Phade

Sigh.

Looks like we should now adopt a new slogan.

New York.....The next PA.

It looks like there are already two camps here. I'm still predicting this off-season will be worse than last.

farm hunter

Stretchunts -

If you and 4 others call in your permits as "filled" - You skew the number.

Let me explain. The DEC Does not count all deer herds per se - but they sample, and use statistics togive them a good indication of numbers ofdeer.

Letssay that historically 50% of doe permits are filled.When you and your buddies report 100% success -to them it may notmean that too many deer were taken. In fact it could mean the opposite - and since a "higher percentage" of permits were "filled" - then they may concurr that they did not issue ENOUGH permits - and issue more next year.

My point is you DON'T KNOW how they use the call in data - and by not reporting accurately - you contaminate the results - then people complain that the "DEC is a JOKE".

Why not report accurately and let them do their Job?

FH

farm hunter

Phade - some people will always complain abou the DEC and deer management in NY.

Over the last 10 years - these same guys weren't patting the DEC on the back for the huge increases in the deer herd and harvest - they were complaing that too many deer were getting shot - and too many permits were being issued - even with RECORD POPULATIONS and harvests year in and year out.

The DEC has said the last few years that there is such thing as "too many deer" - and now that populations have been swinging down. The same guys that "refuse to shoot does" are armchair managing the state deer herd.

I say let the DEC do their Job.

Ask them to list their population goals for each WMU and hold them to it.

FH

stretchhunts

I do see your point. I really do want to know how they come up with thier numbers.

farm hunter

Mtair - How are you "saving" them by getting a permit and not shooting them? Do you "call in" your permits as filled? - If not then Maybe the DEC just thinks you are a lousy hunter.

My point is the same as I made to stretchhunts - YOU do not know how the DEC uses the numbers of deer harvested (or not harvested - or the percentage).Maybe they don't even consider whether you took a deer or not.

One thing I can say about Doe permits - is that the DEC uses Population counts (out of season),weather conditions at fawn drop, and predator populations - as much or more than harvest results. Also meat cutter checks, or surveys - in the determination of how much of the herd can be harvested - and ultimately the number of permits issued.

If the DECthinks that 8000 Antlerless deer can be harvested in a WMU - its because they've done their analysis. Maybe they issue 20,000 permits to take these 8000 deer. Next year they will check the populations using surveys, harvest totals etc against their predicted populations - and come up with a NEW number. It may or may not matter one lick - that you let every doe pass that you see.

Why not let them dotheir job, and even harvest a Doe if legal? If they say its OK - then really - it probably is. If not - and you take one anyhow, they will compensate the next year or two.

In the Catskills, (and elsewhere) the habitat can only supprt SO MANY deer - and when that number is approached - the DEC Checks it back quickly -

I think in General - people have come to expect 30-40 deer per square mile. In so many places in NY - these numbers are not feasible without habitat control that favours deer - Forever Wild is NOT a habitat control option that does.

FH

Bill Yox

This is the mentallity that the DEC has to deal with, as if trying to manage the herd wasnt hard enough! Remember, the DEC is in the public relations business too...

The way the state estimates numbers and determines how many to take is flawed by anyones standards, but they do the best they can. They use aerial surveys in certain areas were topography permits it. Measuring browselines and monitoring native food plants is another. Counting offspring through birth scars, numbers of fetuses developing in roadkill does, and also hunter input. Guess what? They already know how "clever" some are, and figure in for all those doe tags reported but not filled. Theres equations based on averages and a whole bunch of thought that goes into this. Its not a perfect system, but its basically all they have.

Like so many others have said in this thread, the state hasnt done a great job in every area, but the solution, to micro-manage certain areas, to date doesnt seem feasible yet. The DEC does NOT, however, win too many hunters over when they try to force feed us the silliness like state wide winter kills, etc. I for one wish they could set aside the arrogance and just admit they erred, and adjust the numbers in some areas, and just do the best they can. I think we could all live with that.

amayerican

“to micro-manage certain areas.” And like BTBowhunter said for PA in a few posts; “Smaller WMU.” For accrete harvest numbers and better calculating tags issued for the future. It Makes a lot of sense to me.

BuckAlley

I'm sure the DEC uses many ways to calculate, estimate NY's deer population. But whenever I look on their websight for harvest numbers, and predictions its all about bucks per square mile. So it seems to me the amount of bucks taken per square mile is a big part of their figures. I just re-checked 2004 harvest numbers on the DEC websight. 47 wmu's were 10% or more below the projected buck per square mile harvest. Forty Seven!!! This I believe was the DEC's main reason for backing off on the permits handed out, and closing some wmu's to permits all together. So we can go on and on about what the population should be at, and what the DEC has been trying to do. But their own numbers show that 47 of 75 wmu'swere below their own objective population levels going into 2005 season. It'll be interesting to see this yrs harvest numbers.
The 1 thing I do not agree upon, and for the life of me don't understand hunters that do this crap. Is to falsely report taking or not taking of game. Especially when ones have no clue on how the DEC does the calculations. This is the only system wehave to rely on, like it or not.Your not helping this state by playing games with your tags, and trying to take this upon yourself to configure. Its one thing if you select not to shoot a doe, small buck, fawn, whatever. But its another when you falsely report. It pisses me right off. [:@]
I have a question for some of the more knowledgable on the DEC. Can anyone tell me how they came about the boundary lines for WMU's. Like why is 7M so big compared to the rest of Southern N.Y. wmu's, in fact its the biggest in Southern NY. I wonder if it wouldn't be better to split the sucker in half, and try to manage the population. 7M is obviously screwd up! I recall when part of it was area 75, and it wasn't this big.

doughboysigep

in general, they tryuse similar land uses to help them determine WMUs and then try and use easily recognizable boundries (rivers, highways, etc.) to mark them. For example, 7M (where I hunt) is so big because it is premoninatly rural and they have tried to encompass the large amount of public land in the area. I probably wouldn't hurt to split it in half, but it is the way it is. Other units may be predominantly privately owned, others may be based more on topography. They do have a rythme to their reason.

mtair

farm hunter, i would never call in on an animal that i didnt harvest, thats illegal to some degree. it is my decision on getting a permit and not using it, i how ever signed my permit over to others who in my belief could really use the extra venison. if land i hunt is not up to its deer carrying potental and i pass on a doe or two it makes me feel im doing the right thing. im not obligated to harvest a doe because i have a permit. i would like to add i think a major problem in my zone that absolutly has on the herd are the outlaws that pound away at the herd density by not being able to stop at thier quota ive known people that dont stop untill the season ends . if you have a piece of land with as little as one hunter doing this it wont take very long to notice a deline in the herd.