good by Remington
 

Theres a new sherrif in town.
Remington has really slacked in the quality department for sometime now, I wont even buy another and havent for quite sometime.
The new savage, weatherby, tika, and winchesters have really steped up the game and I could not see why anyone would choose a rem givin the choices.
Weatherby is coming this year and bringing a champ.
http://www.weatherby.com/vanguards2/
all vanguards will be given the sub moa guarantee including sporters, stainless models will be available too.

Good buy - Remington
 

To each their own. My opinion is that there is nothing at all wrong with Remington.

I am glad that you have found equipment that you like, but I honestly don't understand threads that trash-mouth another man's equipment. What is the point?

Well of course if you buy a 770,710, or a base model 700 sps or a 870 express you are going to get a "low quality" rifle or SG, but what do you expect for 400$??? Is a stevens 200 or a mossberg any better? NO. Spend a few xtra bucks and get a 700 CDL,700MTLSS, or an 870 wingmaster. even a SPS stainless is a very nice quality rifle, and IMO has a nicer finish than a ruger or a savage 112.

I dont think theres anything wrong w/ giving specific examples of things you dont like about certain firearms and why.People are interested in others reviews of equipment. However just saying a company produces poor quality products is vague, subjective, and pointless.

Shame on you zrex, now all of the Remchester fanboys will come out of the woodwork to proclaim how awesome their super whiz bang Model 700 ABCD is, and how their quality isn't declining, oh well, when that's all you have experience with, and don't know any better......

And sticking up for a company which produces poor quality products is vague, subjective, and pointless :s4:

+1. Besides, I like Vanguards! LOL.

I'm not at all a Remington fan even though I have three of them, and have no complaints with them.....but sure wish one would back up their statements with specifics.....is that too much to ask?

My dog is better then your dog type comment IMO.



Whatever I own is best........................!

Blonds, brunettes & redheads which one is better ?



Ford, Chevy and Dodge all over again.........................

weatherby (howa) has been able to build a quality rifle for 400 bucks that any remington at any price cant compare to, thats a fact.
rem -3 piece bolt
VG -1 piece fluted and gas ported bolt
rem-machined round bar stock reciever
VG- cnc machined billet reciever with flat base and integral recoil lug
rem- extractor thats less then desirable
VG- m16 style extraction
rem- machined rifling barrel -I believe its button rifleing ( not sure)
VG- hammer forged barrel
rem -6" group guarantee ( yes when you send them back a gun that groups 4 inches theyll say thats within tolerance)
VG- sub moa guarantee
ad then theres that issue with the rem trigger.

Weatherby is not the quality piece you may think it is. For the past 20 years there have been numerous shortcuts, one of which is their firing pins. A bright, shinny stock doesn't make a quality firearm. You may want to buy a 700 Remington instead of the lesser model and get the quality you pay for.

And what shortcuts are these? I have never read of anyone having issues with the Vanguard or Howa 1500, sounds like you have never shot, nor compared one side to side with a Remchester. Don't think I have ever heard of a bolt handle breaking off of a Weatherby (because it's a one piece bolt) or the gun firing when the safety was switched off (a Remington tradition). Instead of posting unsubstantiated BS, please provide proof that the Weatherby is trash, and that the Rembeater is a superior product.

Please explain in greater detail. I'd like to hear about the numerous short cuts of the vanguard/Howa and the firing pin problem.

This should be good. We'll see if it's as good as the alleged Remington trigger issue.

Where is this decline in quality? I have several Remington 700's in various models, my oldest is my 338 Win Mag. according to the barrel code was made April 1988, my newest is my 300 Ultra Mag., barrel code said it was made May 2005. I see no noticable differences in quality between the two. They have the same triggers. The stocks maybe a little cheaper, but then when I look at my Sendero, it has a factory H.S. Precision stock on it, so go figure.

I have had a few VG's. Decent rifles, but no heirlooms. Crappy stocks, ok triggers. But generally, subMOA. Same as most A-bolts I have owned and built nearby.

And for a correction. remingtons spec is not 6" or 4". It depends on the caliber. Varmit guns are less than 1.5MOA. Magnums are 2MOA. I have been down this road of sending guns back to meet accuracy. And remington is really lacking in this department. But so will be weatherby. Been down that road too. Its so subjective, I rarely got any satisfaction. My biggest complaint has been rough copper fouling barrels.

The bottom line is, 700 action is legendary. If you pull all other parts off, you still have a great action.

I have to admit, I agree with zrex. I have about 10 700's and have owned probably 25 or more. My oldest is 1974, 1979, 1980 and 1983. These rifles have deep blueing. Quality blueing. Stocks are stable walnut, highly figured. Checkering is quality. Barrels smooth as Lilja barrels I have owned. Don't really copper foul. My 2000+ year 700's, expecially the 300RUM's I have owned have had the roughest barrels I have seen. Copper foul horribly within 8 rounds. Varying throat dimensions on freebore from 3.66" to 3.8". I went on a quest going around to guns stores measureing the throats on 300RUM's. All over the place. You would have thought they were weatherbys. Even had one 300RUM with crown not a perfect 90 degrees.

It just makes sense from here on out to buy a used ADL, or BDL on the cheap. Take to the smith, and have replumbed, with a McMillian stock. In the end, I have 1200 dollars in it, but got what I want.

Just cause the rifle is capable, doesnt meen that the people buying them are. The average person that buys one of these guns, or any gun for that matter, and thinks that because it will shoot sub moa, that they in turn can shoot sub moa, is sadly mistaken. You actually have to be able to shoot, that gun isnt going to make you a top shot.

Has to agree with Fritz on this one. Sometimes it's not the gun but who's shooting it or what they are shooting through it.

When you buy a $500 Remington 700 what are you expecting it to do? Shoot a .003 group at 100 yards? Highly unlikely that's going to happen. In truth a lot of serious bench rest shooters still build on a Remington action. So they must not be all that bad. I would assume if you want bench rest quality out of a standard hunting rifle then your going to be disappointed a lot.

I spend a ton of time on the reloading bench making shooters out of standard out of the box rifles. Saves a lot on gunsmithing. But some guns you do purchase are crap and have actual problems that need professional attention. Any rifle I've ever bought that needed serious help I sold it back to the gun shop. It's like the chevy/ford/dodge war if you buy enough of any of them you'll get a lemon one day.

If everyone loved Remingtons there would be no other rifle manufacturer's. Thats what makes the world go round.

What Remington has done to the Marlin rifles is proof enough that Remington quality has gone to the crapper. I don't even know how there is a basis for discussion.

Those Vangards are awfully enticing. I might buy one for my boy down the road.

Tom

Yeah, Remington sure messed up Marlin. LOL. How do you explain the X-7 ?, It is considered to be one of the most accurate production rifles out and wasnt made till after Remington aquired Marlin.

They all suck, buy a Sako if you want a quality rifle!! :biggrin:

btw...DODGE is better too!! :s3:

Actually it was supposedly designed while Marlin was still on their own.

That being said I agree with the OP. I see no reason to buy a Remington as every advantage to them, some other company has done better. That toppled with the fact that Remington seems to have a lot of quality issues with their newer products.

However, I've learned that on this forum you don't insult Remington or Leupold, as no matter what else is better, guys on this forum don't like to admit it and will argue forever that you are wrong or don't know what you are talking about if you don't like a Remington and top it with a Leupold scope.

It may have been designed then, but is now being built by Marlin who is owned by Remington, who people are claiming have poor quality control. LOL!! As I said Remington is the best thing to happen to Marlin, when was the last time Marlin was known for there accuracy?

actually its pretty much a savage clone, but who cares anyway, its a 300$ rifle! its like a walmart snow shovel, use till it breaks, toss it and buy a real gun.
Yeah the zillion who have bought them are all idiots right?
Wheres that rule? Paaleez, people bash everything here, especially remington, I couldnt care less if everyone in the world hates every gun I own. You mean like this?Attachment 15701 whats not to like?:s2:

+1...Out of all these "better" guns out there, the Remmy 700 is still used by US military snipers. And the most copied action for custom or competition actions on the market. Of which use the factory floorplate and tiggers and stocks and bases and stocks.

Some people won't like Remington...so what? You won't see me go out and buy an A-bolt or a Winchester 70 or a Tikka or Sako or......... :D

Fritz,

Read up on the subject. Saying that Remington is the best thing to happen to Marlin is like cancer is a good thing to happen to ????????.

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/i...ard,179.0.html

Just search around on google you'll find lots more.

My favorite is the Guide gun in blue that came with a stainless steel safety button. Almost like a pimped out ear ring or something.

My Pre-2008 Marlin Guide Gun is a true Marlin made by skilled tradesmen and women who took pride in what they made.

Ya'll can keep your Remington rifles. They are very adequate if not good guns. I just know that for my money I'm going to get more than Remington has to offer.

The argument that they're amazing because the 700 action is the platform for custom rifles and benchrest shooters doesn't hold water. So just leave that one at home. It's about cost. Not about quality. It's also a function of cost that there are so many aftermarket parts makers for the Remington action. More actions out there more potential to sell parts. Simple economics.

Anyhow a custom based on the Remington action doesn't have one stinkin Remington thing left in it by the time it's done. Other than the exterior of the action and even that usually gets a make over.

Tom

I haven't read through these in a while. Here's an intesting one where they put the recoil lug on backwards.

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/i...c,83362.0.html

Fritz,

There are even pretty little pictures for you to take a look at. Actually a lot of them include pictures.

Tom

Everyone has the right to their opinions, but a few on here don't consider others when they type insulting content in their anonymous posts. I doubt that they would be as willing to insult another hunters equipment face-to-face in a remote hunting camp.

Usually this type of post originates from someone that is "absolutely certain".

The problem doesn't lie with Remington, Marlin or any of their designs, but rather with the parent company that owns both of them as well as Bushmaster and DPMS. The true craftsmen who used their extensive knowledge of the product to build a quality gun, were all let go. Manufacturing was moved to a new location and now laborers are used to assemble the guns, and quotas have to be met in order to keep their jobs. This business model might work with other products where it's acceptable to have a certain percentage of returned items that don't work properly. The problem is that we're talking about a gun that's expected to contain an extremely high pressure controlled explosion while the bullet is propelled down the barrel. Gun manufacturing is serious business, they're not building blenders or fish tanks, they're building something that is right next to your face while it's experiencing over 55,000 psi of pressure. I'm a Marlin lever action fanatic and I'll be buying used guns in the future.

Lets see...ya walk in, pick up a rifle, handle it, operate it, look it over, buy it, probably shoot it. Then ya come to an open forum and whine about it cause its not made to the quality standards that you overlooked when ya bought it in the first place.

Ok I get it................

You're rifles will likely go up in value because I'm sure what has been happening will continue to happen because they won't see a return on their investment and will scale back. All the while never seeing that it's actually the horrible manufacturing that is killing them.

Tom

sure a rem can be made to shoot, lets see replace the bolt, action trued and squared, replace the barrel, bed the action, your now to the quility standard of a factory vanguard.

One reason the action is easy to copy is because its round and can be put in a lathe, not many builders have a CNC machine, and thats how vanguard and winchesters are made, in a CNC, they both have a flat base reciever, with huge square lugs, lay it in a quality stock and you have perfect reciever to stock fitment, oh wait the sub moa already does that, right from the factory.

99.9999 % of us arent gun builders, so for us factory guns are all were going to own, so we should pick one thats of quality, Rem aint one of them.

That's a statement!!!!!!!! Silver sodered(sp)

my next rifle will be a vanguard.i also have a 1951 721 i use on a regular basis,bone stock trigger set to 3lbs and i have never had any part of it fail.

Well said. I've had experience with older Remingtons, and they have all been fine guns that anyone would be proud to put their name on. However, every experience I've had with a Remington made in the last 3-4 years has been negative. That's what turned me off from them. I'd not hesitate to buy a Remington that was made 20 years ago.

While Savage, every experience I've had with new or old has been great.
Same with a few other companies.

Zrex,

I've seen several pictures of guys holding bolt handle in one hand remainder of bolt in the other.

As far as the parent holding company being the issue, no one can argue that problem. However they are Remington now. So unless someone with more money than they know what to do with comes by and makes an offer for Remington, the Remington you know today is the Remington that will always be.

Tom

I made my 2008' pencil barreled, un bedded, 700mtlss, shoot pretty good, by opening the box, and mounting a scope. Attachment 15744 but yeah I can see your point, I mean look at this thing pure junk!:biggrin: Attachment 15745 the VG has a custom barrel, bedded stock and blueprinted action, huh?
Lets not get carried away about the vanguard, it has a injection molded tupperware stock ,the higher end VGmodels and the new 1000$ winchesters, use a 100$ B&C kevlar stock. Were not talking micmillian stocks and lilja barrels here.

BTW didnt you buy a VG ZREX? I seem to remember you put a aftermarket stock on it, why would you replace such a "quality stock"?

Ive handled the VG and the new winny, theyre both decent rifles, the model 70 etreme weather are real nice and smooth, but Ive owned quite a few different brands, and nothing ive ever owned shoots ,looks and feels as good as a 700, but thats my opinon and the only one I can give.

Cant say much about the VG since I never bought one due to fact that I find them awkward and clunky.
Does remington have QC issues with a certain # of rfles they produce? absolutely! does savage, ruger, tikka, TC etc...? in my personal experience, yes. Question is, how many rifles does Remington produce a year? how many do other companies?

Im curious here... You've been all over the net bashing Nikon scopes and you've never owned one... but you did look thru one owned by your mother's brother's sister's uncle's cousin's stepbrother. How many Remington's do you own or have you owned? Who is putting the sugar in the Windex? Because you sure are doing a lot of window licking...

Hard to argue with much of what you wrote. My only issue is with the above. The B&C stock on the EW is an over $300 stock at least the last time I checked when I was pricing going this route.

It's an awesome stock. Much better than the typical B&C offerings. And minus the snob factor I'd put it up there with a McMillan easily.

Also I don't know how many of the new Winchesters you've shot but I've own two and handloaded for both. After the initital break in, both have shot 3/4 moa with every reload combination I put through them. Beyond that they both nearly shoot to the same POI for similar powders etc....

I have been very impressed. From what I've been reading on other forums folks are seeing about the same performance. At least those that are reporting.

So it's not a Lija barrel but it's a factory barrel that shoots pretty close to custom.

Tom