Here are my thoughts of the day on this...some real revalations in here.

If I were just CARRYING a gun, I wouldn't feel bad about it being a 9mm, because I'd be awake, alert, and probably in the light, so I can place my shots well, but as for HOME DEFENSE (or a gun that would EVER serve this pupose), I'm probably going to be asleep, groggy, and in the dark when the need arises, making COM (center of mass) hits when your eyes haven't adjusted and you're still half asleep isn't easy, but sometimes it's required, so I want all of the "KO power" I can get...I trust a .45acp, I DON'T trust the 9mm.

For civilian use, either would probably honestly do fine, I think it's mostly a stereotypical mind set that we NEED a .45acp, which is based on what military/LEO's NEED...Say I'm a LEO or Military personell leading my group into a house to secure a POW or on a drug raid, I open the door to 6 guys shooting at me, I've got to make each shot count under pressure, I'm lucky if I can get COM hits, but I've got to incapacitate my target and move to the next before I wind up with a bullet in me...if there are 6guys and I've got two 10rnd mags on me, at best I can only take about 3shots per person-misses and non-COM hits included, but it'd be nice if I didn't have to reload with bullets flying at me, I want as much stopping power as I can get, so I carry a .45acp. It's also quite possible that I may need to take shots that are 30yrds OR MORE, at 50yrds, average .45acp loads have dropped from 460ft.lbs. to 400ft.lbs. (speer reloading manual with a 230grn gold dot at 900fps), a 9mm has dropped from 434ft.lbs. to 333ft.lbs (124gold dot at 1250fps), so if I'm basing behind my car in a shoot out with a crackhead in his doorway who doesn't want to go back to jail, or I've got hostiles closing in on my position after a hard firefight and my rifle's dry, I want to stop them before they get too close for comfort, I'm going with the .45acp.

Now, say I'm a civilian who carries a gun or keeps one on the nightstand just in case-I'm reading in bed one night and someone breaks in through my livingroom window, I open the bedroom door to investigate and meet the intruder, I quickly empty my gun at close range, COM hits are easy, it's all point blank (think about the farthest shot you'll EVER have in your house 30ft is a LONG room-and you'd have to both be against the wall for that), 8-10rnds from even a .32acp or .380auto isn't going to be good for them, they're probably not going to have enough vineagar left to get a shot off,

But just on the off chance that I need one shot stops, I want a .45, your mileage may vary.

As for penetrating thick winter coats, the entire arguement is stupid, go out and shoot a winter coat sometime-I DID just because of this thread, take chrony readings of your regular velocity and readings on the bullet after it comes out the back, it's not going to be that different...a poly/cotton filler isn't going to slow a bullet much if at all, a nylon shell isn't going to retain stiffness long enough to absorb much energy, goose down would be a little tougher, but not enough to create a variance in velocity that even the same lot of ammo wouldn't have in it already. Garment weight leather doesn't stand up enough to cause a problem either-I shot some old apholstery leather (thicker than garment leather mind you), I really can't even see a heavyweight leather AND thickly lined duster slowing a bullet much, or expanding a bullet much more than .01"...they're winter coats, not body armor, the protect from wind, not bullets. Having 5-6layers of t-shirts or sweatshirts on would slow a bullet MUCH more than a winter coats, anyone care to be shot with just 5-6 sweatshirts on? I did some random testing, just to be thourough, I used my .45acp's and my buddies' 9mm, shot a couple old coats, some tin, and some cardboard...the cardboard slowed the bullets down about ten times as much as the winter coats did (going through TWO layers of coat, front and back, not just one like a person would have on), it still wasn't a huge depletion, but like I said, 10x that of the winter coat.

I also noticed that the "legend" is flawed, the big bullets of the .45acp were effected to a greater degree on average than the 9mm's, the 9mm out penetrates in bodies AND winter coats.

If you think about it, it makes sense that the 9mm out penetrates the .45, but the .45 does more damage and is a better stopper-diving into water doesn't hurt, and you go really deep=9mm, belly flops stop you almost instantly and you go shallow=.45acp, the trick of it though, the belly flop effected a lot more water than the dive did, through wave translation, it stopped you because the entire column of water below your body didn't want to get out of the way, you can dive in because you only effect the water around you.

Also as I mentioned before, there is a new 45cal pistol cartridge being introduced, a shortened .45acp case that fits on a small frame pistol, but nearly mimics the .45acp in performance, if I need a carry pistol, this would be it, I won't be buying a 9mm...except maybe in a carbine, they're just fun to shoot.