WOW why didnt you help feed them ??????? Thats one of the problems .Hunters to cheap to plani food plots or do anything past buying a license. I know Momma needs a new dress or vacation.I say to my wife ,tough I am spending the money to help the deer.She dont like it she can leave. i will quit hunting if it only means kill and dont put back.I am disabled and this past year I planted 1 acre myself on my knees and never shot a deer,because the population is down. Other years in the past I spent over 1000 dollars feeding them over winter and took the food out to them on a sled and pulled it along on my knees in the snow.that the dedication we need from both hunters and the PGC

Some have missed the point of HR: If deer numbersare keptin balance with their habitat(available naturalfood sources) in the first place, they'll seldom need to be artificially fed, even during severe weather conditions.

Just asa farmer cannot long sustain a herd of cattle on insufficient pasture or with insufficient hay production without breaking himself financially, a deer herd cannot exist indefinitely at numbers beyond insufficient browse.

The farmer will eventuallybe forced to sell-off some of his cattle; deer will justeventually eat themselves out of "house and home" if allowed to grow to too great a number for their habitat. Or in many cases, cause problems by seeking food elsewhere at the expense of their human neighbors.

Why didn't I feed them?Well first of all,we have several hundred thousand acres of overbrowsed state forests to deal with.How would I get to them?Second,you shouldn't have to feed them.There habitat and the herd should be balanced so that they can survive a hard winter.Third,I run a business and the costs of doing business and feeding my family take presedence over feeding the deer in an overbrowsed enviroment.

Doug,you misunderstood my post which is my fault because I didn't explain very well.
First off I'm not saying there's alot of food in 2G.I'm saying the hunters who are reporting less deer are correct and not just whiners like some stated.
Here's where I confused you.I was using two different places in my last post.One area is where I do most of my deer hunting now.That's in 2E on private land open to hunting which is a mixture of farms,woodlots,old strippings,and the beginning of the big woods.This is where I said the food supply is good.This also is an area that has seen drastic cuts in the deer population via hunting.In the beginning it was rated at 38DPSM .
Then there's the places in 2G where I hunt bear,turkey,and grouse.This is what I was talking about when I said the regen I'm seeing is mostly beech,cherry,and maple.In most of these places the deer numbers are low.I was hunting Parker dam the first year of the bonus tags.We saw over twenty deer that day and I'll tell ya what,those guys in there cleaned house.I can see where you thought I was contradicting myself by saying there was plenty of food yet not good regen in oaks.Two different areas-my mistake.
I think where you and RSB disagree with me is how places like 2G arrived at the low deer numbers.I feel herd reduction was the main culprit where it seems you guys think poor habitat and harsh winters are the main reason.It's too ironic that the numbers dropped after a few years of herd reduction.Man those first two years it sounded like a war!Basically it seems where hunters have the access the deer have been hammered.Our local paper just had an article about this.
In places like treasure lake and others that don't have the hunting pressure aren't the deer numbers still high?I know greenwood road still has good numbers but then again it's all posted.
I won't say the lack of mast crops,bad winters and coyotes aren't a factor.But I've seen worse winters then this and never witnessed a drop in the populations like we're having now.
Then there's the state forests in the southern counties like Perry.The tusc st forest has some very low deer populations yet the winters aren't near as bad as 2G.Herd reduction took those numbers that low.I was grouse hunting in there two years ago in the second season.Very little deer sign yet acorns left over everywhere.The mast was there but there weren't enough deer to eat it.

Doug we will never balance the deer with the habitate as long as all the development continues. private land is developed ,deer pushed to public land and the problem becomes a steam roller. In the future with all the pressure if we dont generate food the deer herd will have to be so low it wont be worth hunting. Development must be stopped and all gamelands available must be put in to agriculture.I get so sick of the attitude the deer must be lowered when the food source can be expanded.One reason I am leaving Pa. I lived and hunted in 5 states and Pa PGC is the worst I seen as far as working with the hunters. They act like they are the only answer and everyone else is stupid.And they dont even hunt public lands.
We can learn from other states ,,the earth dont stop at our borders, Example When I bought my land in South Texas. I had to many deer .But in that region I was only allowed 2 does. I called the GC.A warden cameto visit .He said yes i can see your herd is to big,He spent the wholeday with me. Conclusion the law says 2 doe in this area.But you own the land and it is behind a gate ,not fenced.No land owner /hunter will over kill his herd or their hunting land would be useless. We aint lookin shoot what you think needs to be taken

Cardeer,you and I live in two different worlds.You live in a more urban enviroment and I have no doubt what you say about development is true.I live in Rural Clearfield county.I'm surrounded by thousnads of acres of moshannon state forest.The habitat is terrible and there was far too many deer for the habitat to support.I can't possibly feed all the deer under these conditions.

Germain,I agree 100% that we killed alot of those deer and hunters helped reduce the herd.However,I saw the dead deer with my own twoeyes after2004.Two back to back brutal winters with no mast crop devistated therecruitment rates in this area and killed alot of deer.

I'm very familiar with parker dam.In fact I killed a doe off of tyler road on the first day of archery this year.Deer numbers are down there but they've been downbefore herd reductions.You're correct about the beech and other junk growing in that area.Anything of value is out of the reach of the deer.In the late 80's and early 90's,I'm sure that place had a ton of deer from that tornado.That growth is 20 years old now and out of the deers reach.It simply can't support the deer it did 15 years ago.Because the deer had alot of cover after that tornado,they overpopulated the area and destroyed the woods around the blowdowns.That's some of the most pathetic habitat in the state,unless you like ferns.

I see where you're coming from but I have no guilt shooting doe in that area.The numbers will go up again but unless there's browse,we'll go through this cycle again,with or without high antlerless allocations.

Doug,is the regen you're seeing in the Mosh?

Doug, you bring up very good points, almost convincing I really think that a little more time will tell, finally there was a better crop this year in the 2g area along with a not so bad winter. I say another season or two and maybe we'll know better the deal with the current herd there!!As of now I believe the current WMUs' are too large and mixed with types of habitat.


Doug by the way, totally off the topic, but being you know the parker dam area, do you at all go to SGL 93, and if so have any grouse flushes???


Again don't mean to digress, just thought I'd ask while thinking of it!!

Germain,I am seeing excellent regeneration on Moshannon state forest but most of it is near the boyscout camparound Penfield.I was up there in feb and the oakregeneration looked like mountain laurel and the stump sprouts on the stumps cut two years ago where all about 5ft tall.That area got hammered when HR started and the regen is unreal.What's interesting is that when the did a shelter wood cut about 5-6 years ago,there isn't a stump sprout to be found in that area.I don't have a figure for the deer density at that time but we hunted that areaduring the first year of AR and my buddy hadthree groups of deer come by him by 10:00 am and they totaled over 50 deer.They weren't the same deer either because they all came from the same direction.Last yearI spent two months in that area scouting and hunting for turkeys and saw one der the whole time and very little sign.I'd like to show you some of these areaswhen you come back up.

Four sox,I'm veryfamiliar with SGL 93.I don't hunt that arealike I used to because of all the ticks but yes,there's still grouse and alot of deer.If you go in deep near the beaver dams around winterburn,there's plenty of deer.I actually just leased 500 acres with a bunch of guys that borders the Sabula side of SGL 93.

very good comments.you are right. there is forum in pa called, huntingpa.it is loaded with people who are in favor of the way our hunting is going here in pa..they even have wco on there defending policy.its a forum that when a person from 2g as you say comments, they gang up on them and try to destroy their comments. most i know dont view this forum anymore. we are very lucky to be on this forum as most on here are decent people. i cant say same for the ones on that other site.