"Opinions vs. Facts.......Yeah, I guess facts are better, but it is Opinions that will make or break the PGC."

Whether you realize it or not, you've just describedthe rootof the problem we're discussing here.

Opinions formed without any basis infact are useless...unless one is the sorta guy that just likes his opinions and can't be bothered by anything as useful as a few facts.

Well I've got a few facts for all to see. In February of 2005 (less than a year ago) Cal DuBrock, Bureau Chief of Wildlife management for the Pennsylvania Game Commission, told PGC personnel at a meeting, "We have no deer model, no data, and no plan for managing the deer herd in Pennsylvania."

Here's a quote from the mastermind of the PGC's Deer Management Plan, Dr. Gary (Just Kill The Deer)Alt.

“It’s an old saw that management is only as good as the data it’s based on. While it’s possible to manage something badly based on good information (though we certainly try to avoid that!), it’s impossible to manage something well based on bad information or no information at all.” (NOV-79 Penn Game News)

Last year at the Ft. Washington Sportsmen's Show I attended a seminar conducted by Cal DuBrock. He was just putting together a Urban Deer management Plan. The year has past and there is still no Urban Deer Management Plan. Five years into a state wide deer management program andthe agency still has no Urban Deer Management Plan!

This is the same man who allowed Gary Alt to manage without any oversight. The same man who approved the50 % reduction in Pheasant stocking and would have allowed the cut in Pheasants for the Youth Pheasant Hunt.

One has to wonder why Cal DuBrock, after so many failures is still employed by the PGC.

doug, sproulman here,it was right in paper that they stopped because they were LOST.weather was not a problem but they may have used that as excuse to stop.paper said they said they were lost. i feel they stopped because of lack of deer and why waste money if your not going to prove that we have 16 deer per mile.i may be wrong but you can see, i dont believe they stopped because of weather or time. i will look at that info, thanks.sproulman

It might be that your paper is wrong, or perhaps you are. According to the DCNR website, they completed the southern Sproul flyovers and have the results posted.
http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry/deer/deersurvey_D10.aspx

What they found was not 16 deer per square mile, but a bit over 8. If you want facts, look at the page. If not, no problem with me.

Also, for those interested, here is the website for the Army Corps of Engineers study of the deer densities on Federal land at lake Raystown.
http://raystown.nab.usace.army.mil/LandManagement/deer_management.htm

"and the truth shall set you free."

I wonder how much of that browse is missing because of high deer populationsOR how much is caused by the mature forests with a thick canopy that doesn't allow enough sunlight in to let anything grow? I personally hunt in Greene Co.

Those " Opinions" are by hunters that spend time in those areas and notice the lack of deer. Why buy a hunting license to go sit in the woods for days to see nothing? You can do that for free. Why hand the PGC all that money for nothing.

You call me and others like me , with our opinion, the root of the problem. DO YOU NOT NOTICE THE TOTAL LACK OF DEER IN THE PA. WOODS?

That...... is....... the problem!


I understand what you are saying about the browse not being there. I don't believe it is....ONLY.... because there are or were too many deer. I think the mature forests with the thick canopy is a big part of the problem.

I think the PGC should address that problem, not exterminate the deer population, knowing they are only hurting themselves down the road and creating a bad situation with the very people that provide their paycheck.

Even in Greene Co. there is a big difference in the amount of deer now than the way it was a few years ago. In Greene Co. I can get you all kind of browse. Why then, are they shooting so many there???

I know it isn't near as bad as in NC PA. but it is getting there.

It is because of money. I can't believe you guys can't see that.They sell all those license to make money.

Why do Commissioners Dan Hill of Erie Co. and Tom Boop of Northumberland Co. question the PGC and their deer managment program?

You would think that guys like this would be " In the know"

Even Roxanne Palone of Greene Co. isn't sure how the PGC is going tomeasure the success of their deer program.

Is it working? How do we know? Are they shooting too many deer or not enough? How do we measure? People talk about Facts yet no one knows for sure how to measure deer populations. Why are commissioners questioning the program? Why?

If the PGC would reduce doe licenses considerably and shorten the season to a few days ( or even eliminate it in some areas ) , that would satisfy most sportsmen. THEN if the deer population plummets, because of the over browsed habitat, the PGC could say " We told you so"

Either way the deer lose.

The answer to all of your questions has already been summed up by none other than Cal DuBrock...
"We have no deer model, no data, and no plan for managing the deer herd in Pennsylvania."

The true answer to a great many of the problems that face the PGC, whether or not they be deer, densecanopy,acid rain, or lack of funds is CUT THE TREES.

Cutting the trees would generate Millions of much needed revenue, create more and better habitat for all species living in the woods, and most likely invite more new and young hunters into the sport. It would be a WIN, WIN, WIN situation.

Oh, one other thing would be a real plus; dismiss Cal DuBrock!

Crazy Horse,

I agree totally