Here are my thoughts of the day on this...some real revalations in here.

If I were just CARRYING a gun, I wouldn't feel bad about it being a 9mm, because I'd be awake, alert, and probably in the light, so I can place my shots well, but as for HOME DEFENSE (or a gun that would EVER serve this pupose), I'm probably going to be asleep, groggy, and in the dark when the need arises, making COM (center of mass) hits when your eyes haven't adjusted and you're still half asleep isn't easy, but sometimes it's required, so I want all of the "KO power" I can get...I trust a .45acp, I DON'T trust the 9mm.

For civilian use, either would probably honestly do fine, I think it's mostly a stereotypical mind set that we NEED a .45acp, which is based on what military/LEO's NEED...Say I'm a LEO or Military personell leading my group into a house to secure a POW or on a drug raid, I open the door to 6 guys shooting at me, I've got to make each shot count under pressure, I'm lucky if I can get COM hits, but I've got to incapacitate my target and move to the next before I wind up with a bullet in me...if there are 6guys and I've got two 10rnd mags on me, at best I can only take about 3shots per person-misses and non-COM hits included, but it'd be nice if I didn't have to reload with bullets flying at me, I want as much stopping power as I can get, so I carry a .45acp. It's also quite possible that I may need to take shots that are 30yrds OR MORE, at 50yrds, average .45acp loads have dropped from 460ft.lbs. to 400ft.lbs. (speer reloading manual with a 230grn gold dot at 900fps), a 9mm has dropped from 434ft.lbs. to 333ft.lbs (124gold dot at 1250fps), so if I'm basing behind my car in a shoot out with a crackhead in his doorway who doesn't want to go back to jail, or I've got hostiles closing in on my position after a hard firefight and my rifle's dry, I want to stop them before they get too close for comfort, I'm going with the .45acp.

Now, say I'm a civilian who carries a gun or keeps one on the nightstand just in case-I'm reading in bed one night and someone breaks in through my livingroom window, I open the bedroom door to investigate and meet the intruder, I quickly empty my gun at close range, COM hits are easy, it's all point blank (think about the farthest shot you'll EVER have in your house 30ft is a LONG room-and you'd have to both be against the wall for that), 8-10rnds from even a .32acp or .380auto isn't going to be good for them, they're probably not going to have enough vineagar left to get a shot off,

But just on the off chance that I need one shot stops, I want a .45, your mileage may vary.

As for penetrating thick winter coats, the entire arguement is stupid, go out and shoot a winter coat sometime-I DID just because of this thread, take chrony readings of your regular velocity and readings on the bullet after it comes out the back, it's not going to be that different...a poly/cotton filler isn't going to slow a bullet much if at all, a nylon shell isn't going to retain stiffness long enough to absorb much energy, goose down would be a little tougher, but not enough to create a variance in velocity that even the same lot of ammo wouldn't have in it already. Garment weight leather doesn't stand up enough to cause a problem either-I shot some old apholstery leather (thicker than garment leather mind you), I really can't even see a heavyweight leather AND thickly lined duster slowing a bullet much, or expanding a bullet much more than .01"...they're winter coats, not body armor, the protect from wind, not bullets. Having 5-6layers of t-shirts or sweatshirts on would slow a bullet MUCH more than a winter coats, anyone care to be shot with just 5-6 sweatshirts on? I did some random testing, just to be thourough, I used my .45acp's and my buddies' 9mm, shot a couple old coats, some tin, and some cardboard...the cardboard slowed the bullets down about ten times as much as the winter coats did (going through TWO layers of coat, front and back, not just one like a person would have on), it still wasn't a huge depletion, but like I said, 10x that of the winter coat.

I also noticed that the "legend" is flawed, the big bullets of the .45acp were effected to a greater degree on average than the 9mm's, the 9mm out penetrates in bodies AND winter coats.

If you think about it, it makes sense that the 9mm out penetrates the .45, but the .45 does more damage and is a better stopper-diving into water doesn't hurt, and you go really deep=9mm, belly flops stop you almost instantly and you go shallow=.45acp, the trick of it though, the belly flop effected a lot more water than the dive did, through wave translation, it stopped you because the entire column of water below your body didn't want to get out of the way, you can dive in because you only effect the water around you.

Also as I mentioned before, there is a new 45cal pistol cartridge being introduced, a shortened .45acp case that fits on a small frame pistol, but nearly mimics the .45acp in performance, if I need a carry pistol, this would be it, I won't be buying a 9mm...except maybe in a carbine, they're just fun to shoot.

You just stated that layered clothing slows a bullet much more than any coat would, but I can't remember the last time I saw somewhere wearing only a coat with no layering underneath. If I'm facing someone with a cotton/poly undershirt, a buttoned shirt, a sweater/sweatshirt, and a leather coat, I want a big, heavy round that will penetrate and expand properly.

You keep shooting your backyard trash, and I'll listen to the LE's out there who have had to use their sidearms on actual perpetrators.

Nomercy, I don't recall anyone talking about penetration as much as we're talking about expending energy to stop an assailant. You pretty much showed in your post how the .45 does this much better than the 9mm.

Again, maybe the larger frontal area of the .45 caused the lack of penetration. I don't want it to penetrate all the way thru. I want it to do deep, and expend all of it's energy. This is why the 9mm isn't a great manstopper. It overpenetrates and doesn't expend the energy that the .45 does in the target.

Again, proving the point. .45 acp is better as far as energy goes.

Briman, I want to see you conceal one of those 50's or 44automags on a nice summer day. LOL

"is that a .50 cal you have in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me??"
[&:]

Danny,
How well do full size 1911's work for concealement?
I ask this because:
CCW is very close to passing in my state.
I'm on the verge of buying a Springfield Milspec 1911A1- looked at one yesterday and really like it, but am waiting for my end of year bonus check from work Which I get next month.
Not sure if I'll ever apply for CCW, but don't have anything smaller than the 1911- have a beretta 92- but it feels like a pig of a gun even compared to the 1911, and I wouldn't want to carry it around all day.

Danny, it WAS my point in my post to show that the .45acp is better at translating energy to the body...I wanted to point out that when people claim that "heavy winter clothing will absorb energy, so I use a .45acp", that they've got it backwards, if EITHER WERE effected, which they aren't, my tests proved it, the .45acp would be effected more than the 9mm, so if a heavy coat would stop any bullet, it would stop a .45acp before a 9mm.

Aught six, I agree that most people do wear some layers under their winter coats, but if you'll re-read my post, I pointed out that IF ANY CLOTHING worked at all, 6 layers of sweatshirt were better than a winter coat, I never lived in alaska, but I did live in North Minnesota and about an hour uphill from denver Denver-Winter park Co, I certainly don't know anyone who ran around in 6sweaters under a wintercoat...I also pointed out that A SINGLE SHEET OF CARDBOARD PROVIDED THE GREATEST REDUCTION IN VELOCITY THAT I WITNESSED (the best protection that a non-plastic barrier produced in my tests at least, a cooler lid slowed the bullets about 100fps)-Cardboard slowed the bullets 10x better than the winter coats and considerably better than the sweatshirts, and even still it was a miniscule depletion in velocity, not enough to make me consider the capabilities of my round against an assailant in a cardboard suit. People who know anything about cold don't wear leather jackets to stay warm either.

Based on my results (with a 9mm Ruger P-89), to get even a 100fps depletion in velocity, a person would have to wear about 25sweatshirts, I only noted an average of about 32fps decline when shooting through a sweater folded in quarters=8layers...when shooting through a wintercoat, My average velocity decrease through a poly cotton filled winter coat (front and back=two layers), was only about 6fps, through a goose down jacket it was about 10fps...through a piece of garment leather and two layers of sweater-typical leather jacket, I got 8fps decline, through a piece of cardboard, I got an average of 55fps decline...Even shooting through folded Saddle skirting, two layers of 14oz leather, which the HEAVIEST dusters are only one layer of 5-6oz, I only noted about 40fps. A single T-shirt showed no decrease, but at 10layers, I started getting hits that dropped

Based on my findings, the clothing you described would slow a bullet around 15-20fps at the MOST...not enough to make me think twice.

Yes, I do agree that the .45acp is better for stopping power, I just wanted to point out that the entire "thich clothing" debate is absolutely unsupported. It sounds good, makes sense I guess, but my chrony proved otherwise...I tested it because I was uncertain, and I proved it wrong.

BTW, I did these tests at the indoor range at my the police training center here in town, I worked two years as a LEO and still work as a BEA-bounty hunter if you will-between my real occupation, working with guys that had been in the business for longer than I'd been alive, this came up from time to time, and none of them ever felt that they were any safer in the winter from what they're wearing or in any more danger in the winter from bad guys wearing thick clothes...if it worked for badguys, the good guys would do it too, I guarantee it's cheaper to buy 50 officers thick coats than kevlars.

Briman, It's very easy. Because of the 1911's "slab side" it's very narrow. Even on warm summer days, an untucked shirt will cover it and not "print" it. You can get all kinds of concealment holsters for it, just pick the one you like. I use a Fobus (plastic) paddle holster. I like it because the gun is secure, yet draws very quickly, and, with the paddle I can take it off and leave it in the vehicle if I go somewhere that CCW isn't allowed.


Sorry Nomercy, I misunderstood your meaning.

Depends on the use and how much you will shoot it.

If the 9mm is one of the Beretta clones, it's really a good gun for all around use. If it is one of the little models, it will be good for CCW.

Not too familiar with the Taurus 45s. But I like 45s and Taurus does have a lifetime warranty.

9mm ammo is cheaper, whether you reload or not. That may matter if you want to target shoot alot.

If defense is the main purpose, either will work fine with the right bullets. A good 9mm HP is better than 45 ball ammo. A 45 HP doesn't always expand but you already have the bigger diameter to start. I carry CorBon 185 JHP in my 45s.

Both of my CCW guns happen to be 45s. But when I was in LE, I carried a Sig P226 9mm and never felt outgunned. I have seen bullets perform great and failures in both 9mm and 45. Bullet placement is the most important aspect.

Shoot both guns. They will shoot differently, both in recoil and probably ease of use. Compare comfort and accuracy. Check reliability as a gun that gags cannot be relied upon for self defense. Decide which you like better and go with it. That is really all that matters.

Danny, no problem, I assumed that you just skimmed my post (rather lengthy) and simply misread it, simple mistake, no harm, no foul.

I also agree that it's fairly easy to conceal a full sized 1911, in normal clothing, I DON'T wear shorts, and ALWAYS wear a western snap shirt tucked in (been cowboying all my life, regardless of what I do for a living-Chemical Engineer for those interested)...It isn't legal for concealed carriage in our state, but I shoot IDPA, where concealed is the rule, so I wear one hidden often, not a problem at all. Wear a t-shirt untucked and you're in better shape yet.

Now, I won't say it's easier to conceal a full sized 1911 than a Kel-tec .32 or .380, wearing a 1911 takes a little more work and a little less movement sometimes, if I wore shorts and tank tops running in a CCW state, covering the 1911 wouldn't be an issue as I wouldn't consider it...if even just for the fact that it'd probably pull my shorts down.[][][]

If all you're planning on shooting is paper, then by all means get the 9mm.

If you had other purposes in mind then your needs would be different. What I can't understand is the severe bias against the 9mm. Yes, the .45ACP is a better "man-stopper," and I've got one in the nightstand just in case some idiot decides to break in and find out for themselves just how good a 230gr. Hydro-shok (or three) functions in a human body.

But I'm not toting that gun around all day every day. If I could carry (Iowa is not yet "shall issue") I honestly probably wouldn't carry my .45 (Glock 21)because if its size. And as the saying goes, "the .25ACP you have in your pocket when you need it is better than the .45 you'd have left at home." Personally, if I were looking at buying a compact or sub-compact carry gun I wouldn't want a .45ACP. The .45ACP isn't bad in a full-sized pistol, but the recoil can be pretty wild from a compact or smaller handgun. I personally think that the 9mm is a great compromise for a CCW gun because it's still, with the right ammo, powerful enough to do the job well, without being so large and powerful as to make the pistol hard to shoot well (at least any harder to shoot than compacts already are) or hard to conceal comfortably.

And if your really that worried about one-shot stopping power, then forget pistols and get yourself a 12 gauge with 00 or 000 Buck. It'll put 'em down faster than any pistol on Earth, and it's easier to shoot, too.

Mike