Nomercy

Sounds like a ' holier than thou' attitude if I' ve ever heard one. I' m tiring of this thread (moreso of it' s originator), but I' ll bite.

First of all, I will not say that you are a poor shot, I' ve never seen you shoot, but you won' t make me believe that you' re an above average, avid shooter by claiming to shoot ' thousands of rounds a year' , that' s really not much at all, not enough to impress me at any rate; on the year I run about an average of 300-500 centerfire rounds a week at paper/steel/cardboard, more in the summer, and a bit less in the winter, as frequent fire and deer hunting don' t coincide well. (not to mention the play I have weekly with rimfire .22lrs and at least once a month my SKS' s and other semiauto carbines.)

I don' t know exactly what you' re referring to when you call someone a ' needle blower' , I' m assuming someone who runs a 22cal or 7mm or other ' small caliber' and tries it on game at long ranges, I' ve used 7mm on deer, and they are fully capable of very long range shots, 22cals are not good for more than 85yrds where legal. My long range shooting is less done with a .22-250 than with a 30cal, all of my long range big game hunting is done with a 30cal, or larger. I don' t know what size of needles you sew with, but I wouldn' t call a .30-06, .308win or .300win mag a ' needle' , let alone the .416rigby that gave me that 491yrd 187# dressed weight doe.

I' ve taken 87% of my rifle-harvested deer at under 75yrds, and only a handful at 250+, the rest being somewhere in between those, the shortest being 7ft and the longest as mentioned above at 491yrds. Based on these performances, I don' t think my smell has much to do with why I am capable of taking long range hunting. As mentioned above, I own a 1200yrd range, in my serious hunting rifles, and my target rifles, I' ve often used the entire length of it, I have data collected for every shot taken by me on that range over 400yrds, most of my rifles' files contain data for various loads for every 50yrds for the length of it (or at least out to as far as they shoot accurately enough to hit my targets, shortest being 800yrds), for my favorite load in my favorite .30-06 that includes at least 10-5shot groups at 10yrd increments for the entire length of it. I do my homework off-range as well as on-range practicing, looking at a published data card or reading a reloading manual doesn' t count as ' looking at the downrange energy' of your rifle, analyzing your own data, interpreting and correlating it does.

I will never tell a beginner to ever expect to be able to ethically shoot a deer past 250-300yrds, as a beginner never should anyway, and probably 85% of experienced hunters should never surpass this mark, if for no other reason than their equipment limitations. BUT, there is no reason that I should be limited to crawl when I am fully capable and practiced at running, I' m by far not the best shooter in the nation, probably far from it in my state, but I know where my bullet is, and I know what it is capable of out to quite long distances, so why is it unethical to take the shot? Making a close shot isn' t hard, getting close is, I' ve proven time and time again I can get close. Getting within 500yrds of a deer isn' t hard, but analyzing the conditions, and being given the right opportunity to prove that your accuracy and range practice is good for more than just ringing steel is difficult, shooting well at 500yrds on paper on a range isn' t difficult, successfully harvesting a deer at 500yrds in the bush is.

Judson

You get your feelings hurt too easy!!! First you are the exception to the rule, if what you say is true, and I have no reason not to believe you then you prove my point. You say your longest shot was just under 500 yards on a deer. You shoot much further at targets etc and even with your experiance seem alittle hesitant to shoot much beyond that 500 mark. I will bet you know time to target and all that other stuff. I will also bet you have good equipement and have practiced with it. I will also bet that you put in more time at the range shooting then 99.99% of the people who hunt deer. Going along with this you seem to believe that many others are in your league, not true especially up here. If someone hunts they risk wounding and loosing an animal. It is up to us to do everything to minimimize that possiablity. Like I said you are the exception to the rule. I will not shoot at a deer or any other big game animal over 300 yards. Neither should 99+% of the hunters out there. By the way, are you aware of the energy that the Rigby has at that range? I am sure you are, it aint no thurty thurty is it, and alot flatter shooting then most would think. What type of rifle is it. I have to like you, your easy to get going, fun to argue with, in a friendly way and you like 7mm and the .416. By the way us still hunters all covered in cover scent don' t smell to good to people either.

Judson

The rifles I build will shoot 1/2 moa or less but these are hunting rifles for the most part. But I have a question for those that know, really two. Which do you favor, the NM M1A or the tuned up Grand and second part is why. There are pros and cons to both.

stubblejumper

Judson-I can' t answer your question but I will ask you to respond to my last post.I think there is a valid point to be addressed.

bigcountry

Quote
I am not alone in wishing that semi autos were not allowed in the woods. The problam with that is what get banned next?

why are busy bodies always worried about what another guy shoots in the woods. I could care less what you shoot, or about the accuracy of your rifles, or how much you practice, or how far you shot to get that deer, or eland. Why not worry about your own game. Worry about your own shot. What difference would it make in your world if they ban semi' s. Have you been inconvienced to the people that take multiple shots? have they robbed you of your pursuit of happiness in any way?

Briman

Judson, if you were to ask roughly the same question another way, you would get a totally different response from the people here. If you were to pose as someone who is new to the board as ask " what kind of rifle should I buy so I can shoot deer out to 500 yards?" You would get a response about ethics, the need to practice more, and all of the uncertainties and difficulties with taking such long shots. I feel you baited people in who are better shooters than most who are skilled enough to know when such shots are appropriate or not, and now you are getting upset with the answers you are getting. You are preaching to the wrong crowd.

AS far as seing people with the semiauto syndrome- I' ve seen alot of those in the woods also. Its alot like driving- you can teach someone to shoot or drive properly, but when you leave them to their own, they might speed along at 100 mph or feel the need to empty their magazine at the first running deer they see. Both are bad behavior, one is illegal in most places, but you wouldn' t ban a semiautorifle from hunting or a car that could do 100 mph, would you?

Can' t say I could tell you the difference between a tuned Garand and M1A, but I would prefer the Garand just because its a nicer looking rifle (in my eyes at least), I' ve shot the garand many times in the past and really like it, don' t care for the cheesey looking fiberglass handguard on the M1A, though I' m always aware of trying to keep my thumb intact when loading the garand.
I personally shoot an as-issued Smith Corona 03-A3 in matches, its as accurate as either of the semi-autos,shoots way better than an as-issued garand, didn' t cost me much, though the rear sight leaves a bit to be desired on the elevation adjustment.[8D]

woodseye

I think there has been some good points made by Jud and some from the long range guys.I feel hunting is a big sport with a lot of differing styles,driving,dog hunting,still hunting,stand sitting,and combinations of these.Its all hunting just done in differing styles and methods.The long range guys on this post aren' t advocating 1000-1500yd shooting like the 1000yd Williamsport benchrest guys do with 30# plus guns and benchrests sitting along the road shooting from one mountain to another but instead practice long and hard to make their guns and loads work at these above mentioned very realistic distances of up to 500yds.Thats not unreasonable for a well tuned rifle(heck we used to shoot chucks at 400 yds without sandbags or benches and just a bipod or tripod rest and a deers kill zone is about the size of a small chucks entire body or an adult with just his head sticking out of the hole!) They are just as skilled in their ways as the hunter you sneaks up and kills their deer at 20-30yds its just a different practiced and learned skill.We can all argue about who has the moral highground all day but the bottom line is to hunt legally and ethicly, be good at your chosen method,PRACTICE,and use the proper equipment for the job.

woods

Judson

Sorry I did not mean to neglect your question it is valid. An archer should not go around shooting at deer at for example 50-75 yards, I bow hunt and limit my shots to 25 or less. A person with a smoke pole should not try the 300 yard stuff and so on, you have to accept the limitations of what you hunt with and your abilities. Nomercy stated he would never shoot at a deer at 1,000 yards, and from what he said he is a far more experianced shooter then most out there.
Really this hole debate is not about long range shooting it is about hunting ethics and weather a deer means more to those who push the limits then just being a mere target. I do not care what you hunt with if making the shot is the chalange then shoot paper, if getting to the point where you have the shot is the chalange then more power to you and good luck

Judson

In some respects it effects all of us. Ever been to a deer yard in early winter? Check one out some time. Ever find a dead deer in the woods in the fall? Do not blame the coyotes. As a matter of fact though alot of guys out there are blasting me on this long range stuff If you notice they are talking about making 1 shot count. Not the first four or five. I am not really against semi autos, not my choice, I want accuracy and reliability. What I am against is the red neck that prays for the legalization of 20 round mags because " 5 ain' t enough for da stinking deer"
Think about it when someone dumps there .308 Rem 7400 at a deer they expended more energy then the average African hunter does with his shot to kill an Elephant with a .700 nitro, As a matter of fact, that .308 released nearly the energy of a .50 BMG, now talk about overkill!!

Judson

Thanks for your reply to my question, and I will keepin mind what you mentioned. I am not angry or anoyed with any of you, you are a great bunch to debate with. Most replies offer facts and opinions, and I must addmitt I am very impressed with the ethics and attitudes of most everyone out there. I wish that more people in the hunting fields/ like you guys. By the way, if you read my posts I am sure all you guys shoot better then I spell.
Yes that plastic hand guard is not nice to look at, neither is the box mag. With the 03 how do you handle the rapid fire string?