I know I'm sticking my nose in here ,but I feel I must not allow you to make Rob look like someone he's not. His main problem with you shooting BB is that you left your 1000 acre property to do it. You didn't kill those deer on your own land you allowed your BB population to survive. You deliberately went on public land and killed 5 BB's. That is what Rob was criticizing.

http://pgchallofshame.com/news/news19.htm

LP, Alhough we have found some common ground here lately I don't think Jim Slinsky is an unbiased kinda writer.

I like to look at both sides. I was more interested in the stories. There is truth to the site.Even got the Madl story and the 33 mil lawsuit one allso.But it does seem to leaning towards the buy off of the PGC.If they are not goanna stand up for their main investors,Maybe it's time to get rid of them? I could care less about slinky there.

Livbucks, I've changed my mind a little on this. I think that junior hunters should be allowed to harvest 3 inch spikes like the old laws were. But at what age does the junior license change over? I'm not sure what it is without digging out the Pa hunting guide. I say up to 16 is a good age, by this time they've either developed a love of hunting or haven't. I still don't see why a Military person should have the exemption though. I have the utmost respect for anyone who serves in our armed forces and I think they all deserve to be treated better than they are in this country. But it doesn't make sense to me that the AR rule shouldn't apply to all adults. I know it probably has something to do with them being active and not getting the same amount of time to hunt. And it has nothing to do with jelousy. I haven't shot spikes in alot of years before the rules changed.

Trykon, to answer your question,Junior licenses are through age 16

Thanks Bob for catching that one,

TRYK....I don't think it's a good idea to try to teach a youngster how to cleanly take a buck and have him/her have to worry about AR. Just makes sense to me that during those formative first four years that they should have every opportunity to wet their appetite on buck hunting. The difference in maturity from 12 to 16 is tremendous. Kids basically go from babes to adults in that span of time. After 16, it is not uncalled for to ask them to abide by the same standards as everyone else. They can drive a car, they can now hunt alone. They are expected to be more astute in their approach to life in general. The actual sub AR kill of junior hunters is very statistically insignificant, but the psychological boost in morale to a young hunter, knowing he has the full opportunity at virtually every buck he will see, is off the charts.
Everyone complains about AR but I will tell you one thing: I seldom see a sub AR these days. Lower deer numbers has equated to a more healthy herd and better bucks overall. Almost every 1.5 year old I see is an 8 point anymore. Here is mine from a couple weeks ago from wmu 2F.


I thought he was a 2.5 year old when looking at him, but he is clearly a 1.5. I took him because I needed a good first specimen for learning taxidermy. I would have normally passed him because I know for a fact that with AR in place, I have a better than ever chance of getting THIS!



My brother's buck that he took within a quarter mile from me and about a half an hour later. Let me add that these were taken second day on public ground: heavily hunted, rumored deerless.

I would like to offer a perspective from a former PA resident on a few items in this particular thread. I have hunted in PA for 33 years since I was 14. I moved to DE 26 years ago when I got married.
1. I would pay more for a hunting license as long as the increase were reasonable and as long as a resident license would increase to a more realistic amount. Let's face it, $20 is a bargain considering the rate of inflation over the years and the low fee increases over that time span. I've been pushing here in DE for a fee increase as I feel $14 is too low for what is required to run DNREC. I'd gladly pay up to $50 If it would help better the hunting.
2. If the fee goes too high for non-residents, the economic loss from folks not coming to PA affects not only the PGC, but many small towns.Particularly in counties bordering other states. I once read an article that stated that in Coudersport, Potter County, many local businesses generated 80 to 90% of their yearly income during Bear and Deer season with half of that amount coming from non-residents.
3. Regarding Kids and Hunting - Someone in this thread hit the nail on the head with the statement, "Kids want instant gratification" Hunting takes patience. Many kids today don't have patience. I have often stated that I thought the ruination of youth today is cable TV and video games. I used to coach Little League Baseball. I was amazed at the number of kids who would come to me during a game asking to be taken out of the game 'cause they were tired, it was hot, they were bored,they wanted a hot dog etc. These kids are not interested in anything that takes any kind of physical effort.
4. Loss of habitat - Not just for the deer, but places to hunt. The biggest problem here in DE is development. I've lost 3 places to hunt over the years due to development. And I know the problem exists in PA as well. I hunted for 20 years in Berks Co. at my uncle's hunting camp. Farmers sold off land, other landowners started posting their property. Now, half of the mountain that we used to hunt is gone and I had to find a new place to hunt in PA.
5. When the doe season was the 3 days after buck season was over, it was a pain in the behind for several reasons. Not as many hunters in the woods moving the deer. Not enough vacation time left without sacrificing days for buck season. Another trip back and forth to deer camp.
5. My last point is a rhetorical question. How do you keep hunters of all ages interested in hunting?
I killed a spike when I was 14. My first year. It took me 12 years to kill another buck. (In DE) It took me 32 years to kill my second PA buck. I got another PA buck this year. I believe that this due directly to AR.
The question is/are:
Do you want to go back to the "good ole days" of seeing 75 or 100 deer in a week and not seeing a legal buck of any size?
Or do we want a balanced healthy herd?

The fact is, if the deer herd is managed properly, you will not see 75 to 100 deer in a week. However, I do think that the PGC has gone overboard with the excessive doe harvest. It's not hopeless. We'll keep hammering our elected officials till they hear us. But you can't give up.

Let me add to my last post that these were taken second day on public ground: heavily hunted, rumored deerless.

Them are nice deer livbucks. But I must say though,That most my bucks that I have takin are around and some was bigger before the AR program. Never shot one smaller than a 6er.