I just don't get the point of using small calibers on game animals! The only legitimate argument FOR small calibers, is recoil, and there are many ways around recoil problems, WITHOUT using small calibers!
Really, are we trying to set a world record for killing a deer at the longest range, with the smallest projectile possible???

No sir. In order for an object to pass through another it needs velocity, energy is derived from velocity.
I'll say it again, energy doesnt kill.
4000lbs if kinetic energy doesnt kill any faster than 70lbs.
By this I mean a big gun compared to a bow and arrow.
Just because one rifle shows more energy, doesnt mean it kills any better than a rifle with little energy. To an extent of course.
I know what your saying though, it takes energy to move a bullet or tosling an arrow. But thats not what we are talking about. were talking aboutkinetic energy.

Becuase big calibers are big game rifles, and you just dont need a child shooting a big game cartridge for a little 'ol deer.

Of course bullet construction plays a big part, but what your talking about above is usually associated with high velocity. slower heavy bullets just dont do that type of damage.

Thanks Wyoming,
That smile over her deer is priceless to me

[quote]ORIGINAL: zrexpilot
Horse feathers!!!!
You are comparing apples to oranges!
Arrows kill by cutting, bullets kill by shock (energy transfer)

BINGO!!! But some people don't seem to understand that concept

Horse ****!
Death is caused by blood loss, cardiac arrest or neorologic trauma ( sp)
An arow kills the same way a bullet does.

DannyD

I am sure your daugther gets her good looks from her mother!
Great pic. Theres a smile that can't be faked.

It looks like along with every other post on this forum, it has turned into a battle about a whole different subject and your qestion was forgottenabout. lol. Sorry

After reading most of it, and most of all your posts, I would say that IMO it's not your daugther that wants or needs a new rifle. That its you that WANTS HER to have it. I know she is young, but if she tells you that she is alright with the 30-30, then let her be. I am sure if the recoil gets to be too much that she would tell you. I also agree with some of the others that maybe you shouldn't make her shoot so many rounds with the 30-30 at the range if she is already accurate with the rifle.

You say that you are watching her while she shoots. Well, I am sure that if I watched you while you shot,you would have some sort of flinch also. Most, if not all of us do. I have a flinch with my .270 that has nothing to do with recoil or noise. Its the movement of the firing pin (back of the bolt) that causes me to blink when it moves. The blinking of my eye causes me to flinch.

I would saythe pictureyou postedshouldprove to you that shes accurate with the 30-30.

Now, getting into the heated battle. Ipersonaly don't think you should use a.223 for deer. Its kinda like shooting the same size bulletat a deer that I shoot at squirells,just with a lot more velocity. I think that SC also has a law against shooting deer with any .22 caliber.

I know a guy who uses a 22-250 to shoot deer with. I will not hunt with this guy b/c I seen him have to chase the deer down and shoot it in the head or shoot it again with buck shot or pistol or whatever to kill it. He is a great shot and can shoot with most competitive shooters. So its not the shot placement. I've seen the bullet completely turn the shoulder into jelly and others blow out a hole the size of a bowling ball. And the deer STILL had to be chased down and shot again. I think that this is veryinhumane for the deer. As someone statedabove, use a bigger caliber that will have a better chance of killing the deer quicker.

I think if your daughter would see a deer suffer, espbeing a girl. She wouldn't want to hunt anymore.IMO you really raisethe odds of this happening with such a small caliber. You even said it yourself that you would like to use it for varmiting, didn't you? That should have answered your question on caliber right there.

Also the comments about a deer not being a big game animal. Its the biggest damn animal in SC or at least the part of SC that I hunt, other thanhogs. Yes there are moose and elk out west that out weigh a deer, but I don't think its fair to say that a deer isn't a big gamed animal.

Look at it this way, if you knew you were going to be shot and killed by an avg. joe (hunter). Would you want to be shot with a bullet that would probably make you suffer for a good amount of time or would you like to go ahead and get it over with. Yes, bigger bullets can also cause suffering, but its less likely.

Danny, I think Strut has a good point there. At least a .260 to start with on deer
or 6.5mmSwede which are real close. I think a .30-30 is alittle to much for her
right now.