Roger that.


Here is a pic of the 147 grain .223 subsonic round, typically shot through a suppressed system. It is about the length of a 80 grain VLD lead bullet in .223.............very effective on deer, I have not shot anything larger with them. Check the link:

http://artactical.com/eve/forums/a/t...5/m/3021012072

Why are you intelligent men wasting your time with this ridiculous child?

Tom

Just trying to have an actual discussion, rather than a bunch of name calling. This type of post doesn't help.

Okay; first off S1 did not make the comment about the "gut shot" I did. I do not advocate this, I was refering tofeed back from hunters that have used our ammo. They mention making a "gut shot" to avoid meat loss from use of our ammo. To address the bone issue. The round requires hydraulic pressure ie "body fluid" to open and disperse in the wound cavity. Until body fluids are introduced via the hollow point in the round the round keeps on trucking. When the round impacts an object more dense that the core of the round itself ie stone, steel, etc. it does "disentegrate" on impact leaving just some copper jacketing and very little of that. The powder that makes up the core is so fine (320 micron mesh) it is actually finer than a ladies face powder, there is a negligible amount that would be ingested from meat harvested with this round. Yes, there are discrepencies in the article "Building a Better Bullet". We were not priveledged with the opportunity to review the article before publication, but by and large the article does a very good job of describing the technology behind and the results of use of this ammo. Which is why it is on our web site. Yes, the ammo has been in use by DefGru since the mid '90s. It cannot be approved for use by the frontline troops due to the Hague convention and the fact that it is a hollow point. Dr. Martin Fackler did in fact work on the Terminal ballistics of this round. Anyone who wishes to contact me off list, I will be glad to provide them with a picture of a soap block that Dr. Fackler shot with one of our 79 grain .223s showing the resulting wound cavity. The web site has been slow in getting fully published, this happens when working with someone who has too many irons in the fire and is not charging you anything. The new website should be up in the next week or so. We are not "hiding" anything or putting a load of BS out there. The gentleman who claims to have seen us at a Gun show, I would like to know where this was, as the only "Shows we have been involved in are the Arkansas Tactical Officers Conference, SWAT Roundup International, and Safari Club International Convention in Reno back in January, with the exception of a live fire demo for the American Sniper Association and Crosshairs.org in New Hampshire back in November. I'm not saying that he didn't see something like ours, but I do not know of any Gun Shows that we have been involved in. We have several hunters in Africa right now using our 300 WinMag on Plains Game. Yes, in the one testimonial on the web site the Deer did wander about 20 yards from where it was shot, and it was shot with a 79 grain not an 87 grain .223. The .223 is legal in South Carolina and he wished to try it, he said in his testimonial he would prefer using the heavier 87 grain in the future. The 79 grain .223 will work as an excellent Deer round but is on the small side for this application, thus the Deer wandering a short distance from point of shot. The 79 grain leaves a wound cavity slightly smaller than a football in size.

Come on you guys admit it, you aren't man enough to try these bullets. If you wereelite Seels you'd have top level security clearance to the Holy Grail, and the secret knowledge of how physics isn't exactly how it was taught in high school. A true Power Ranger would not question something like a bullet that wounds like a shotgun at point blank range by turning into metal particles yet retains enough energy to smash through bones- DUH!

Not being an elite Seel Power Ranger myself and only being a wannabe who salivates over the idea of gut shooting deer with bullets that may have been looked at once by the Secret Service, I do have one question for S1: do these bullets come with kneepads and ninja patches to put on my hunting coat ? I'm about to wet myself with excitement.

Thanks sharpone2, I believe this the type of info a lot of us like to read. I tried once to to have a civil discussion and it didnt work. As I said in my second reply in this post, I think this ammo is cool, and I understand that has some great uses. I will once again apologize to S1, in order to have a civil discussion about this ammo. I have also edited my previous post.

No problem, johnnybravoo. We have no problem with providing information when asked for. I can provide pictures of game taken with the ammo but all you would see would be dead game. I know for a fact that June of last year a sizeable Brown Bear was taken with our 300 WinMag and it was shoulder shot but the picture only shows a dead bear on the ground. What you would need to see are necropsy photos of game taken with the ammo and we unfortunately do not have any hunters willing to or able to perform this on the game they have taken with the ammo. S1 was correct in that there is footage on the show Expedition Safari of a Gemsbuck and a Vaal Rheebok taken with our ammo. The Gemsbuck was taken with one shot at a distance of 728 yards with our 300 WinMag. No, it did not run off but instead fell over on its side and tumbled down the hill it was standing on. Yes, the SS uses our 300 WinMag but we cannot provide documentation on this due to nondisclosure statements that we had to sign. I wish I could provide the documentation to you but that is the way it is. S1 did help in the development of the round along with Harold Beal the inventor, Dr. Martin Fackler, and Mark Carraci among others. Anyone wishing to contact me off list may do so for photos and such.

statjunk - You would not know intelligence if it steamrolled you. Your signature line says it all about you.......

"I have come to understand that I really enjoy learning things the hard way."


briman - Too many drugs and cartoons can be a bad combination. Sober up and seek professional help.


What you really have here is a bunch of egotists with absolutely zero experience or first hand knowledge trying to BS their way through a subject they know absolutely nothing about. What they should do is just shut up and learn, but their egos won't let them. Instead they falsely pontificate, make disparaging remarks, offer BS conjecture, or just outright lie. Here are just a few examples:


longrifle1000 - from page 1 - "The world is full of idiots, and this statement just proves it."

legion - from page 1 - "I didn't understand how a bullet that is less dense than lead and disintegrates on impact would be better for hunting or self-defense."
The truth is, the bullets are much denser than lead and don't disintegrate on impact.

jonnybravoo77 - from page 1 - "I beleive if you hit a bone directly; it would just splash. This would leave the deer with a broken leg, a gaping wound, and you would never find the deer."
The truth is, these bullets will easily penetrate the shoulder bone of moose, elk, and bear. I know because the animals are hanging on my wall. A deer shoulder is nothing compared to these larger animals with much tougher bone. I have killed countless deer with these bullets, and found everyone of them dead within 7 feet of where they were shot, most fell in their own tracks.

swampcollie - from page 2 - "I'm with you longrifle, I'd bet money it would splash on bone... heck its designed to splash."
Another sudo bet lost, and how would he know what the bullet was designed to do? More BS conjecture from someone who has zero idea and zero experience, just more disinformation.

swampcollie - from page 2 - "the rock salt/seasoning duck shot was a better idea than this."
More lies. These bullets are not an idea, they are products that work, and have been very successful for over a decade. More BS from someone who has no clue.

doedumper - from page 2 - "Yet another gimmick comes down the pipe"
How would this BS artist know if they were a gimmick? He has never ever shot one of these bullets. More BS from someone who has zero knowledge and zero first hand experience. I have over 100 one shot kills with bullets he thinks are a gimmick. If they are such a 'gimmick' why does he not put on a chest plate and vest and prove they are a gimmick? The dead elk on my wall don't think they are a gimmick. As a matter of fact the dead animals on my wall don't think at all. In this, they have much in common with doedumper.

oldsmellhound - from page 2 - " Might be great on varmits, but on medium-large game all I can see is a recipie for disaster..."
All this guy can see is his own fabricated BS. More BS and fear mongering thrown in for good measure. Not an ounce of truth in his irresponsible and false statement. Last I checked moose, elk, and Grizzly were not classified as "VARMINTS".



jonnybravoo77 - from page 2 - "Thesepeople have been playin in the bullsh*t for so long, I think they like the smell."
More disparaging BS from someone with zero first hand knowledge, and not even the slightest clue about what happens in the real world when a big game animal is killed with one shot by a DRT bullet.

doedumper - from page 3 - "Nothing like making a bad hit or a direct heavy bone hit and leaving a festering wound that will kill the animal....3 days later! Hell yeah...now we dont even have to gut them quarter them or nothing and the buzzards will be forever grateful!!
More histrionic crap from a liar that has never killed one animal with this technology. I have killed hundreds of animals with lead, and hundreds with tungsten. None of them took 3 days to die from a festering wound. The animals I have shot with tungsten die quicker than the ones shot with lead, and they don't run. I have found every single animal dead within a few minutes if not sooner. Once again real life experience shows this histrionic dribble of doedumper to be exactly what it is, more BS from someone who has no clue, or real world experience with the products he is spreading histrionic misinformation about.


As anyone can see every single disparaging remark about this technology and the people who have used it, was made by irresponsible types that collectively have not tested or fired one single bullet of this technology. Lies, misinformation and fear mongoring do not trump real world experience, and it NEVER WILL.

The lack of morality of people that spread this type of misinformation, and disparage the work of great men like Harold Beal, and Marty Fackler, some of the best ever in the ballistics world is shameful and disgusting. These cowards hide behind their keyboards and pretend to be experts, at the expense of the real experts like Marty Fackler and Harold Beal.

So show us you cowards, how many bullets have you designed and manufactured? How many core materials have you tested? How many hundreds of thousands of live rounds have you fired on return to battery guns? How many live tissue tests have you conducted? Please show your data and results, prove your expertise, show us the product you have designed that work so well.

Show us your products and expertise and tests, or shut the hell up.

The foolish rantings of 6 internet punks does not trump the lifetime of ballistics work of true professionals like Marty Fackler, Harold Beal, Bob McCoy, and Mark Caracci.

IT NEVER WILL.