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12GA From Hell

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12GA From Hell

Old 04-22-2015, 07:28 AM
  #541  
Fork Horn
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Here is picture of our NEF 12ga FH with Hogue Compstock. It has the
recoiling cam and springs in the hollow butt plus some weght,



Here is a variety of slugs and bullets that fit in the 12ga dangerous
game slug, lock on sabot. BPI sells that DG slug.

.

There is couple 585 videos on Swann Gunsmithing's Facebook site;
Of our 585HE in first Ruger #1, that was done in Australia.It was set up
for the poster Tankhunter on the AR big bore forums. That gun killed the
first AUS buff, killed by a 585HE, that I posted picture of above. You can
go direct to the page and click on the videos to watch the test firings..

https://www.facebook.com/swanbarrels/videos


Here is picture our 585HE in a Montana PH action in a MPI stock, with the
style of a CZ stock and metal will be finished with a Gun Kote finish.





Here is picture of a 585HE we did in a Mauser 98 as a
singleshot test gun. We used a composite stock we
adapted to fit action. Weighted to 12 lbs.
Enfield in back, you can see it is longer.



And speaking of singleshots a fellow in the Yukon is
just finishing up one in a Ruger #1.And the 24hr Campfire
forum has over a million views of this thread, ..ED
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Old 04-22-2015, 05:30 PM
  #542  
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While I could see the point for these things in an Elephant, Rhino, or Cape Buffalo hunt, I can see absolutely no reason at all going after a Whitetail Deer that weighs not much more than the damn cartridge for these cannons. I mean seriously hubel, who in their right mind would carry one of these things into the field for whitetail? You keep saying "shotgun only" states but I would have to doubt very seriously the legality of one of these things in IL if one got caught. Not to mention, who in the hell would want to lug a 20-30 pound firearm hunting? I would tend to think if Johnny Law snatched you up and they said "this aint legal boy" they aren't going to listen to someone saying "But your Honor, Huble458 on the internet thing said it was"!
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Old 04-22-2015, 07:16 PM
  #543  
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The one legal for shotgun we mostlytalk about is 24ga that weighs ten lbs.

Gun is marked 24ga, fires 24 ga cases, plastic or brass, cases
marked 24 ga. The more p[owerful 585 HE case I don't promote
for shotgun areas. I never have for shotgun areas.

And guys in TX and FL shot couple deer with lighter 585HE in NEF
break actions with lighter Minie bullets, loaded down,
going slower, about like power of 58cal ML loaded heavy with Minie bullet.
Fun way to hunt, Big bores way much more fun than peashooters.

Example;
We use the 12ga NEF Ultra above for deer hunting, lengthen chamber
in its heavy barrel to use 3.5" cases and get double the energy, with brass
cases, all legal for shotgun only and still manageable to shoot.
Weighs about 11 lbs. Still get 50% more energy with 3.5" plastic cases.

But if a guy takes that NEF and adds 10-15lbs, or puts on a tripod, or
a Aimpoint sight, or paints it purple, or puts on muzzle brake, adds a
$2000 scope, or hangs flashlight under the barrel, etc;
It is still a legal shotgun for shotgun only deer hunting everywhere,
no matter how game wardens, naysayers, smallgun folks feel.. ED

Last edited by hubel458; 04-23-2015 at 08:06 AM.
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Old 04-23-2015, 09:18 PM
  #544  
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And therein lies the question Ed, at what point does a "slug gun" in all intents and purposes become a rifle? Granted a BIG bore rifle but still a rifle. You are surpassing all the factory made slugs energy levels by 50 percent or more, you are surpassing the factory slugs speeds by a minimum of 35% and in general you are skirting the legality issues by stamping 24ga on some of these but in all reality you are simply making Big Bore rifles. Plain and simple.

Far be it from me to deny ANYONE to shoot whatever they want to shoot. I have a few big bore rifles up to and including a Krieghoff 500NE Double that will break the shoulder of anyone not ready for some serious bite. Got lucky at an auction a few years back and won it for $1500 and could easily sell it for well over $10,000 but I like the dang mule kicking sob. Absolutely beautiful rifle and works perfectly for Bison! Not a whole hell of a lot of difference between what you are shooting and a 500NE round. You think Johnny law would let it go by if I had my barrel stamped 24ga? I don't think so bud. And if they were to inspect one of those things you are promoting up here I would find it hard to believe they would let it pass here in IL either.
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Old 04-24-2015, 01:57 AM
  #545  
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Well of course they wouldn't let a 500NE go by if stamped 24ga,

as a 24ga case wouldn't fit the chamber, and the barrel bore is not 24ga size.

But our 24ga has a 24ga chamber and bore, and fits 24ga cases you can reload

and loaded factory 24ga rounds. BPI and Precision Reloading sell 24ga plastic and

brass cases the go in the chamber. We just made a stronger brass case that

can be loaded heavier. Rocky Mtn Cart makes brass cases that can be

loaded heavier in 24ga and all shotgun calbers. Either are legal cases.

Your 500NE loaded at factory about 2000 fps, but modern non balloon head cases

they can be loaded a third faster if you want. No difference in concept.

Factory hotrod sabot loads for 12 and 20 ga have over 50% more energy than

old foster slug loads, legal for both them and us to do it...

Plastic shotgun cases take a certain pressure, magtech brass takes 50% more,

our cases and Rocky Mtn cases take twice the pressure as plastic.

You can find some aluminum shotgun cases that take 50-70% more than plastic.

All legal. BPI and others sell sabots, slugs and stuff that gets reloaded to twice

the energy of factory loads, all legal........
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:04 PM
  #546  
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The 12ga FH isn't the first wildcat case built on BMG brass, it was preceded by
target rounds like the necked down 338 Talbot, the cut off 700 DKT for big game,
necked down to .416 and . 458, and more, but the following one was way
before them, in my favorite rifle caliber, for .585" bullets.

One of first modern era 585 caliber wildcats, since WW2, the 575 Miller-Greiss Magnum,
was first mentioned in the fifties, It was made from BMG brass shortened to 2.70" long
and necked up from 50 cal to .585". But actually if cut off first, it would be annealed, necked
down to hold 585 bullet. Fairly sharp shoulder.

They rebated the rim quite a ways down to .618" to maybe fit 98 Mauser bolt.
Maybe used a special hogged out, reworked action. Listed as
shooting 750gr bullet about 2400 fps. It holds about 150gr of ball powder under
a 750 gr bullet, maybe little less than 3" 50cal spotter case, where our 585HE holds
180gr under a 750gr'.

We made one for experimenting on a full length BMG case.With rim left same as the base
and would need a BMG or PH sized bolt and action. I'm glad to be a big bore wildcatter,
and happy to be in the company of big bore nuts, old and new. Years ago when guys did
big wildcats on BMGs, they took what was available, full length BMGs to rework, and but
maybe back then they could have used the 3" BMG spotter case, by shortening the neck,
if they could have found couple barrels full.

But it takes a lot of work to reform and shorten cases that much like M&G, with the multiple dies,
multiple annealings, and case trimming and extreme reworking of regular rifle actions,
which is why I like our 585 case, simple and straight, any regular, long bolt action, or
falling blocks, break actions, etc, a 585 good for dozen or more heavy loadings,
and moderate loads, last forever..

For our 585HE , made it a size, actually new belted size, to fit regular size, long bolt guns,
(not BMG actions)that didn't have to be used from tripod so to speak, and could be put in a favorite
gun of many, the Ruger #1, other falling blocks, without taking metal out of the feed trough.
To get the same and/or more powder space as a cut back, really shortened, BMG case, like M&G,
wildcatted to 585, or other short cases, we made longer case and worked with guys
with a group buy, to get a factory run made. A miracle. We thank all gun nuts for the help.

Here is picture from the great site, cartridgecollector dot net, of the M&G Mag .Ed

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Old 06-25-2015, 04:19 AM
  #547  
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The question is, how long before states that require shotgun only decide that a gun that for all intent and purpose is more rifle than shotgun is not going to be legal in shotgun only areas or shotgun only states. When a brass case is loaded with a single projectile and is loaded into a firearm with a rifled barrel, and that brass casing (cartridge) was made for that specific firearm, is that firearm still a shotgun or is it a rifle? I believe the case can easily be made that it is a rifle doing what a rifle was meant to do, and that is to fire bullets, not shot. I suspect if this comes to the attention of shotgun only states or states with shotgun only areas, they will call it a rifle.

Last edited by Oldtimr; 06-25-2015 at 04:27 AM.
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Old 06-25-2015, 07:02 AM
  #548  
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Originally Posted by Oldtimr
The question is, how long before states that require shotgun only decide that a gun that for all intent and purpose is more rifle than shotgun is not going to be legal in shotgun only areas or shotgun only states. When a brass case is loaded with a single projectile and is loaded into a firearm with a rifled barrel, and that brass casing (cartridge) was made for that specific firearm, is that firearm still a shotgun or is it a rifle? I believe the case can easily be made that it is a rifle doing what a rifle was meant to do, and that is to fire bullets, not shot. I suspect if this comes to the attention of shotgun only states or states with shotgun only areas, they will call it a rifle.
A 12ga is forever and always a 12ga, even when loaded with a single slug and a brass case. A plastic or paper hull does not a shotgun make. Most "shotgun only" states also only allow slugs anyway, so the single projectile thing is a moot point.

I suppose it's worth pointing out as well, most of the "shotgun only" states are adopting a "straight wall cartridge" policy as well, so I don't think it'll be many years before that point becomes completely moot.

For what it's worth, Ed's been working on this thing for a long time and there's a reason that there really aren't a ton of them in the field (no insult). Custom rifles in custom cartridges are a rarity anyway, let alone a cartridge like this that's a bit more thump than the average Joe really needs, so with the cost of Ed's toys compared to something like the Savage 212, nobody is buying one of his "guns" for shotgunning whitetails in Ohio (hate saying "gun" but a No. 1 is a rifle, a 12ga is a shotgun - what's a 12ga No.1?)...

Last edited by Nomercy448; 06-25-2015 at 07:07 AM.
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Old 06-25-2015, 12:52 PM
  #549  
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Actually, there are several states that allow buckshot for deer, including PA in some areas, so single projectile is not a moot point. The word shotgun has a meaning, the fact that ammo was made to allow a shotgun shoot single projectile ammo doesn't change that. However, a rifled barreld gun that is made to shoot cartridges with bullets instead of rifled slugs could very easily beconsidered a rifle, not a shotgun, even though it is designated by gauge instead of caliber. Some states could well consider a 24 gauge gun a rifle if it has a rifled barrel when using a metalic or plastic casing and loaded with a bullet instead of a rifled slug which is the case here if I understood what I read. I have alreaded sent an e-mail to the PGC to see what their interpretation is on it for our state.

Last edited by Oldtimr; 06-25-2015 at 12:58 PM.
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Old 06-25-2015, 01:29 PM
  #550  
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Oldtimr---It will be interesting to see what happens with this rig because it certainly seems to me that it is purposely designed to circumvent the law.
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