Judson

The other day I was thinking about somthing. The X ring on a target is one minuit of angle. This means that a 500 yard target has a 5" X ring. At a Rifle match, if you want to win you better hope all your shots are in the X ring. Now a deer has about an 18" vital area, maby alittle smaller. Now I am not picking on any one out there. Putting a bullet in a deers vital area at 500 yards does not qualify as expert shooting. I am not saying it is easy to shoot deer at these ranges, quite the oppisite, and unsucessful shots are judged not by lack of crome trophies but by crippled and lost game. With this long range stuff there are some inherant problems. Unless the deer goes right down or you have snow on the ground what are the chances of finding where the deer was and picking up a blood trail?
If you are shooting a 7mm Ultes and you miss judge the wind by about 2 MPH you just paunched or missed. Miss judge the distance, miss or blowen off leg ,maby a hit on the fringes. We also have to think about how far the deer can move during the bullets time of flight.
I shoot thousands of round a year from all types and calibers of rifles and I really do not think I or for that matter any body else has any business taking these long shots. I believe 300 yards with a modern flat shooting rifle is the limit, and even at that distance only if you practice shooting that distance alot.
This 500+yard stuff, I do not know what it is hunting is getting close and personal, kind of like bow hunting. It certanly is not target shooting as a good target shooter would never pick so large a target. Most of all I wonder how many animals are wounded and never found with this long range stuff. It does not impress me, what impresses me is the hunter that shows me the deer with powder burns on its coat.

bigcountry

I feel the same way way about it. I talked to some of the guys one the long range hunting page, and I don' t have any problems with what they do. I have never tried what they do so who am I to judge. And they claim to be successful. And if so, I say go for it. But I struggle with the wind.

stubblejumper

Since most deer only measure 18" or less from the top of the back to the bottom of the belly in the lung area the vital zone is far less than 18" .In reality you should be able to place your bullet into a target area about half that size in order to make quick clean kills.I limit myself to taking shots at game only at ranges that I practise on a regular basis and only then if a solid rest is available and the wind is weak or in a direction that will have little effect on the bullet path.I also use a laser rangefinder to verify the actual distance as it is easy to misjudge.With that being said I regularly take deer and other game at ranges out to 300 yards and will under the right conditions shoot out 400 and in perfect conditions out to 500 yards.Many people are quick to criticize a person that takes long range shots but the irony is that most( but certainly not all) of those criticizing seldom practise and are poor shooters themselves.Many of them shoot larger groups at 200 yards than I and several others at the local club do at 500 yards yet they judge all others by their own limitations.If everyone adopted the practise of never shooting at an animal under any conditions or ranges that they don' t regularly practise at the range there would be far less missed or wounded animals.

Briman

I would have to agree. I shoot high power and the 10 ring is a little over 2moa- we shoot our standing position at 200 yards. On a good day I can score in the high 90' s usually 97-98 from this position, on a bad day I' ll shoot shot somewhere in the high 80' s to low 90' s. This means I' m hitting a target about 1/3 the size of a deers vitals 8 0r 9 shots out of 10. I can shoot better standing with iron sights than most people in the woods can shoot from a benchrest using a scoped sporting rifle. With that said, I wouldn' t take a standing shot on a deer at that range- too much adrenalin, not enough time to make the shot, and not worth risking the shot.

If I were able to shoot prone or from some sort of solid rest with a properly sighted rifle, I wouldn' t have too many qualms about taking shots out to 400-500 yards provided that the deer wasn' t moving and there wasn' t any wind.

Judson

So far I see that in general you guys, girls, agree with me. I run into many people who do not though. I guess for them a wounded deer is a consilation prize. I shoot 200 yards and thus limit my self to 300 or under. Shooting a deer or any other big game animal at even these extended ranges is not what I consider hunting. No offence intended!!!! That is just shooting, I can not help but keep in mind that all of these animals were shot for food with flint locks at very close range. I hate to compair my hunting skills to those of way back, I do not even think I compaire. That was hunting and that is what it is all about!!!!!!!
Thanks for your imput, this sight is great!!!!!!!

stubblejumper

Actually only one of the three replies agreed with you.

Nomercy

I' ll disagree.

I shoot long ranges very often, I have a 1200yrd private range, use every inch of it from time to time, and have harvested game at half that range, 632yrd coyote, and a 491yrd whitetail have been my maximums thus far, some people can successfully hunt at long ranges, MOST people NEVER SHOULD!!

An 18" vital area, like you mentioned, is being very gracious, it might be that long, but not that tall, 8-12" being the usual height of the heart and lungs within the body, a full 12" is stretching it even quite a bit...I usually call them 8" --->8" diameter disc at 500yrds=2.0MOA, quite a feat at that distance with a sporting rifle. If you want to hunt with a target rifle, I might just let you, as it would be more punishment than pleasure or advantage, they' re God awful heavy! I now own two ' targets only rifles' [8D], and a few others that probably would do me well in competitions that have hunting denominations in their names, and have handled who knows how many in the past, and comparing them to a hunting rifle is like comparing apples to oranges, yeah, they' re both fruit, but that' s about the stint of it. Most hunting rifles would be lucky to get 2.0MOA at 100yrds, let alone maintain it at 500yrds. Most of the sporting rifles I' ve owned have taken at least $100 in work to drop below 2.0MOA at 400yrds, if they even got there. Also, shooting on a range is constant conditions, exact ranges are known, buck fever isn' t playing in (most br shooters are cooler than ice), the target isn' t moving, there aren' t trees in between you and your target, you' re sitting at a bench over a sandbag or bipod, wind is either minimal or trajectory affect is known, you' re using a 25x glass (too damn close for game-hunting, other than varmints that is), you' re not freezing your butt off or in a tree. Between having very poor conditions compared to range time, and having a rifle that won' t shoot as good of groups at 100yrds as a target rifle would at 3-400yrds, br shooting and hunting are two completely different animals. I can off-hand shoot a factory M-1Garand at 400yrds on 2MOA targets until I' m blue in the face, hit 90% or better, I know, I' ve done it, but I' ll guarantee that over 90% of hunters have never even fired a shot at a paper at 500yrds, most don' t even know what 400yrds looks like, and good they don' t, as they might try something stupid like shoot at a deer at 500yrds because they know their rifle is dead on at 100yrds, 3" low at 200yrds, and the trajectory tables say it should be 55" low at 500yrds, Thank God these idiots plumb miss most of the time.

Also, there are many cartridge/bullet combinations that make outstanding 300yrd or less deer cartridges that are simply NOT good for taking deer at longer ranges. a 400yrd kill shot with a 30-30WCF is unheard of, even if you can lob the bullet out there that far, it' s not going to be in good shape once it gets there to do the job.

No, from a BR standpoint, making a kill zone MOA shot at any range isn' t difficult, but like I said, apples and oranges, I can throw a .308win round out to 1000yrds and know what I' m hitting, I' m 98.2% hits on a 40" target with my sporterized mauser at that range, about 4MOA, and I' d shoot myself, if someone else didn' t, if I ever took a 1000yrd shot on a deer.

coyoteseeker

i think stubblejumper and nomercy said it right.if a shooter-hunter is well practiced (this builds confidence)under all conditions then long range shooting isn' t that big a deal.most shooters don' t have access to a range of 500 yards or even 300 for that matter.but all to often these folks attempt these types of shots with out ever shooting that range.without a full understanding of how wind,temp,humidity,altitude and gravity affect bullet flight.i built my own 500 yard range and like nomercy,have shot every square inch of it under all weather conditions with different bullet wieghts,bullet- powder combo' s all with the same rifle.a rifle thats been bedded and has had a trigger job.would i take a 500 yard shot on a deer?most likly not,but if conditions were perfect(they usauly never are)i would in a heart beat.would i take a 6 or 700 yard shot?ABSOLUTY NOT!!! becouse i have never practiced at those ranges,its that simple.if a shooter-hunter knows his or her limits and has complete confidence in there and there weapons abilty to stay with in those limits,there would be far less wounded game running around the woods.

mauser06

my friend is one of them long range shooters.....he killed 2 does at 540 some yards i think....his dad watched through the range finder and swears on his like it happend.....showed me where he sat and you could see the gut pile....with a 243!!!!!!!!! both were just luck shots...both hit the spine way back....its always windy there and they always shoot far....they tell me about how they shoot them on the run at 300....and they do.....but they also pack ATLEAST 2 boxes of ammo a piece for any given day...not a season.......a day.....just for deer hunting.....these guys all line up on a hill where deer run through on a bottom and blast away.....then someone tags it.....their normal deer has well over 5 hits in the bodys of the deer.....and if they dont fall before they are out of site they all must have missed....i dont call that hunting....that wouldnt even be fun....im out there to be close to my game...be in my games bedroom waiting...i like being close to nature...my normal deer shot average would be less then 30yds.....with my rifle...that is hunting....and to me impressive being i can get that close to deer all the time fooling their strong noses ears and eyes...but......to each man his own i guess.....and there are some cases there arent woods and thickets to hunt....like out west and such places where a far shot may be needed.....but i agree you can always keep them under 300 or so....after that way to much can cause problems for you....its just not worth it.....we owe it to the game we are after.....

woodseye

Remember all " really" long range hunters worth their powder use MATCH KINGS !