I call b.s. on this statement also. You have any "scientific" evidence for this?

I could be wrong, I just wanted to get in on all this nonsense.

More b.s. If penetration is the only thing, why wouldn't we all use full jacketed bullets? Why do you think bullets are designed to mushroom?

Don't play games with me. A full metal jacket 9mm won't do the same thing that a full metal jacket 5.7 would do. How hard is that to understand?

When did I tell anyone to use FMJ? Why would you want to on an animal?

That was the example that sprang to mind where a smaller bullet moving faster outperformed a larger bullet moving slower.

Research the 5.7 yourself and you won't have to act confused and go off on these tangental arguments.

Exactly how many elk have you killed this spring? What exactly is your profession? You have a website you can point us to, or are there others on this board that can verify what you are saying?

Again, just trying to be a part of the nonsense.

By the way, I haven't seen any elk wearing class 3 body armour lately.

I joined this website to make friends, not enemies. However I do enjoy a spirited debate. I was recently injured, and now find myself in a physically handicapped position, but not a mentally handicapped position. And you are right about one thing I did have a hard time with physics in college, but I did end up with a B.

I find myself with Cascadedad, and I am not buying it either.

I have only shot 5 elk. 2 with ML, 1 with 45-70, 1 with 340 WM,and 1 with 30-06. All were shot at less than 150 yards, and none went 100 yards after shot.

I have discussed calibers with elk guides a couple of dozen times in my life time. You are the first guide that I have talked to who recommends a smaller caliber and bullet. I know quite a few elk hunters, and again you are the only one who says the smaller bullet is better. I have probably read 100 articles in my life about elk cartridges, again you are the first one who seems to think that smaller is adequate. I do agree with you that if a hunter can not handle a larger caliber or bullet that he should stay away from it, but what does that have to do with your charts.

I envy your position as a guide who gets to kill alot of elk, it must be a fun life. I am sure your "spring" comment was just a typo. I hope you get to shoot a monster, and do it for me, because my elk hunting days are probably over, but I can hope. Fortunately for me I have alot of good friends that will help me in my deer hunting endeavors. I am currently having a Kawasaki Mulemodified so that I can getback into the woods as soon as possible. Tom.

Head, sorry to hear about your injury. I hope you are back hunting in no time.

I came to this website primarily to learn, but I can't help jumping in when someone is spouting nonsense. These guys often answer with, "Show your proof!". But they make wild claims and then when they are called on it they can't answer.

Maybe BA can, I don't know. I don't buy into energy being the only factor. Bullet design factors in. Bullet diameter is also a factor. I think the point was already made. Why do LEO's prefer a .40 or .45 over a 9mm?

Somebody please tell me what body armor has to do with any of this?

I really like the 7mm's, and i love my custom 7 express Rem.... I've harvested aLOT of game with it, and it's served me well.... BUT, i have to admit, if i was going to use a cal for a steady diet of "bigger" game (read moose) i'd pick the 30-06 every time over the 7 express/280... I don't give a crap what the load tables say!

Only proof i have, is the 25 years of hunting big animials in Alaska and another 20years + in otherstates and Canada... I reload everything and rarely buy factory ammo, and in my life when it came to guns, money was "nearly" no object, because if i wanted it i figured out how to get it! PEROID!!

So, all the proof i can offer is my years of hunting with all of the cals mentioned in this thread so far, andmany more for weeks at a time in the bush, a few months out of every year...

BTW, "If" being paid by the goverment to shoot animials makes you a pro, i've done that too so i guess ? i'm a pro???

DM

Sorry I do get a little fired up at times.

That wasn't a typo, I'm not a guide I'm an agent more like. And yes, it's a blast!


Don't mistake me: I'm not saying a smaller bullet is better but neither am I saying a bigger bullet it better. They will do damage just the same and as far as the "ballistic ideal" it's an accepted fact that the 7mm is closer to ideal.

Good luck to you. No matter what you want to do be it hunting or whatever you can find a way. I hope you get out there soon.

Bullet design does factor in and I've never said anything that can even be construed as the contrary. That is why I always say that a bullet designed for big game will kill in any caliber be it 7mm, 260 or .338.

Bullet diameter isn't a factor in theory, but mass is. If diameter matteredwe would still be lobbing giant cannon balls instead of pushing very small projectiles very fast.

Look at the 270 WSM. It pushes a 150 gr bullet over 3000 fps and makes more energy than a .308 using a 180 gr bullet.

The 5.7 is .223 caliberand in 40 gr. FMJit can penetrate class III body armor while a 150 gr. 9mm FMJ cannot. So I ask you: whyisn't the bigger bullet better performer?

Because the 5.7 is going 2200 fps out of a pistol and the 9mm is barely making 1000 fps. This causes the 5.7 to make as much energy as a 9mm with a bullet almost1/4ththe mass.

So in answer to your question: the LEO's prefer a .45 over a 9mm because it makes more energy at 50 than a 9mm does at the muzzle! Believe me, if they could get that kind of energy out of a smaller diamter bullet (which they can it's the .357 SIG) then I'm sure they'd be all for getting it.

Why do they prefer the .45 over the .357 mag? The mag makes more energy but it doesn't come in a convient 11 round magazine or compact rapid fire package...until the SIG.

But then you get into the politics of "pet" cartridges etc....



In the kinetic energy equation, velocity is squared where mass is not.


What I haven't touched on is how bullet design transfers that kinetic energy into the target but that is a whole nother discussion.

I'll leave it at this: bigger bullet is not always better. Kinetic energy and transferring that kinetic energy into the target is the king.