I don't think I need to pick any sides. I can understand and accept both ways of looking at it. There are many ways of using the rifle and for my practical needs with a sporting rifle, I don't need to argue the 1/16 of a MOA of accuracy at 500 yards. Make no mistake, I don't NEED to be right on this or any other topic on this forum. I am just presenting ideas, from a guy that knew a thing or two about hunting and the rifle.

And this might be addressing another thread but it applies here as well... For me as a hunter with a sporting rifle, if I can put 4 bullets in one hole at 100 yards with factory ammo, or 2"MOA at 300 yards, I am impressed and that rifle/ammo has surpassed all my expectations for a light weight hunting rifle. In fact I am thrilled and reading 30 years of gun magazines, if they were reviewing it, they would be impressed as well. I have seen bench rest guns at my club with more money in them not do as good. The pursuit of accuracy is never ending and you have to say where you have reached your acceptable goal. My expectations might be unimpressive to some but it doesn't really matter as long as I am happy and get the job done in the woods. In the end they are just tools to enjoy.



I have explained everything I could say on the topic...... Thank you for your participation.

did he build them?
RR

Check this out. I have hit a 12" steel plate with a 30-30 three out of five times at 550 yards. So that makes my 30-30 a 2 MOA gun at 550 yards about 50% of the time. LMAO

RR you'll have to correct me on the MOA but I think I'm close. lol

I've only hit the same plate twice out of 13 shots with a Lyman .54 muzzle loader.

Now for the relevance of this is while being true I did make those shots(add in the 6" 41mag just because you don't believe it already). It doesn't mean that I'm ready to go to a F Class shoot with a 30-30 and think I'm going to win it or even place. Everything has a place but there's no such thing as absolutes. It just means that sometimes a blind hog gets and acorn and some days even a hunting rifle can make outstanding shots. There's just better equipment for the job at longer ranges.

Now if you ask me why I shoot such guns at those ranges I'll say just for the hell of it and it makes me laugh win I do ring the steel. Because I just bucked a lot of odds.

Although I do happen to like Jack O'Connor and enjoyed reading his articles, your above emboldened statement kinds of unravels everything else. It's kind of pointless to justify an argument based upon the written statements of an individual if you don't even know if he's correct. I think Jack had an amazing hunting and writing career in a business he loved. I think he makes valid observations about hunting, etc. that are quite useful.

Jack was an English and Journalism professor who became an Editor for a hunting magazine and did more hunting in more exotic climes and for more animals than probably all of us put together. His emphasis was on hunting and usually at 300 yards or less. His statement, taken in context, would tend to indicate he was talking about those parameters as they were the ones he was knowledgeable and proficient in. Or in other words, an apples to apples comparison.

It is not logical to infer or deduce that Jack intended his thin barrel statement to refer to competition shooting at 1,000 yards as he didn't compete at that level and didn't have experience there either. You may or may not have an opinion about shooting a thin barrel at such a distance but there's nothing to suggest that Jack did.

Jack was a tremendous writer and hunter with strong opinions about both. I respect him highly. However, I would still give greater credibility to some of the members of this board who do compete in F class as having more experience and knowledge in 1,000 shooting, ammo and gun requirements than Jack did. That's just logical and also common sense.


Edit--1,000 "YARD" shooting.

The minute you touch a round off you have put heat in that barrel, heat makes metal expand. The thinner the barrel the more movement you will have (basic knowledge).

I agree with your entire post Cal, but I snipped this piece out to add to that line of thinking...

One can argue that hunters don't have to depend on heavy barrels because they don't fire in quick succession like target shooters often do. However, I'll offer this up...

There are hunters-of-men that make a living behind a trigger, and literally live and die by connecting on their first shot. These men rely upon mobility, and therefore make every effort to minimize weight of their equipment, balancing functionality with efficiency. These men also have a massive resource base to design, build, test, and prove out the most effective weapon to accomplish their tasks.

If it's not blatantly apparent, I'm referring to our military's elite marksman forces.

Every sharpshooting unit in all branches build and issue customized heavy barreled rifles.

Collectively, the US military armorers have far more experience in producing efficient yet accurate 'hunting' rifles than any other person or group in the world. There IS a reason they use match grade heavy barrels.

Again, nobody is saying that lightweight barrels can't be incredibly accurate, but saying that they are equally accurate to a quality heavy barrel, it just isn't there...

very well said!
RR

I happen to agree completely NM.

I "thought" that's what was said (by some anyway) from the very beginning of this thread; minus all the drama !!!


Sure am glad "we" got to the bottom of that - LOL

Wow.... I don't want to go to Kansas and raise any hell. All those boys are shooting to less than 1 MOA at 300 yards with their deer rifles. I call BS. Sorry bro. Most people can't shoot to 4 MOA when you get them off the bench. Is this the Huntingnet site or is this the BenchShooting site? That would be 12" at 300 yards. I said most not all. So settle down before you even start please. I didn't say YOU, I said most. And if that was the case you would be putting 10" groups at 1,000 yards. That doesn't impress you guys from Kansas? Hard group to impress. This is shot with a 3000 dollar or more rifle. It's not me shooting either. Can't afford this kind of accuracy. If you shoot under 4 MOA. That would be close to 20" groups at 500 yards, and that's 16" groups at 400 yards, and 12" groups at 300 yards. 12" groups will kill most big game animals on this planet. I see a lot of testosterone on this site.


DanMorgan