frank hit the nail on the head..you have to read between the lines..he will often word something to sound positive and underlying that statement is the negative aspect.
He's quite a fan of "odd" but funtional designs like Oneidas and Darton's CPS..his tastes are very far from mainstream, so you have to take it w/ a grain fo salt as well.
Bill Winke, Jay Strangis,and Greg Tinsley USED to give fairly decent reports back in the early to mid-90's..but I think it's pitifully obvious now that even they are constrained by funds that could come out of their budget.
Emery Loiselle used have some decent reports in B&A Hunting magazine..but in the last few years he did them,it was obvious from his writing he was not quite "with it" anymore...lot's of mistakes, mis-information, etc..
I'll be the first one to admit I have some bias in my reports..I usually have to like a bow in the first place to purchase it. Were the bows given to me, and there would be no reprecussions for writing what I feel, then there would be no bias.
Frank's review was very good! He was clear up-front about what he personally likes and dislikes, made distinction between fact and opinion about the product, and then summarized why he thought it was a great bow, but not a great bow for HIM. Textbook example of how a review should be written for any product.
and he had lot's of cool PICs! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
JeffB
As far as Norb goes, Frank hit the nail on the head..you have to read between the lines..he will often word something to sound positive and underlying that statement is the negative aspect.
He's quite a fan of "odd" but funtional designs like Oneidas and Darton's CPS..his tastes are very far from mainstream, so you have to take it w/ a grain fo salt as well.
Bill Winke, Jay Strangis,and Greg Tinsley USED to give fairly decent reports back in the early to mid-90's..but I think it's pitifully obvious now that even they are constrained by funds that could come out of their budget.
Emery Loiselle used have some decent reports in B&A Hunting magazine..but in the last few years he did them,it was obvious from his writing he was not quite "with it" anymore...lot's of mistakes, mis-information, etc..
I'll be the first one to admit I have some bias in my reports..I usually have to like a bow in the first place to purchase it. Were the bows given to me, and there would be no reprecussions for writing what I feel, then there would be no bias.
Frank's review was very good! He was clear up-front about what he personally likes and dislikes, made distinction between fact and opinion about the product, and then summarized why he thought it was a great bow, but not a great bow for HIM. Textbook example of how a review should be written for any product.
and he had lot's of cool PICs! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
JeffB
02-26-2002, 07:35 PM
#5
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern PA USA
Posts: 1,398
RE: What about bow reports?
This is a very, very good post, Winger. I give it 4 1/2 stars!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
The only thing I can't figure out is why I keep buying the #%$# magazines in the first place.<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle>
Avoid the inevitable until it is absolutely unavoidable!
The only thing I can't figure out is why I keep buying the #%$# magazines in the first place.<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle>
Avoid the inevitable until it is absolutely unavoidable!
02-26-2002, 10:42 PM
#7
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 520
RE: What about bow reports?
In any given year there are hundreds of bows available, and only a few of them get reviewed, particularly considering the overlap. On that basis the mags can be forgiven for picking the ones their reader's will most likely be obsessing about. In most cases those aren't going to be bad bows.
Saying something bad about a bow isn't necesarily any more objective than saying something good. A lot of the more technical information in the better written articles is irrelevant anyway. You might find some of it so because you have a very different draw length; don't trust the synthetic stats part; don't care all that much about efficiency one way or another within a range of 1-2%, and so on.
One of the problems with bows is that there isn't, and isn't likely to be a way of assessing accuracy, or shootability. There is the Hooter, but what that means to someone stuck holding the bow is hard to say (I am sure it could diagnose quality).
I like it when a reviewer relates a bow to a trend. Why do we need short bows? Why do we need fast bows? or whatever. Also if they tell me when a product is hot. I may not want it, but it helps you seperate the top five options or whatever.
Norb did a great Q2 Q2XL review last year that said a lot, and gave you a sense why the two close models existed.
Saying something bad about a bow isn't necesarily any more objective than saying something good. A lot of the more technical information in the better written articles is irrelevant anyway. You might find some of it so because you have a very different draw length; don't trust the synthetic stats part; don't care all that much about efficiency one way or another within a range of 1-2%, and so on.
One of the problems with bows is that there isn't, and isn't likely to be a way of assessing accuracy, or shootability. There is the Hooter, but what that means to someone stuck holding the bow is hard to say (I am sure it could diagnose quality).
I like it when a reviewer relates a bow to a trend. Why do we need short bows? Why do we need fast bows? or whatever. Also if they tell me when a product is hot. I may not want it, but it helps you seperate the top five options or whatever.
Norb did a great Q2 Q2XL review last year that said a lot, and gave you a sense why the two close models existed.
03-01-2002, 06:26 AM
#9
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: What about bow reports?
Jeff-
No offense, but let me fill you in about Emery Loiselle. The man has forgotten more than you or I will ever claim to know about the technical side of archery, I am sure of that. I have personally picked his brain on many occasions and learned much. He is admittedly getting "up there" in age and isn't quite as "spry" (good word, I think) as he used to be, but his knowledge far exceeds ANYONE who posts on this board IMO.(unless Norb comes in of course, and even then, it would be close, IMO) I have over 30+ years invested into this sport, and cannot hold a candle to his overall knowledge, tho I try. He may not be as "with it" as he used to be, but it has nothing to do with the man's overall knowledge of the sport and character, and should not be misinterpreted as such. (Felt I had to clarify that <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) I think you also hit a great point about the funding for such reports and feel that this could be part of the case for lesser detail amongst different authors, especially with smaller publications. Norb no doubt has some decent funding behind him, therefore he can afford to make a much more lengthy evaluation.
I feel that both yours and Franks' "reports" are well versed and have non-biased opinions and info, and you both should be commended for this.(good jobs!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) Unfortunately, I feel this may also start a "trend" with everyone coming up with a so-called "report" about everything just to say they did, and realistically they will be doing essentially what we are currently doing anyway on the boards--- giving our opinions, with no technical "reporting" of anything other than our opinion.(and this of course will be biased with some people) Unless we measure tolerances, speeds, hysteresis, draw force curves, etc, for a "technical report" in addition to giving an opinion and simple specs of a product, aren't we not simply doing what we were doing anyway with the messageboards and posts, without all of the "flash"? Don't get me wrong, I liked your "reports", but realistically I feel we should leave the "full" technical reports to those that have expertise in this field and are paid to do them, and stick to giving our opinions about products in posts about them as discussed.This will eliminate any "false statements" or "biased info" or any other mis-interpretation that could come from these "full reports" if everyone starts doing them. Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12
No offense, but let me fill you in about Emery Loiselle. The man has forgotten more than you or I will ever claim to know about the technical side of archery, I am sure of that. I have personally picked his brain on many occasions and learned much. He is admittedly getting "up there" in age and isn't quite as "spry" (good word, I think) as he used to be, but his knowledge far exceeds ANYONE who posts on this board IMO.(unless Norb comes in of course, and even then, it would be close, IMO) I have over 30+ years invested into this sport, and cannot hold a candle to his overall knowledge, tho I try. He may not be as "with it" as he used to be, but it has nothing to do with the man's overall knowledge of the sport and character, and should not be misinterpreted as such. (Felt I had to clarify that <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) I think you also hit a great point about the funding for such reports and feel that this could be part of the case for lesser detail amongst different authors, especially with smaller publications. Norb no doubt has some decent funding behind him, therefore he can afford to make a much more lengthy evaluation.
I feel that both yours and Franks' "reports" are well versed and have non-biased opinions and info, and you both should be commended for this.(good jobs!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) Unfortunately, I feel this may also start a "trend" with everyone coming up with a so-called "report" about everything just to say they did, and realistically they will be doing essentially what we are currently doing anyway on the boards--- giving our opinions, with no technical "reporting" of anything other than our opinion.(and this of course will be biased with some people) Unless we measure tolerances, speeds, hysteresis, draw force curves, etc, for a "technical report" in addition to giving an opinion and simple specs of a product, aren't we not simply doing what we were doing anyway with the messageboards and posts, without all of the "flash"? Don't get me wrong, I liked your "reports", but realistically I feel we should leave the "full" technical reports to those that have expertise in this field and are paid to do them, and stick to giving our opinions about products in posts about them as discussed.This will eliminate any "false statements" or "biased info" or any other mis-interpretation that could come from these "full reports" if everyone starts doing them. Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12
03-01-2002, 06:55 AM
#10
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 3,058
RE: What about bow reports?
PW12,
My comments regard Mr. Loiselle were not intended to be derogatory whatsoever, I was simply commenting on how his reports in the last couple of years he did them were not up to his previous quality.
JeffB
My comments regard Mr. Loiselle were not intended to be derogatory whatsoever, I was simply commenting on how his reports in the last couple of years he did them were not up to his previous quality.
JeffB