RE: baiting deer in Pa
 

"If you cut much more than 1%a year you'll eventually end up with a bunch of pole timber that's worthles as wildlife habitat."

Doug, you above all people, with all your PGC contacts and unequivical knowledge and Game Land tour experience should CERTAINLY be aware that the agency has consistantly (over the last SEVERAL years) cut little more than .5% or 1/2%.
By not cutting a full 1% the agency has effectively denied themselves of some $10 Million + Dollars a year. And that has occured each year, every year for the past SEVERAL YEARS. Just think about how much money the agency would have in reserve if it had met it's stated goal of 1%. That sir, is a lot of money LOST! Unrecoverable!

Also, it would not end up as "a bunch Pole Timber" if they would practice Habitat IMPROVEMENT (IMPROVEMENT being the KEY term)by planting various shrubs and trees beneficial to Game and Wildlife. That's a basic premis of Habitat Improvement.
And yes, they may have to tube these newly introduced shrubs and trees.

Just for your bank of personal kowledge, (and please feel free to inform your PGC contacts) I have attended a Game Lands Tour. I toured Gamelands #12 and #36 two years ago. There were a few exclosures that left me unimpressed. The problem facing Land Managers is lack of manpower and old equipment. That particularLand Manager had some 65,000 + acres to manage and work and he only had 4 or 5 people to do it. Not early enough.
I wonder if you know how many acres of landDCNR Land Managers oversee and how many workers they have per unit?
I might add that DCNR achived their stated harvest goal. How do you explain that?

If the agencycut the stated goal figure they would have one heck of a lot more operating money. That cannot be denied! So the next question is Why would the PGC deny themselves of $10 Million Dollars, consistantly for several years running? That's a whole lot of cash still standing in those Game Lands Woods.

RE: baiting deer in Pa
 

Sproulman,there are many remote areas with pour access and very few deer.Hunters are not killing those deer.If they aren't,who is?You are beyond clueless if you think that the habitat doesn't effect the productivity of fawns.It's a basic premis of deer management.The PGC examines road-killed does in the the spring to determine how many fawns are bred and how many embryos they have.In the northern tier,very few fawns are pregnant because they can't reach the required weight by fall and the amount of multiple births is down.In fact the one land manager stated that he never cut open a doe and foend triplets.That's directly related to habitat quaity and it was severly compounded by the winters of 2003 and 2004.Recruitment was up last year and it will be up again this year.If that keeps up and we have a few more mild winters,you may be able to see some deer once again during hunting season.That is,if poachers and mountain lions don't get them all.

Crazy horse,You are correct about the amount of timber that's been cut.They probably should step it up but it takesmanpower to manage it correctly.Not all of their cuts are done for commercial profit.Many of them are done with vary little monetary value.That takes money and manpower.Planting trees and shrubs sounds all warm and fuzzy but the truth is,they shouldn't have to.They should be able to getadequate,preferred regeneration without planting.Besides,who's going to pay for the plants and the manpower?Ontop of that,they need to fence most clearcuts in the northern tier for several years because of the deer.that also costs money so the profit margin isn't that great.On top of that and I'bve said this before,the habitat on the game lands around hereis much better than the state forests and most of the private land because they do have guys working on them 12 months of the year.What do we do about the 90% ofland that isn't game lands?

I did have the figure on how many foresters and employees DCNR had.I forget the exact number but they have far more manpower per acre than the PGC has.Are you saying DCNR is doing a good job managing the state forests?You're right,there is alot of money standing in those woods.That money will still be there when they cut it.They didn't lose anything.I've also seen exclosure that left me unimpressed as well.This is a complicated issue and there's a ton offactors effecting regeneration.Not every spot will regnerate successfully with or without the deer.However,the majority of excloures in this part of the state show that without a doubt,the deer are the limiting factor at this point.It's undeniable.

You're answer to everything is how poor of a job the PGC is doing.They should cut more of this and plant more of that.I agree they should do more in a perfect world.However,they have very limited resources and a host of factors to deal with.The facts are as clear as day,that the deer are the limiting factor effecting regeneration in the northern tier.They have reams of evidence to prove it and they'll show it to anyone.It's also undeniable that many areas are starting to respond to lower deer densities.You can whine and cry all you want about the big bad PGC and your lack of deer sightings.I could care less.I'll continue to scout and hunt the best areas of the game lands and state forests with dmap tags in hand.I'll have a full freezer of deer once again this year and for the first time in my life,I'll be able to add a couple more from an areawherehunters never been able to hunt before.That 10square mile area will be open for the first time because of myself,our district forester for DCNR and a forester from the US forest service.We wereable to show scientific evidence proving the deer were destroying the ecosystem in a 10 square mile area.We were laughed at and told a hunt would never happen here.Fortunately,reasoning and common sense prevailed,giving 120 hunters a chance to hunt some prime property.Along the way,alot of people were educated on the effects of a deer herd that was too big for the habitat.It's funny that you keep throwing this up in my face.this was a project that took about 2.5 years to complete and alot of hunters will benefit as a result.It was no easy task and I wasn't confident that this would happen.Yep,I'll get a chance to hunt deer this year at ridiculous deer densities but none of my obsevations are based on this area.I'll hunt 2 or three other dmap properties in state forests this year because my two dmap tags in Treasure lake will be filled by the first friday of archery season.I'll put money on that.The rest of my season will be spent in the big woods like I've done for the past 26 years.

RE: baiting deer in Pa
 

doug, i cant stand a person like you ,with lack of deer,going out with bag full of d-map tags to get a doe or fawn when the future for kids is in danger because of people like you.as you said, a FREEZER full when others dont even see a deer or pass up shooting a fawn, then you come along and get your FREEZER full. i see where you are coming from now.YOUR MANAGEMENT PLAN IS TO fill your freezer.

RE: baiting deer in Pa
 

Quite the alarmist there! :(

Seems Doug can find the deer, are you saying there aren't huntable numbers?

ChuckS

RE: baiting deer in Pa
 

"You're right,there is alot of money standing in those woods.That money will still be there when they cut it.They didn't lose anything."

Doug, your statement that the money will still be there is misleading. How long will it be there before it begins to rot?

How long will the agency wait to recover these vast, self inflicted losses?
It's been several years now and still counting. Just when do you surmise they will begin to cut at 1%?

As far as some of the timber not being usable for board foot, well theres always pulp. They pay for that you know.

No matter how you cut it the PGC is a poor manager of their/our holdings.

You are also correct in your statement;
"Not every spot will regnerate successfully with or without the deer."
Well, that's reason enough to introduce shrubs and trees beneficial to Game and Wildlife and do a little liming.

Not all of us live in the areas we hunt or even close to them. Some of us drive hundreds of miles to a camp we maintain at considerable expense. I might add that we also defray your cost for electric power. If we didn't, your electric bill would skyrocket!

You'd think differently if you had a camp a couple hundred miles away from home.

Oh, don't forget to post photos of your exploits and kills this coming deer season.

RE: baiting deer in Pa
 

I can't stand a guy like you either that constantly spreads mistruths and has no facts to back them up.I definately hunt with the intent on killing something.That's a primary purpose for being out there and that's why they call it hunting.I don't kill fawns by the way.I will continue to kill a buck every year and I'll continue to harvest does where there's plenty of them or where the regneration isn't where it should be.If i knew of an area where there where no deer and the habitat was still good,I wouldn't shoot a doe there.So far,I haven't found a place like that.It boggles my mind that people continue to hunt where they say there's no deer.I'm not complaining about a lack of deer so why should I not shoot any?If other hunters don't have the skills or the ambition to actually find where the deer are,why should that dictate how I hunt?

The future for our kids is at stake because of people like you.People that refuse to look at the facts and learn to understand why herd reductions where necessary.Without good habitat,the future of hunting is definately at stake.Every time I kill a deer,I know I'm helping out the local situationand I feel no guilt pulling the trigger.Remember Sproulman,I'm not the one crying about no deer.I see plenty of deerfrom I80 all the way north to Sinnemahonin and al the way to Wyoming county.

The people that are crying about no deer and spreading stupid conspiracy theories about the PGC are the one's hurting the future of hunting.The guys writing their democratic legislatures are hurting the future of hunting.The ill-informed legislatures that refuse to grant a fee increase to the PGC are hurting the future of hunting.The guys telling their kids how bad the hunting compared to 20 years ago are hurting the future of hunting.The guys trying to sue the PGC are hurting the future of hunting.I have an 8 year old daughter that goes in the woods with me all the time.She helps me find stand sites and hang stands.She helps mescout for new areas to hunt and to hang trail cameras.She can spot preffered deer food and good habitat better than most adults that have been hunting all their lives.She knows what a browseline looks like and she knows the best place to sit on opening day isn't where you can see for hundreds of yards.I don't know if she's gonna hunt or not but she'll know what it takes if you expect to successful.She also understands why it's important to hunt and balance the herd with the habitat.These are all basic things that all the whining,crying, self centered hunters who are constantly complaining about the PGC don't understand.There's an old saying,you can't teach what you don't know and you can't lead where you won't go.If hunters don't understand the basic principles of deer and habitat management,how are they going to instill that into their kids.You're correct that the future of hunting istrouble.Instead of teaching kids to be good stewarts of the land,guys like you do nothing but complain and bash the very agency that'sresponsible for managing all of this states wildife.You,the USP and the state's best sportsman,Mr Slinsky all make me sick.

RE: baiting deer in Pa
 

crazy horse,I rarely take pictures of the game I shoot and if I did,I wouldn't know how to post them.You can come over for some backstraps anytime though.I still have a few packs left.Thanks for defraying my electric bill.I really appreciate.

I got a few figures for you.The northcentral region has 6 timber markers to cover 10 counties.Now you tell me they enough manpower.

You talk about timber standing to rot.Some of the big oak trees can live another hundered years.Maybe you didn't know it butacorns are a valuable food source for deer and a variety of other wildlife.Some oak trees can live to be 200-300 years old.

Simply cuttingthe timber isn't going to do anything in many areas.At this point invasive species such as hayscented ferns,beech,birch and striped maple are taking over many areas.Much of the gamelands were private holding that were sold to the PGC for a small price.Much of this property was high graded before the PGC aquired it and the invasive species take overwhen an area is cut.After a cut,these areas need to be treated and fenced in order to get preffered brwose species.This all cost money and it takes professionals to do it right.It's not as simple as you and many other make it seem and there isn't always a huge profit in it either because of the steps they take to ensure it will be suitable habitat in the future.The PGC could do alotmore but they need additional funding as well as additional manpower and equitment.All you guys that went crying to the state reps asking them to handcuff the PGC by not granting a fee increase just bit your nose off to spite your face.The very things you want the PGC to do,can't be done without additional funding.You guys have no idea what you're talking about.

RE: baiting deer in Pa
 

doug,well, all we hunters do is complain,yes, but no one listens,i thought you would but you are not interested, i guess.i just got thru today talking to lynn swann office. i told him the ONLY way for him to even have chance to win against rendell is if he gets active on this DEER ERADICATION PROGRAM.oh, by way, i just got call that penn state is going to spend a ton of money,GRANTS FROM FORESTRY AND FLOWER LOVERS, on another study. they are going to study sproul forest with gps and log computers and survey the different FLOWERS that are in woods and ones that should be in woods.they are only going to study flowers that DEER EAT.hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

RE: baiting deer in Pa
 

Doug,
That was a first-class rant and I'm impressed. I hope everyone understands that you don't have the faintest understanding of timber economics.
There is an optimum time to harvest each species. If trees are not harvested in that period, then when they are finally harvested, the return is not optimized and the potential revenues(including the interest that would be earned on those revenues)are lost forever.
One big reason the PGC is in fiscal trouble is their long term failure, unlike other agencies,to harvest timber at optimal times.
If you don't understand this thenI don't think you are playing with a full deck!

RE: baiting deer in Pa
 

Normally I'd be against this, however the special regs areas are a whole different ball game. They are overpopulated and underhunted. There's so many car accidents around the spec regs areas too. The PGC is a management agency, and by allowing baiting in these SR areas, it's a good way to manage the unhealthy population. You have to ask yourself, would you rather have hired sharpshooters, or hunters baiting deer?