Indianahick

A couple of you are yelling that us here in Indiana do not know what we are talking about in wanting the hunting on these places stopped as it is being done. As for Bellers he is exalted by other high fence people here. Rodney Bruce being one of the most outspoken followers, Rodney Brucealso sell elk hunts. Elk are considered exotics here. Exotics are Illeagle to hunt here. No argument it is illeagle.
We have asked them how they feed their animals, no one will say. It has been asked if they have kept an area just for feeding, no awnser. If they let their animals range their total farms in short order they are all going to starve to death with out feeders.
If they want to raise deer and sell deer pee, etc to makers of scents that is just fine with me, if they want to slaughter and sell meat I have no problem. As for your land being your own personal property and doing what you wish, just build an out house or start up a hazardous waste dump, build a building without getting your proper permits. It is yours as long as you stay within the boundries of the law.

Big Country

You are asking him what they feed their animals, or how they feed their animals, and they won`t say? Maybe because it is none of your business.

And while we are on this topic, exactly WHO is this "we" that you are refering to here?

Now you are comparing a high fence hunting preserve to a hazardous waste landfill?

I have agreed all along that even though I find Indiana`s laws regarding these types of establishments wrong....they ARE the law of the state, so Russ Bellar was wrong, and got what he deserved.

You have some guy named Rodney Bruce saying that Bellars was a "showcase" for high fence......that is just one man`s opinion.

BTW, I have yet to hear anybody yell at you.

Oh, one more thing....if you would have no problem with a high fence owner raising these animals for pee, or to slaughter them for meat, why would you possibly care if they let someone come in and kill the critter themselves?

bigbuckOO

I thought i mentioned this in the original post, Bellars place was looked upon as a model preserve by every preserve owner in this state. And you have to remember that there isnt many of these operations in the state to begin with, it's a close knit group. Bellar was the man according to these folks, still to this day he is inoccent if you listen to them. It's a properry issue, until you start drugging deer, shooting deer over feeders, allowing hunters to take over their limit of bucks, shoot deer without tags, and the 25 other violations that Bellar had. Since it was actually never declared legal to begin with, Mr. Bellar more then likely ruined it for the entire bunch. I'd like to see the state pull a few more raids myself.

Ruddyduck

Off the subject. I never liked soccer until my daughter started playing years back. Believe me on a competitive level it isn't a sissy game.
I played organized football for 14 years and coached for a few years on the high school level. I have never seen as many broken ankles and legs and knee injuries as I've witnessed as in soccer.

Big Country

bigbuck00, I agree 100%, Bellar obviously did things that he KNEW were direct violations of state law. For any of the other high fence owners to condone that is not a good move. I have stated before that I have never hunted inside a high fence, and that is true. I also said that I have no financial ties to a hugh fence hunting preserve, that is true as well.

I do have a fair amount of experience with high fence operations though. There is no reason to have to drug an animal for a client to shoot it. If I were to guess, and this is only a guess......a common practice among shooting preserves like this is to sell a hunt for a size class buck they do not even have. After they make the arrangements for the hunt, they shop around and purchase the right sized animal. Of course whitetails are so high strung that they need to be completely knocked out to be transported. I am guessing that they took delivery on an animal the same day as the hunt was to occur, and the deer was still under the influence of the tranquilizer.

Even though I personally do not have the desire to hunt inside a high fence, I can honestly tell you that it does not take a very big area for whitetails to hide from you for days on end. If you wanted to bowhunt insid a high fence, you could hunt a 100 acre pen where the deer were never bottle fed as fawns for days without killing a deer.

Regardless of my opinion on whether Indiana residents should be allowed to operate a hunting preserve 7 days a week, 365 days a year, without a hunting license.......the state law makes this illegal. The law might be wrong IMO, but it is the law, and it should be adhered to.

Ruddyduck, I know that when soccer is played at a higher level, it is an extremely tough sport. My problem with soccer stems fom the fact that I am old enough to have seen the beginnings of soccers popularity in this country. Those soccer leagues popped up everywhere, and ruined every baseball outfield we had in our area. Plus, at the younger ages it was a feel good sport. Winning was not important, and everybody got to play an equal amount of time regardless of their skill level. I have always had a problem with that mindset. It might be OK for 6-10 year olds, but any older than that and you are teaching kids a bad life lesson. In real life, there are winners and losers. If you are not doing very good, you need to know it, and practice to be better. In real life, your report card is called a paycheck. Even though I have to grudgingly admit that soccer can be a super tough game, I still don`t see why I cannot pick that dang ball up and throw it!!

One last thing for Indianahick.......hey man, I am sorry if my post came accross like I was yelling, or mad about this subject. I do disagree with the legality of the subject, but I do believe operations like this should be held to strict standards. We may disagree on this subject, but we are both passionate about the outdoors and hunting. We are on the same side here, we just don`t agree on this particular deal.

Bill Yox

Bigbuck and others, a couple of things...first off, Bellars place is no model for what is done across the country, the big picture. Yes, maybe in your part of the world, Indiana specifically, but then again, your DNR and governor has your state so screwed up, the enclosures ought to be the least of your worries. Also, you must understand thatmany of ushave also been talking about enclosure hunts in a broader perspective and not just Indiana in particular, in other posts like this. The hatred for all hunts that folksdont participate in has got to stop, or all hunting will stop. You should see the crossbow wars here in NY state. Remember, NY isnt all David Letterman and concrete, we take 200,000 deer a year here. Simply put, there is way more at stake than many of you realize, and unfortunately this isnt exactly an open audience wanting to learn anything from those of us who know. Im not going to bounce this back and forth any further with you guys, its obvious what we are dealing with here. But I will answer honestly a few of your questions, in the interest of being fair.

Most large enclosures have herd managers and veterinarian/nutritionists either on staff or at least on hand. Plots as well as agriculture are done inside. Usually a seperate breeding facility is set up to ensure very selective breeding, the key to what they have and most of you dont have. Supplemental feed is offered free choice and at all times at open feeders (much the same as most of you all do for supplements, by the way) not held back and then fed before the slaughter, as some wish to think. Yes, I am a deer farmer, and no, I do not offer hunts. Even urine and other usage deer farms must sooner or later have an end usage for the animals. Based on the large number of animals used in this manner proves to ANY REASONABLE person that this is a much sought after endeavor. So, whether they cry like girls later after having been involved in a less than upstanding situation or not, theres a growing number of good folks who simply do not feel like some of you do about this type of activity. As many times as Ive raised the point over the last year in this forum, nobody has yet to challenge me on my points...the end to this type of hunting also will suck up YOUR type, be it stocked birds, stocked fish, reintroduced species, whatever. In the eyes of those who truly hate ALL of us, its the same damned thing. To argue with me is foolish, its already there. Indiana, you are being foolish to label all of this as BELLAR, but regardless, protect your hunting priviledges outside where YOU hunt first, as thats being attacked too. Good luck to you all.

kevin1

It's easy to chastise us for being against them when you're not the one living with them , we despise them and don't want them here and that's all anyone else needs to take into account . It was a mistake for them to set up here in the first place and the only thing that's really happening is that the mistake is being rectified . When the dust settles the courts and the Legislature will most likely give them a few years to recoup their investment before banishing them , after that you can have them if they mean so much to you , just tell us where to send them .

TurkeyStalker

SHUT THEM DOWN, IT IS NOT A FAIR CHASE HUNT. KINDA LIKE FISHING IN A POOL FOR RECORD BASS>

Big Country

kevin1 and TurkeyStalker, you despise them so you want them gone. What other types of hunting related activities would you like to do away with also?

Let me name a few hunting methods that are implemented in various parts of the country, while not used in other areas....

Driving of deer to the guns
Running deer with dogs
Treestand hunting with gun or bow
Stalking
Using an Atlatl( a huge spear you stick a deer with)
Bowhunting with a crossbow
Baiting deer
Food plots
Hunting deer with ANY weapon during the rut


Name which of these you would like to see made illegal as well.

High fenced preserves do not hurt you in any way. I am sitting here as calm as can be, so don`t think I am yelling or screaming when I tell you that your attitude is nonsensicle, selfish, and extremely narrow minded.

Running a high fence OUTSIDE of the state law is wrong, evn if the states law is not well thought out. Either lobby to have the law changed, or move to a state where it is legal.

People who want to force their will, their thoughts, their ethical views on everybody else have been around since longer than any of us by a longshot. It was wrong and ugly 200 years ago, and it is no different today.

So, how about that list.....which other methods of killing a deer would you like to abolish? Maybe you can help divide sportsmen even more.

Indianahick

Big country, Bill. 1 at 61 I am no fan of soccer, to me it is trying to bring europian ways into the United States. I also disagree with people teaching kids that losing does not matter, it does and unfortunatly they will find that out once the get to the labor arena.

As for the Hazardous waste dump that was in referance to someone saying in it is their property they can do what they want. IE. an example of how you can not do as you please. No comparison other than the leagality issue. Dig it?

As for high fenced deer farming like I said let them sell the urine, conduct school toors, nature hikes. High fenced hunting is in a gray area here. Neither leagle or illeagle as long as no other laws are broken. Feeders and salt blocks in and near hunting areas are illeagle, feed dumped on the ground is illeagle. Running deer with dogs is illeagle, so is baiting. Atlati is leagle (I beleive) and I have read about it and am amazed at the distances that are achieved.

For the person that asked about what I would do if I seen someone gut shoot a deer the night befor gun opener so that they could find a fresh kill and take it home. It is simple I would (have) call the 800 tip line and say where I seen it happen. I have talked to CO's about people that have put out salt blocks to attract deer. Do I feel bad if these people were ticketed or lost their hunting privilages? NO!!

Bill is it my business how the feed their animals? Probably not but if they are breaking the law with feeders out in their hunting area why not say?
You said something about hunting deer in a hundred acre area. The whole farm we are talking about is 117. Not the wilderness in Michigan. I drove by what I believe to be the wilderness when my son worked in Detroit. There is no comparrison.

What is being done on these smaller deer farms (less than 1500 acres) is not hunting it is killing. What I'am mainly against is overstocking and calling it hunting.

As for crossbows, I would not mind if they were leaglized for everyone. There is a cocking device out there that I would like to see leagleized for handicapped hunters. The Draw Lock??

Oh yeah the ones trying to force their ways on others is the high fenced operators. If you love your deer chasing dog hunt him where it is leagle. Cause if I see you I will take your plates and call the DNR. As it is not leagle.