Does the military not teach???
06-23-2006, 01:02 PM
#21
Join Date: May 2006
Location:
Posts: 317
RE: Does the military not teach???
I took a friend of mine who was in the Army and National Guard for years to the holy grail of gun ranges, the NRA range in thier headquarters outside of D.C. I brought a 22 and my 7mm mag. I shot the 7mag first. I let my friend shoot it next. He loaded the gun, took one shot then unloaded the gun. I was wondering what he was doing when he turned around and blood was running down his face. The scope kicked back and hit his safety glasses hard enough to cut him. I felt bad. I assumed he had shot a lot of guns but in the military, buthe never shot a gun with a scope. Most guys qualify once on a weapon and never shoot it again until it's required. They only get experience on military weapons, the military has no use for knowing the ballistics of civilian weapons. If I would have had an M16 I'm sure he would have out shot me.
07-20-2006, 08:00 PM
#22
Fork Horn
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location:
Posts: 157
RE: Does the military not teach???
I'm currently enlisted in the Air Force and stuck in Afghanastan for the third time. A lot of the guys and girls in the military are city kids now a days. Country boysand girls used to be the norm. They don't get the bug early like we did. So they don't make a point to soak up every thing about the sport and the fire arms. They know what they were tought and that is all most times. My gunner tried to tell me that the GAU-2 Mini onMY chopper shot the same thing as an AK. AK's fire 7.62x39 and Mini's fire 7.62 NATO or 7.62x51(308 Win). I could not convince him other wise until i showed him the two rounds side by side. It's his job to know thesethings, i am aCrew Chief.I also have a buddy that fought over here as aScout Sniper when this first kicked off. He said that they go into every aspect of shooting very indepth. I can out shoot him though.
But he is one scary, sneaky SOB. I watched him crawl to less than 50yds of a couple of Whitetail Does before he shot one. Numbers are down all over. None of the branches make enlistment quota and they still want to cut the number we have. All the training our people get is enough to function, any thing else they pick upis up to them or a good superviser.
But he is one scary, sneaky SOB. I watched him crawl to less than 50yds of a couple of Whitetail Does before he shot one. Numbers are down all over. None of the branches make enlistment quota and they still want to cut the number we have. All the training our people get is enough to function, any thing else they pick upis up to them or a good superviser.
07-21-2006, 11:55 PM
#23
Fork Horn
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Amarillo, TX
Posts: 456
RE: Does the military not teach???
i am active duty army. i dont care for the sarcasim that i am feeling on this topic.
if you have a problem with what our Soldiers and Marines are being taught, talk to your congressman. itsthe liberal yahoos in washington that are taking away bit by bit the financing to have me and my peers trained in what you think is important.
since i'm not in a line unit, basic rifle marksmanship (brm) is not a priorty. its only required that I qualify with a M16 once per year. and most of the time when its time for qualification the units dont have the funding to go. My fellow Soldiers and Marines that are risking thier life on the front line have priorty over me.
So take it up with h. clinton, kerry and kennedy and ask for more funding to train YOUR nations fighting force on ballistics and shooting.
if you have a problem with what our Soldiers and Marines are being taught, talk to your congressman. itsthe liberal yahoos in washington that are taking away bit by bit the financing to have me and my peers trained in what you think is important.
since i'm not in a line unit, basic rifle marksmanship (brm) is not a priorty. its only required that I qualify with a M16 once per year. and most of the time when its time for qualification the units dont have the funding to go. My fellow Soldiers and Marines that are risking thier life on the front line have priorty over me.
So take it up with h. clinton, kerry and kennedy and ask for more funding to train YOUR nations fighting force on ballistics and shooting.
07-22-2006, 09:07 AM
#24
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Texas - BUT NOW in Madison County, NY
Posts: 6,270
RE: Does the military not teach???
ORIGINAL: RedAllison
much about ballistics and related topics?
As a result of being in the business (hunting/fishing)off and onfor over 20years I often deal with many military people, but before 9/11 (and really didn't see all that many vets from Desert Storm) most of the military guys I dealt with were either retired or had been into hunting/shooting for many years in addition to being in the military. Most of them seemed to have at least a working knowledge of ballistics, caliber, terminal performance etc...
The reason I ask is that lately I have been coming into contact with a fair number of Iraq/Afghan vets, most of which the full timers are still in their 20s-30s. But almost too the man, unless they didn't have prior gun/hunting/shooting experience before joining the military many of them are nearly clueless or have ALOT to learn and understand about basic ballistic theory.
One such case happened too me yesterday, I had a kid come into the store and started asking about .375 H&Hs. Being in west TN we certainly don't have much call for such a caliber, I showed him the closest thing I had (.325WSM A-bolt Hunter Field) and then began asking him where he was going and what he was hunting (expecting to hear about bears in AK/CD or an African trip). I had to hold back a laugh when he said that a good buddy of his was from CO and that he was going to go elk hunting with him there this fall...
Now I'm NOT bagging on these kids nor our military. I LOVE EM and THANK GOD we have them, I care about each and every one of them and thank them personally for their service when I meet em. But I just see such a large percentage of the military guys nearly in complete blindness about what I consider to be basic ballistic theory and hunting arms knowledge. The kid was under the assumption that a .375 would be a great round not because of it's knockdown and legendary penetration, but because since it was bigger than most then it must be a better long range weapon. He also hinted at it as "probably being a great western caliber"? Without laughing or being rude, I spent about 20 minutes with him and explained a few basic things too him and why he should perhaps look at other tools for the job. Like I said, he's certainly not the first and wont be the last.
Again, NO disrespect for our finest. I just have to wonder just how much time the military honestly spends with these kids on the range and in the classroom with their guns?
RA
much about ballistics and related topics?
As a result of being in the business (hunting/fishing)off and onfor over 20years I often deal with many military people, but before 9/11 (and really didn't see all that many vets from Desert Storm) most of the military guys I dealt with were either retired or had been into hunting/shooting for many years in addition to being in the military. Most of them seemed to have at least a working knowledge of ballistics, caliber, terminal performance etc...
The reason I ask is that lately I have been coming into contact with a fair number of Iraq/Afghan vets, most of which the full timers are still in their 20s-30s. But almost too the man, unless they didn't have prior gun/hunting/shooting experience before joining the military many of them are nearly clueless or have ALOT to learn and understand about basic ballistic theory.
One such case happened too me yesterday, I had a kid come into the store and started asking about .375 H&Hs. Being in west TN we certainly don't have much call for such a caliber, I showed him the closest thing I had (.325WSM A-bolt Hunter Field) and then began asking him where he was going and what he was hunting (expecting to hear about bears in AK/CD or an African trip). I had to hold back a laugh when he said that a good buddy of his was from CO and that he was going to go elk hunting with him there this fall...
Now I'm NOT bagging on these kids nor our military. I LOVE EM and THANK GOD we have them, I care about each and every one of them and thank them personally for their service when I meet em. But I just see such a large percentage of the military guys nearly in complete blindness about what I consider to be basic ballistic theory and hunting arms knowledge. The kid was under the assumption that a .375 would be a great round not because of it's knockdown and legendary penetration, but because since it was bigger than most then it must be a better long range weapon. He also hinted at it as "probably being a great western caliber"? Without laughing or being rude, I spent about 20 minutes with him and explained a few basic things too him and why he should perhaps look at other tools for the job. Like I said, he's certainly not the first and wont be the last.
Again, NO disrespect for our finest. I just have to wonder just how much time the military honestly spends with these kids on the range and in the classroom with their guns?
RA
But don't for one minute believe that it is easy to apply what they've learned whern the bullets tstart flying, or worse, there's large-caliber incoming! Unfortunately, most recruits don't get ENOUGH small-arms training and practice for weapons use to become instinctive to the point that it is automatic/subconscious when the shooting starts! (If the new guy survives long enough, he/she does acquire this kill, however! Note that most KIA's happen during the first 10 days to 2 weeks of exposure to the enemy. If a grunt makes it through the first month uninjured, he has a pretty good chance of coming home alive.
(BTW, there is nothing at all ignorant or dumb about the idea of using a .375 H&H for elk hunting! It is indeed on the high end for such use, but many an old-time elk hunter has ended up opting for one, in hopes that it might keep a big bull from getting away with a hole in it's anatomy. The last time I zeroed in my elk rifles at the Meeker CO gun club range just before opening day of the local elk season, there were at least three guys there [locals!!] with .375's. If you use properly loaded spitzer bullets of 250 grains or more in the .375 H&H, it shoots just flat as a .30/'06, so it is every bit as useful for western hunting as an '06 or equivalent. Granted, that big bullet is not really needed for much other than coastal brownies or an occasional LARGE grizzly....)
07-22-2006, 05:25 PM
#25
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 3,240
RE: Does the military not teach???
ORIGINAL: dkhamner
i am active duty army. i dont care for the sarcasim that i am feeling on this topic.
if you have a problem with what our Soldiers and Marines are being taught, talk to your congressman. itsthe liberal yahoos in washington that are taking away bit by bit the financing to have me and my peers trained in what you think is important.
since i'm not in a line unit, basic rifle marksmanship (brm) is not a priorty. its only required that I qualify with a M16 once per year. and most of the time when its time for qualification the units dont have the funding to go. My fellow Soldiers and Marines that are risking thier life on the front line have priorty over me.
So take it up with h. clinton, kerry and kennedy and ask for more funding to train YOUR nations fighting force on ballistics and shooting.
i am active duty army. i dont care for the sarcasim that i am feeling on this topic.
if you have a problem with what our Soldiers and Marines are being taught, talk to your congressman. itsthe liberal yahoos in washington that are taking away bit by bit the financing to have me and my peers trained in what you think is important.
since i'm not in a line unit, basic rifle marksmanship (brm) is not a priorty. its only required that I qualify with a M16 once per year. and most of the time when its time for qualification the units dont have the funding to go. My fellow Soldiers and Marines that are risking thier life on the front line have priorty over me.
So take it up with h. clinton, kerry and kennedy and ask for more funding to train YOUR nations fighting force on ballistics and shooting.
07-31-2006, 01:37 PM
#26
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location:
Posts: 571
RE: Does the military not teach???
As a USMC PMI I can attest to the training Marines receive, ballistics are taught in great detail for service rifles. Taking that aside you will always have your 10% who do not know but choose to BS which gives a bad name to those military professionals who know what they are doing. I am not entertaining the reservest population as they do not have the time for proper instuction or application. Beyond their service weapons there is no real need to study ballistic charts, it would be a point of personal interest.
For you critics I welcome a challange, rather than mocking lack of obscureballistic knowledge, why doyou not try properly clearinga hostile occupied room? Can you tell me a little about that? How about distance estimation without your laser rangefinder? Explain proper field sanitation? How would you survive an ambush? Hopefully we all get the point here. Their job does not require extreme ballistic knowledge outside of 5.56 x 45, 7.62 x 51, and the .50 BMG more or less, and if they are just starting to take an interest in it why shun them from a sport that is having a hard time attracting members?
For you critics I welcome a challange, rather than mocking lack of obscureballistic knowledge, why doyou not try properly clearinga hostile occupied room? Can you tell me a little about that? How about distance estimation without your laser rangefinder? Explain proper field sanitation? How would you survive an ambush? Hopefully we all get the point here. Their job does not require extreme ballistic knowledge outside of 5.56 x 45, 7.62 x 51, and the .50 BMG more or less, and if they are just starting to take an interest in it why shun them from a sport that is having a hard time attracting members?
