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Does the military not teach???

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Does the military not teach???

Old 05-20-2006, 08:25 PM
  #1  
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Default Does the military not teach???

much about ballistics and related topics?

As a result of being in the business (hunting/fishing)off and onfor over 20years I often deal with many military people, but before 9/11 (and really didn't see all that many vets from Desert Storm) most of the military guys I dealt with were either retired or had been into hunting/shooting for many years in addition to being in the military. Most of them seemed to have at least a working knowledge of ballistics, caliber, terminal performance etc...

The reason I ask is that lately I have been coming into contact with a fair number of Iraq/Afghan vets, most of which the full timers are still in their 20s-30s. But almost too the man, unless they didn't have prior gun/hunting/shooting experience before joining the military many of them are nearly clueless or have ALOT to learn and understand about basic ballistic theory.

One such case happened too me yesterday, I had a kid come into the store and started asking about .375 H&Hs. Being in west TN we certainly don't have much call for such a caliber, I showed him the closest thing I had (.325WSM A-bolt Hunter Field) and then began asking him where he was going and what he was hunting (expecting to hear about bears in AK/CD or an African trip). I had to hold back a laugh when he said that a good buddy of his was from CO and that he was going to go elk hunting with him there this fall...

Now I'm NOT bagging on these kids nor our military. I LOVE EM and THANK GOD we have them, I care about each and every one of them and thank them personally for their service when I meet em. But I just see such a large percentage of the military guys nearly in complete blindness about what I consider to be basic ballistic theory and hunting arms knowledge. The kid was under the assumption that a .375 would be a great round not because of it's knockdown and legendary penetration, but because since it was bigger than most then it must be a better long range weapon. He also hinted at it as "probably being a great western caliber"? Without laughing or being rude, I spent about 20 minutes with him and explained a few basic things too him and why he should perhaps look at other tools for the job. Like I said, he's certainly not the first and wont be the last.

Again, NO disrespect for our finest. I just have to wonder just how much time the military honestly spends with these kids on the range and in the classroom with their guns?
RA
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Old 05-20-2006, 08:52 PM
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Default RE: Does the military not teach???

Glad you had a discussion with this individual and hopefully you educated him.
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Instead of laughing someone off, you educated him. Good for you. I try to do the same as well.Education on firearms and hunting goes a long way. Thank you for educating. Keep it up!
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Old 05-20-2006, 09:02 PM
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Default RE: Does the military not teach???

I've been on the retired list for a few years... not too many, so hopefully someone on the board in a current unit will respond. I recently heard we ran out of money to do annual range qual in Iowa units. Well, I did an active duty stint in the USMC and Army both, and about 16 Guard years. Ballistics of the weapon were reviewed, as well as zeroing and shooting from various positions. Having been in both services, I think the USMC honestly did a much better job. We snapped in for a week before doing our actual range fire, and had a range that had targets up to 500m. I think soldiers have an understanding of their assigned weapons and how to employ them. However, unless they have an interest in shooting as a hobby or sport, they may have very little knowledge about sporting arms and their capabilities. So indeed they may little knowledge or even misconceptions about the old classic 375 Holland and Holland. Predates most of them by many decades, too. Military weapons systems are always changing. Eg, 50 Cal BMG's are in less use because jet attack aircraft are harder to hit due to high speed. Alot to keep up with.
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Old 05-20-2006, 10:07 PM
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Default RE: Does the military not teach???

Hmmm,

Craig Boddington (ex-military man too) has taken more elk with a 375 H&H than anything else.
It is one of my favoirites as well.
It is not a short range weapon by any means.
The numbers alone are not impressive.
The results are devastating.... 300grains has a way of making things happen.
Easy to shoot, relatively light recoil.
I think it would make the young man a fine weapon, assuming he has more than .223 experience..

The 375 H&His a classic.
One rifle, One Planet, Holland's 375.
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Old 05-20-2006, 10:17 PM
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Default RE: Does the military not teach???

ahahah funny you post something like this RA......you must missed all my posts about a "American Military Expirience" college class i took this spring semester......both teachers were sergeant first class in rank.....i know one was still active duty and just got back from Iraq not long ago..that guy in particular tried feeding me all kindsaaaaaa BS....saying how the 223 and the m16 are the greatest thing out there and have more stopping power then any other weapon out there blah blah blahhhh and the enemy general shoots an AK-47 which fire a 308 wincherster round etc...which is pretty false....most run of the mill AKs fire a 7.62x.39...during that discussion he asked what round an AK fired and i told him..7.62x.39....and hes like well....does anyone know the CIVILLIAN name for it? its a 308 winchester! i was shocked...they know what they know from their time in service.....no doubt about that....and know and preach what theyve been told.....but when it comes to anything else it seems that a good bit dont know peas from carrots when it comes to ballistics etc.....i dont know about you guys....but last time i checked the ballistics i rather fire a 30cal moving around 2800fps then a .223 at 3000-3200fps...and telling us that the m16s are the most accurate weapons any of us will fire...personally breaking down their own m16s in class showed me their weapons are quite sloppy(they were NEW weapons also....very new fired once prior i think)...and they even told us in class one day..military equipment isnt great....its made by the lowest bidder...(that was a diffrent class period but they said it!) i wanted to take in one of our hand built AR-15s at the range day...but i wasnt a member of the range we went to...ill shoot smiley faces all over their targets...i was going to take the second class my college offers..but when i found out that guy was teaching i opted to pick up another class from my major....no sense in me suffering....no correcting him...he tried to be little me every chance he got because he knew i knew my stuff....like when he saw my target at the range....i didnt fire a great group....but i fired the ONLY group(alot of the kids dont have shooting expirience...alot had blank targets..not their fault) but i was the first to fire on the line and first done and had a nice little group..nothing to write home about but compared to the other targets i looked like a pro...but he looks at my target and says oh ya...your bad guy wouldnt have any legs left...the 10rd group was low and center...weapons were brand new never zeroed(if they do such things!) and you can clearly tell the sights need to be adjusted! and he trys to make me look bad.....HA...ill have fun in my extra major class in the fall.......
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Old 05-20-2006, 10:31 PM
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Default RE: Does the military not teach???

Well, about the only thing they really teach you in Basic Marksmanship Training is, one shot-one kill, and aim center mass. There is no discussion on ballistics and bullet drop and why you zero at 25 meters so that at 250-300 meters you will have the same sight picture based on bullet drop etc. No mention of ballistics, just lock, load, sight picture and shoot. Now with the Urban Conflicts, they have red dots, laser and other sighting aperatures. So when you go to the range, nothing about sight picture and accuracy and center mass. Aim, put the dot or scope on target and squeeze, if you get a chance to sight and are not laying down lead to avoid getting shot yourself. No Red, nothing on ballistics unless you would be chosen to go to sniper school, and since never been cant say what the Army sschool so not sure what they teach, but no, nothing about calibers, only biggest gun must mean I can drop anything.[&:]
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Old 05-20-2006, 11:11 PM
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Nontypical Buck
 
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Default RE: Does the military not teach???

It all depends on your job description. When I was in, I only learned the basics because I was in an artillery unit. But you can bet your ass Iknew how todo my job to the letter. I have a friend that was a sniper that hasFORGOTTEN more than most of us will ever learn about "ballistics and related topics". When he first started telling me about howhe uses the heat vapors coming up from the ground to judge his windage and where he was going to aim for his kill shot, I thought he was full of chit. I've known him alot longer now and I know he is for real, and I can't wait for the basic lessons he is planning on giving me this summer. Our military does alot better job than some might think, but there isno way they have the time or the money to train the cook to be an expert in ballistics.
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Old 05-21-2006, 12:18 AM
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Nontypical Buck
 
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Default RE: Does the military not teach???

ORIGINAL: Colorado Luckydog

It all depends on your job description. When I was in, I only learned the basics because I was in an artillery unit. But you can bet your ass Iknew how todo my job to the letter. I have a friend that was a sniper that hasFORGOTTEN more than most of us will ever learn about "ballistics and related topics". When he first started telling me about howhe uses the heat vapors coming up from the ground to judge his windage and where he was going to aim for his kill shot, I thought he was full of chit. I've known him alot longer now and I know he is for real, and I can't wait for the basic lessons he is planning on giving me this summer. Our military does alot better job than some might think, but there isno way they have the time or the money to train the cook to be an expert in ballistics.
Artillery myself, so ballastics on big bullets and stuff I can work with you. But yes I heard that heat waves and stuff can be used, but they go to school for months and you are right it is there job. So they learn all about it. I know because I reload and read on it.

What happens, you get a kid that is never held a gun till the military, gets fascinated with them, and doesn't have a mentor like the rest of us had, so he listens to his buddy that talks all about the .375 H&H and .50 Cal and the rest, and he wants one cause he has a pocket full of money after being here, and he has seen all the weapons over here or there, whereever. THese are the ones I think Red runs in to, the ones that have held a M16A2, first time in their life holding a gun, and like most of us who got it at an early age, get hooked on em. Trouble is never had the aunt, uncle, mom or dad that took them to the range or the field or the outdoors and so they haven't a clue.[&:]
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Old 05-21-2006, 04:16 AM
  #9  
Nontypical Buck
 
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Default RE: Does the military not teach???

That is right ,not everyone gets trained on the weapons. I was in the 75th rangers and I can tell you we know every thing about the weapons we used. They train all personal to fire a m16 for combat reasons. It is the unit that counts ,all fire power if needed that includes the cooks and supply. I would really hate to hand one of my army brothers a m16 and he couldnt help me defend ourselves. At that point run is not in your vocabulary----shoot or die. I am glad you took some time with him , he probably only shot to qualify and never gave it much thought after that.It is easy for you to get that way in the service. Most have only seen a rifle on TV tell they get there. I pulled a drill sargent duty as my last military stint and it just amazed me ( since I am just an old farm boy ) how many had never hunted or fished !!!!!!!! I guess that is the city life. I would go crazy not being able to deer hunt or flathead fish.
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Old 05-21-2006, 04:41 AM
  #10  
Nontypical Buck
 
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Default RE: Does the military not teach???

ORIGINAL: DANTHEHUNTER

That is right ,not everyone gets trained on the weapons. I was in the 75th rangers and I can tell you we know every thing about the weapons we used. They train all personal to fire a m16 for combat reasons. It is the unit that counts ,all fire power if needed that includes the cooks and supply. I would really hate to hand one of my army brothers a m16 and he couldnt help me defend ourselves. At that point run is not in your vocabulary----shoot or die. I am glad you took some time with him , he probably only shot to qualify and never gave it much thought after that.It is easy for you to get that way in the service. Most have only seen a rifle on TV tell they get there. I pulled a drill sargent duty as my last military stint and it just amazed me ( since I am just an old farm boy ) how many had never hunted or fished !!!!!!!! I guess that is the city life. I would go crazy not being able to deer hunt or flathead fish.
Amen, I was a Hillbilly, Redneck caught in the big city, eeeeeeeewwwwwwwwww, but I knew my guns, and I learn more each day on ballistics, and what gun to use, too much, too little...... [8D]
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