I'm beginning to think this site...
 

is getting an overly opinionated audience of pansies who fear anykind of caliber larger than a 30/06 and God forbid it contain the word "magnum" in its title.

I simply can't understand where it comes from, if a man is interested, wants, already uses or recommends a magnum too another hunter what in the world is wrong with that? Are some so small, weak and "skeert" that they fear something with over 70 grains of smokeless powder in it will render itself, the shooter and any bystander within one block of it DEAD with one mere pull of the trigger? God forbid if that mag has a muzzlebrake on it, hell if one listens too some they might believe such rigs are capable of producing mushroom clouds at the shot!

Now I'm not talking about the guys who chose NOT to shoot mags for various reasons, they aren't the people who seem to pipe up and downplay mags. Not every caliber I have in my safe and carry afield is a magnum, BUT alot are and I enjoy them. In the areas I hunt there must be ALOT of guys who feel like I do as well because ALOT of WSMs, WBY MAGs and the various "supermags" are getting alot of use and recommendations. So where are all these guys on here that constantly bash magnums and their owners or anyone interested in one?

If a man is content and adequate with his 30/30 then that is FINE by me and he is welcome in my camp anytime. BUT I likewise expect common courtesy when I whip out my whizbang, laserflat, supersmasher. I just can't understand why a few on here can't get over such choices and choose to put modern technology too work for them in what is supposed to be a "recreational pastime". I thought we ALL needed to stick together for our sport to survive, but sheesh what chances do our kids have when a few among the populace can't even stand for someone to have a gun that is more capable than their chosen weapon of choice?


RA

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well said

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Well, back at ya![8D]

Everyone's entitled to an opinion, like it or not. This is like politics, the people that are the most vocal are on the extremes. Some like magnums extremely well, some had magnums extremely bad. I'm not a magnum guy, but I've got no use for one. Not to say I mightnot own one in the future, but right now I can't afford to shoot anything that requires one.

[8D]
Jeff

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IMO a magnum is a excuse for poor hunting skills for SOME .
I am to lazy to get any closer or I can't tell 200 from 400 so I will just shoot this big BOOMER

Some like the amount of blood shot meat they get
Others it is a ego thing ,mine will shoot farther and faster than yours

I shoot a 257 AI for deer and a 338/06 for anything bigger.
I have never had to shoot a deer or anything else farther than 300 yds so I see no need for a magnum.

Johnch

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I am one of the ones that don't have any magnum cartridges in my gun cabinet. No need to really. If someone wants to use a Mag, Supermag, whatever, its their choice. I shoot a .30-06 and an 8mm Mauser. There is really no NEED for anything larger, though it would probably be nice in certain situations, and I doubt I will have a chance anytime soon to chase the big bears. It just seems like there are a lot of people out there, some I know personally, some I don't, are getting more and more lazy by the year. I have had people tell me they won't pull the trigger on something if they can't basically step out of the truck, drop it, pick it up, and walk back to the truck. People who seem to have lost the skill of hunting, and hope they can make that up by being able to shoot a little farther when the animals just won't stay close to the road. Problem is, people don't take the time to practice with these cartridges (or any other cartridge for that matter), which ends up with a lot of wounded game.Once, I watched a personshoot a deer, watched the deer run up a hill, with a group, and watch the deer fall down (probably after a solid 300 yards or so, I would imagine the shot was in the neighborhood of 300 yards still), and the hunters do nothing about it. We go and tell the people that the deer went down, and they are like "Oh, well, we didn't see it." So we went and told the GW, but by that time itmay have been too late anyway.

Sorry to be so long winded, but my beef with these new Magnums is not the guns themselves, but the lack of disipline people use when they get one, and the way companies market them to sound like they are the greatest things since sliced bread.

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Red are you trying to say there are to many opinionated people ,to quick to judge others by thier own preferences and toself envolvedto realize that most shooters could care less that they don't like what thier shooting . Is that what your trying to say ? well just spit it on out .

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Well said, Red.... Well said! I can go anywhere, deep into the woods, into the thickest of heavy brush and not worry one bit. This trusty rifle of mine will drop anything in its tracks within 100 yards easy. A niceold Marlin 30AS 30-30 with an even older Glenfield 4x32 scope on a weaver base.

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u guys think that a rifle kicks try a old ten gauge double barrel, ive seen 400 pound guys get their shoulder knock out of place them.

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I guess I must have missed allot of this controversy but I don’t see any reason why what one hunter uses should bother another. So one guy likes to use a magnum and the other doesn’t. SO WHAT. To each his own.

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Its generally the same ole audience echoing the same thing about magnums. Very small crowd. Some have very valid points. But all who scream against just don't get the simple point. And that is once you have any centerfire that produces over 1000ft-lbs of energy, your overkill and have a significant advantage over deer and anything over that is just plain fun. It also very bothersome for some people not shoot what they shoot. It makes them feel inferior. You know how I know? Cause when I couldn't afford anything but one gun, a 270win, I dogged anyone coming into deer camp that had anything greater. Why? I was young, jealous, and all the sudden my 270 felt very inadequate. Now over the years, of course I have found this not to be true aquireing 10 to 20 different caliber's. Its all just fun.

If Mossy was reading this, he would just say, "it doesn't matter how many guns you have, BC your still only going to take that stupid slug gun out".:D. I have been on this sluggun kick for 3 or 4 years now and he likes to make fun of me. Hey, don't mess with anything when you are on a roll.

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Well said Red .I personally feel that many people hate the magnums simply because they have never used them.Then there are those that are intimidated by the recoil of some magnums.Lastly there are those people that don't have the shootingskills to take advantage of any flat shooting cartridge be it a magnum or not.As to the part about the magnum shooters being lazy and lacking hunting skills,I hunt big gameonly with magnum rifles but I do hunt with and have been successful with a bow and arrow which requires much closer ranges and the skill to get within thosecloser ranges.

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I've used a .300 H&H and a .300 Win Mag as well as a .338 Win Mag for years to hunt elk and African plains game. Then I witnessed a guy using a .30-06 on an Eland and it went down like it was hit with a lot more gun. Same thing with an Gemsbok and the rest is just a matter of asking.....what do I use the bigger guns for.....and the answer was not forthcoming. The real reason I like the .30-06 is that it's available in a lightweight M-70 featherweight rifle and I like the lighter guns. Further I can get 2,800'/sec in a 22" barrel and 180 grain bullets in the old '06 and that's serious power so now the magnums stay in the rack and the ole '06 goes hunting because it is clearly enough gun and it's lighter to carry.....

If one chooses to use more gun that's ok with me.....but I'll continue to make my point about the great old cartridge in the lightweight package.

If one chooses a heavier gun he might as well get a .300 Magnum and have the extra twenty yards of range in his hands.

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I don't carry anything under 44 caliber 'cause i don't want to get eaten. So no 30 06, all due respect to this grand and proven cartridge.

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I have no problem with any large rifle cartridge but I refuse to call them magnums, that is simply a marketing word for suckers. I have seen a lot of hunters that can effectively use the added power of larger cartridges, butI have seen far more "once a year shooters" who can't hit the ground with one, and are afraid of their rifle to boot! Unless I KNOW the person, and their abilities,I won't recommend more cartridge than an average shooter can handle.

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I get into my share of these debates but it all from expirence. I have had many more than my share of Magnum rifles. Two 338's Five 7MM Rem Mags, Three 300 Win Mags and a 300 Weatherby Mag as well as a 416 Remington Mag. I have also hunted a lot with my Uncles 375 H&H although I have never owned one. He let me keep it for doing his reloading. If he needed it he would come and get it so I never needed to buy one. My bad shoulder which I am going to have to have changed this winter, won't stand to much recoil any more so I don't shoot the big guns much. I am probably done with trips to Africa, and the Artic circle so I probably won't need them again. However when the debate starts for me is just the opposite from Red A. I brissel a bit when people tell youngsters that they need a Magnum in order to hunt big game. This is crap. A decent shot with a 270, 280, 308 or 30-06 can take all game in NA without any problem. Many on this site have done it and know that this is true. My 45-70 will take anything on the planet out and thats why I still have them. I don't care what rifle people shoot and as a Guide for several years, I have seen game taken with rifles from 22 Hornet to 458 Mag. I have seen people who have wounded game show up with a bigger rifle every year. Their LUCK didn't change with the caliber. There are poor shots and poor hunters out there carring every caliber made. Show me a hunter who shoots well with whatever the are using and I will show you a successful hunter. I will However argue every time someone insists that it takes a Magnum or any big boomer to take NA game.;)I know better, I have done it and seen it done. My pet peeve is the FEW that think a Magnum makes 500 yard shots doable for anyone. If a guy can't hit a critter with a 280 at that range then he sure ain't gonna hit it with Mr whizbang either.

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magnums arent required, but they are better if the shooter does his part and can handle it. There are more slob hunters shooting 30-30, 30-06,308 and 270 than 300mags....by the same margin that those rifles outnumber the 300mags. More people useing them = more slob hunters. The shooters part is made easier w/ a magnum, they kill better w/ all other factors being equal. The problem w/ these boards is that everyone is a one shot-crack shot-drop em in their tracks - never lost an animal-never missed a shot-never placed a bad shot, hunter;). (Yeah ...right.)When everyone is so perfect no one needs another caliber. If you dont beleive that the power over 1000lbs makes a difference, try useing a 243 on elk, a 223 on big northern deer, or 250 savage on griz. you may do fine, for a while...but sooner or later...[:@]trouble will come your way.

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I have no use for magnums now, though I have owned one in the past (for Elk and Mule Deer). It makes no difference to me what any other shooters or hunters choose to use. It is certainly true that magnum rounds are unnecessary for most game. However, if that is what an individual wants and enjoys, so be it.

I wonder, could it be that the starter of this thread...who has complained so forcefully that others are, in essence, persecuting those who like magnums.... is a bit too sensitive on this issue ? If those people who express an opinion that is counter to his are such "pansies" (as he describes them)....then why would their opinions matter to him at all ? Obviously they do, or he would not be so upset. Could it be then, that he is not really convinced himself about the "need" for magnum rounds ? Or, could he just be intolerant....yet complaining about other's intolerance ?

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I guess I missed the printed facts about the nunber of slob hunters who use non Magnums. The Margin of error theory never flew with me and never will, You can gut or leg shoot a critter with any caliber and I would venture to say its done as much with Magnums as with 243's. I would never go after a Grizzley with my 250 Savage but have and would again with the 30-06 and 200 grain Partitions or the 45-70 with 475 grain loads.

Nobody with or without a Magnum rifles does the old perfect shot every time but a good hit with any rifle with enough power to get the vitals will do the job. 270 or 300 Win Mag. Makes no difference. I have hit enough critters with both calibers to know this for a fact.

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How dead dose the game need to be ?
Inside 300 yds where 98% of game is shot is the same bullet going 2800 fps compaired to 3300 fps a muzzel going to kill the game any better if both hit the lungs ?

I have seen a 160 lb deer hit thru both shoulders with a 7 rem mag at 60 yds and the whole front 1/2 was blood shot

IMO too many guys feel the the exrta speed some how helps their shooting skill.

Lets face it way to many of the general shooting public don't shoot enough to use even the 270 or 30-06 in full.
Way to many of them see some show where a hunter shoots a deer at 400 yds with somesuper duper magnum rifle and it falls over ( great editing or luck) dead.
They then go out and buy that cal thinking thats they just bought a magic wand.
They then buy 2 boxs of ammo (some only 1 ) to sight it in and hunt with.
How is the " magnum" any better than a 30-06 in their hands ?
The extra BANG and recoil will start them flinching .
More deer will be gut shot and lost .
Then some do gooder will raise a stink about slob hunter and try to close down the seasons .

How many guys spend enough time on the range ( not the bench) to use the big boomers past what a 308 could give them ?
IMO 1 in 50 maybe

Not saying there is no need , just not the hype the mags give them to sell there adds.

Give me 20 hunters with 7-08 to 30-06 rifles against 20 with Magnums and I bet more meat is put on the table by the first group and if a deer is lost it's by the 2 group thru a miss in wind drift or hold over.

JOhnch

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My experience suggests. Of course, this is just deer country around here, so it probably doesn't hold true for all areas. But on average, the folks around here that typically shoot the best and kill the cleanest do it with smaller calibers. Several use .222's, and the range is on up to 25-06 and 270. These folks have guns they like to shoot, so they shoot them often. I know of some others that use bigger rifles. Like Charley said:

They are afraid of their rifles. They bought a rifle that has noticeable recoil, and they don't like to shoot it. I hadn't really given it much thought until a fewfolks were watching me shoot my .223 for target practice. I got a few of them shooting, and they had a flinch that was unreal. After about 20 or so rounds, they got to where they could shoot some pretty nice groups. One of them had his son there, and I never could talk him into shooting it. He was afraid it would kick like his dad's rifle. I asked them if they wanted to shoot their rifle some before hunting, and it was a universal "No."

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I don't own a magnum rifle, but certainly don't hold it against someone for hunting with one, as long asthey are proficient with it. My beef is with the sports writers of magazines, tv showsetc...(not all of them)that are pounding it into "new" hunters heads that bigger is better. A lot of new hunters areeasilyswayedand believe this crap. They get the mentality that they NEED a magnum rifle to kill a deer, so they go out and buy the lastest big boomer. And, for the most of them, onevery short session at the range and they develop a flinchresulting in pooraccuracy and, if their ego is too big to downsize, can result inwounded and lost game. For the record,I live in ky and hunt whitetails with a .308.

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If you want meat go buy a steer. I am out there for a trophy, not meat. Beef tastes better anyway. Not saying I waste the meat. You are probably right by saying you will put more meat on the table but I would argue that we put more heads on the wall. You can go to the grocery store for meat.

'this outta be gas on the fire'

For the record, proud owner of a weatherby accumark 30-378.
Well said NVMIKE

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Gorse if getting jumped EVERYTIME I or another poster recommends or even mentions a magnum too someone constitutes being "sensitive" then yeah call me whatever you please. The simple fact is it gets VERY old, rediculous and only shows the naysayers ignorance. I for one do NOT recommend (nor have I ever willingly) recommended larger guns too young shooters.

1000 ft#s, where did that theortical number come from? Does that mean that a deer shoot with only 800#s is gonna limp off and die a week later? Why also, does everyone have to redicule those who take deer at over 300yds? Another theoretical number which I think is bunk. Who set the those numbers and how did they arrive at them? See what I mean? It's arguement over hypothetical and purely random selections and numerical values.

"Inside 300yds, inside 300yds, inside 300yds" Is this the ONLY standard of comparison? And for those who either live in states that prohibit arms that reach out that far, why does that give you "carte blanche" to redicule those of us who have the freedom and ability to hunt areas that command a much larger viewing area and more possible shot opportunities? For the guys who say, "If you can't get any closer than XYZ (again a purely randomly obtained and hypothetical range) you are a sorry hunter or just plain suck!" What kind of attitude is that? I for one enjoy sitting up during firearms seasons and watch many crossings and travel routes from a single vantage point as opposed to sitting in close quarters and watching only 1 or 2 possible travel routes. Alot of guys also complain about needing to move into the woods after opening day anyway which adds more fodder too their collection for their obsession with getting closer and not needing to shoot very far. Well perhaps if you completely stayed out of the woods and simply setup in a location that offers viewing of multiple travel corridors you would then realize that bucks WILL move all season long under daylight conditions and you just might need to whack one at 400+ yds?

It's all relative and what works for brush hunters in PA might not be as effective for large southern food plots and vice-versa. I was just trying to bring out the fact that it is getting old to constantly be rediculed for offering a suggestion too someone who actually asked for recommendations in the first place. I thought that's part of what this place was for in the first place... a place where ideas and information could be exchanged WITHOUT redicule, belittlement and thread highjackin?

I'm a deathly serious bowhunter by nature, my first deer was killed with a bow when I was 13 and I have a couple of P&Y class bucks to be thankful for. I LOVE getting close and get that fix during bowseason (both were killed inside of 10yds). But I am a rifle junky and love tinkerin with guns and that's as much reason I gun hunt as anyother. I don't feel the need to call myself more of a "sportsman" by killing a buck in the woods at 75 yds as compared too the fellow who whacks one from the otherside of the field. But I guess there are som on here who have that urge!


RA

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TC. Well said. I think we should all use what we like best and what works for us. The folks who buy the big magnums help out the gun companies and thats a good thing.

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RedAllison,
I cannot argue with your assertion that that being ridiculed is not fair. Certainly you don't deserve that - NO one does. If I added to your frustration, then you have my apologies. I mostly wondered whether the level of "persecution" is actually as great as you seemed to be saying. However, if you feel it to that degree, that is your right. As I said, neither you (nor anyone else) deserves that.

I, for one, have no comment or criticism to offer as regards your hunting techniques. Those are a matter of your choice, not mine. If they are effective, then good for you. I certainly agree, as a former Elk and Mule Deer hunter, that magnum rifles do offer an advantage at longer ranges. That is not open for dispute. That is why I used a 7mm magnum for such hunting. I don't enjoy hard-kicking rifles myself. I also prefer relatively mild loads now, as it is easier on the rifle, the brass...and my shoulder. My hunting ranges now rarely exceed 100 yards....and if the shot is beyond 125 yards, I forego it. For my uses now, a magnum does not make sense. However, that is entirely a matter of personal choice. If magnums are what you prefer...and they work well for you (in your specific circumstances), then more power to you. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with that.

I suppose that much of this kind of debate boils down to personal choices - which many perhaps try a bit too hard to foist on others, as the "only" logical solution. The debate about recommendations to new or perspective hunters has raged on forever....and probably always will. Everyone has his prefered cartridge(s)/ equipment. The problem comes in, I think, when any of us try to assert that our particular choice - is the BEST choice. I think that we all would do well to realize that there are many possible choices in this matter.....and no one is automatically "wrong" because of their personal preference. The concept that a magnum is perhaps not best for beginning shooters has a lot of weight....I happen to agree with that. But, yet again, it's a matter of personal taste. I for one, make a point of recommending magnums only to those whose needs involve longer-ranges - IF asked. That does NOT go to suggest, however, that magnums are a bad choice. They definitely have their uses... as I know from direct experience.

So, to sum up..... perhaps some of us should take more care in not being too assertive as to the ultimate wisdom of our particular preferences in equipment. There are a lot of choices available. If we stick to the facts and avoid hyperbole....and maintain a willingness to admit that our particular solution is NOT the ONLY solution...... then there might be a bit less acrimony. That, I suspect, would be pleasing to all. I intend to do my part.

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I'm gonna side with Red on this one. I think I'm a fair shooter, better than some, not as good as others. I shoot and hunt because I love the sport. I have more firearms than the average and they run the scale from .22 to 300RUM and 444 in rifles and I love them all. Each has a purpose for me. I don't carry my 30.06 or .308 for groundhogs, why would I when I can carry the .223 or 22-250. I don't carry my .243 for elk either, I have something that should do a 'better' job if I do my part. Point is, I buy and shoot my firearms because I enjoy them. Something new, is like Christmas in July. It's like owning a Corvette. You can't drive 200 mph anywhere around here. Is it necessary? Of course not. Does it make you a better driver? Doubt it. Pain in the butt to bring home groceries. But most all American boys grew up wanting one, and if you own one, I don't hold it against you, it's just fun to have. The cannons are the same way. If you want to shoot a 505 Gibbs for deer, more power to you. I don't think I want to....yet.

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That was hilarious.

To theguy who said that cow taste better than deer, you are totally nuts. I will leave it there.

Tom

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I own a 7x57 Mauser, 30-06 and 300 WSM and I use all of them for deer hunting and I would use any of them for any North American game. I have no problem with someone who wants to use a magnum, however I do think most people are not capable of shooting them accurately. Most magnums have to much recoil for most people. I know someone (about 16 years old) who asked his parents for a 7mm STW for christmas and durring the youth season was to affraid to shoot it so his older brother shot the deer with it. The next year he was using a 300 ultra mag. Young shooters should start out shooting .22 LRs and smaller caliber rifles and work their way up. The Ruger #1 in 7x57 was my first rifle when I was 13 and I was not affraid of it. My WSM kicks quite a bit but I can still shoot 1/2" groups with it. I will shoot any rifle you hand to me, but I can tell you that if I was shooting a 378 weatherby mag much I would develope a flinch. You should not be using a gun you are scared of so I would have to say you are better off recomending a30-06 over a 300 ultra mag if it is capable of doing the job, which it is 95% of the time.

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Most if not more than 80% of shots are under 100 yards, why does one need to shoot .5" groups from his 338win mag or 243 to kill????

Why does one have to be able to get subMOA groups at 500 yards to have a blessing from this forum to use a higher powered gun? And most of all, why do you care what others are using? Do it help your skills? Put more meat in your freezer? Or money in your pocket?

Just curious?

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That about sums it up for me too. Thanks bc for saving me some keystrokes.

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Well said Red well said.
I have felt the wrath of the non-magnum shooters,I to was a once true blue 30-06 user andI felt it was the only gun I ever needed.But one day that all changed for me and it was not all that long ago maybe 10 years ago.That is when I saw my trusted 30-06 fail,oh it killed the elk,but it took 4 shots(3 in the heart-lungs and 1 in the neck to finish it),all of them were well placed shots,when gutting the cow she had 3 sluggs up against the ribbs on the far side,yes the 30-06 worked but the shot was only 40 yds.Now if a 30-06 can't punch trough at 40 yds what would it do at 200 or 300.To me it only happened once but that was enough,the gun performed but failed in my eyes.For me it all about entrance and exit,none of this"Well it displaced all its energy in the elk" crap,cause if that was true it would have stopped running and died.
I primarly hunt elk andI hunt them in tough areas and when I shoot I want them down and down now,I want big bullets at high velocity.
I don't realy need the range but it is nice to hace I want KE,and FT/Lbs.
If someone don't wanna shoot no magnums then don',t but if you ask what to use for elk or a North American rifle I'm gonna tell you and to me a MAGNUM fits the bill.

It is what I use and you can't turn me back,I have tasted the dark side young Jedi's
BBJ

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First off I don't see anywhere close to the level of persecution that Red is talking about at this site. I don't care what you hunt with as long as you follow basic rules of safety and are proficient enough to hit where you aim with it. I have not seenmagnums consistently berated for their use on elk, moose or large bears. I would also never chastise anyone who carried a 300 or 338 mag for deer because his hunting grounds were also grizzly country. What I do see is simply a growing consensus that large magnums are not needed for "Deer Hunting." Apparently that notion offends some people but so be it.

Magnumitis is at an all time high here in Alabama. I am about to speak in general terms about what I see locally here in Alabama and the type guys I know who carry these large calibers for deer. There are always exceptions to everything. If these comments don't describe you or your hunting situationthen that's great. You have no reason to be pissed at me.

The average distance that deer are killed at here in Alabama (a heavily wooded state) is less than 100 yards. There are some large clear cuts and bean fields here and there but they are the exception not the rule. So most of the guys I know that are smacking deer with these hand held howitzers are shooting them at a average distance of about 60 to 70 yards out of a shooting house on the edge of small green fields. Because of the short range the impact velocity of these whiz bang zoom magnums is still greater than 3000 fps. This makes bullet failure, fragmentation and over expansiona very real problem. Alsobecause of the high speed close range impact and the small size of our southern deer the meat damage is horrific. Despite the excessive meat damage most of these guys report a curious thing to me. The deer they shoot still run about as far as they do when I shoot one with a 7mm-08 or 25-06. The bang flop kills they thought they were going to get with their new rocket launcher just don't consistently happen. A fact that sadly prompts some of them to buy even larger magnums in a vain attempt to get that consistent bang flop kill.

Virtually every one of the12 or so magnum guys I know and speak to on a regular basis can quote you the ballisticcharts of their particular mag caliber from memory. Bullet drop at 300 yards, retained foot pounds of energy at 400 yards, etc, etc. Yet not a single one of them has, to the best of my knowledge, ever killed anything farther away than 150 yards. In fact I have had the opportunity from time to time to shootwith many of them at the large gravel pit on mygrandfathers land. You canshoot out to 350 yards in it andshooting there with themwould have been funny if it also wasn'tso sad. Most of themcould barely keepthree shots in aspace the size of asheet of loose leaf notebook paper at 100 yards. Most couldn't put one in three shots in a space the size of a deers vitals at 200 yards. And 300 yards? Forget it,the targetmight as well have been a mile away for all the chance they had of hitting it. Why? All you had to do was stand behind them as they shot to see. All of them had a flinch and some were literally jerking their head out from behind the scope as they pulled the trigger. All of them would have been far better off with aless powerfulcartridge that they could have shot more accurately. In fact most when handed my 7mm-08could ,after a few warm up shots to realize that it was no threat to gouge their eye out,shoot it much better than their own rifle. You would think that a light bulb would have gone off in their heads after an experience like that but logic can find no toe hold in a mind afflicted with magnumitis. Nope, they can't be seen in camp with a little girlie cartridge like a 7mm-08. They got to have a manly mans gun like a 300 ultra mag even if it means they can't keep three shots on a barn door with it.

(MNTBHWT) = many need to be honest with themselves

1. If you have any recoil induced flinch you probably shouldn't be using a magnum caliber. (MNTBHWT)

2. If you find yourselfpracticing less or not at all because an evening at the range with Big Bertha has become a decidely unpleasent experience then you probably shouldn't be using a magnum caliber.

3. If the land that you hunt doesn't realistically present the opportunity for 400 yards shots then you probably shouldn't be using a magnum caliber.

4. If you aren't capable of consistently making a 400 yard shot with a large magnum caliberthen you probably shouldn't be using a magnum caliber. (MNTBHWT)

5. If the game you are hunting weighs less than 250 lbs and you don't live in Grizzley or Brown bear country then you probably shouldn't be using a magnum caliber.

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Todd you paint ALOT of people with a very broad brush. So it's your opinion that unless I live in grizz country, my Warbird is un-necessary. Well I happen to think that your comments about there being very few places in AL to shoot deer a long way off is blatantly wrong. The art of "shooting house" hunting originated in the southern powerlines and right of ways of AL. ALOT of guys down there use high steppers for shooting deer well past the quartermile mark, just as they do allover the south and many places west of the MS. Just because you choose to stick deep inside the brush doesn't mean that it isn't necessary for others to have a need to shoot farther. My primary rifle stand in west TN is in the middle of a large field where I have a commanding view of ALOT of real estate and off my right shoulder the farthest point is 618 yds, over my left shoulder the tree line is 613 yds. I used to hunt the same area with my 06 and 7mags and would basically just watch and wish when they walked by on either end if over 400yds. So for me the big gun is a tool that fixes a problem. (BTW, no I have not had the first problem with bloodshot meat with this gun, bone fragmentation is more a result than bruised meat!)

As for not seeing the evidence of which I speak, just take a look at many of the posts in the gun sections asked about long range calibers or upgrading or going out west for long range hunts etc... They might not start off that way, but once someone like myself recommends a longranger, the wrath of God befalls the post and the name callin and "Well in my opinions..." start flyin with wreckless abandone. As for Todds Assertion about driving bullets past their failure velocity, that's evidence of his oldschool mindset. I am not suggesting men try driving CoreLokts too 4kps, I am talking about using modern technology to reliably and CLEANLY take animals at basically any range necessary. I realize alot of guys are anti-technology, that's fine but don't redicule me (and others like me) for choosing to do so. A smidge of ability, a laser rangefinder, a quality scope and rifle and some time spent practicing and scouting will make MANY people much more capable than some would like to admit or see unfold.

Much the same wrath befell compound shooters in the late 70s and early 80s. Now they are the rule vs the exception. I suppose it just takes time!
RA

RE: I'm beginning to think this site...
 

Exactly todd, cause they should be honest with themselfs and understand your overgunned when you enter the woods with a 30-30. Everything after that is just fun. How much accuracy do you need to kill deer at 30, 50, or 80 yards.

RE: I'm beginning to think this site...
 

Here is an interesting post from a guy by the handle of Muledeer over at the 24 hour Campfire forums. Many who visit that site will know him and his level of experience and expertise when it comes to hunting and shooting. It's a comparison of the 308 and the 300 win mag.


Was just down at the first annual Charlie Sisk Rifle Shoot in Texas, and was in charge of an experiment comparing the .308 Win. to the .300 Win. Magnum at 400 yards. Charlie provided two rifles identical in every way--Model 70 action, barrel, McMillan stock, scope (a 4-12x Kahles)--except chambering. One was a .308 and the other a .300. Ammo was Hornady factory with 165 Interlocks.
The experiment was simple: I zeroed each rifle 2" high at 100 yards, then shot them at 400 measured yards to how much each bullet was affected by drop, wind, etc. The wind was gusting up to 15 mph and I did not attempt to compensate at 400 yards, firing a 3-shot group with each rifle over a forend rest (not a full benchrest setup with rear bag) simulating field conditions. I called one shot in each group out about 2", otherwise all looked good.
We could not tell which shots had been called out. Groups were almost identical at 8-9 inches, strung mostly horizontally due to the wind. The .308's bullets dropped about 7" more, and drifted maybe 2 more inches in the wind. But every shot from both rifles would have landed in the lung area of a big mule deer at 400 yards, if the shooter had held the correct amount high--no matter which rifle was fired.
The entire group from both rifles measured a little over one foot, with most in under 8" inches. In fact, if we hadn't known which rifle fired which bullet, it looked very much like one group.
Admittedly, "tuned" handloads, a better rest, and a very calm day would have resulted in smaller groups. But smaller groups would have resulted in even less difference in trajectory from the highest and lowest shots. Which group came from which rifle would have been more obvious--but any of the shots would still have killed a mule deer with the same hold.

I'll just make one more note. I have used various .30 caliber cartridges over the years, from the .30-30 and .300 Savage up to the .300 RUM. In general even the .308 and certainly the .30-06 have done fine on big game out to 450 yards, which is as far as I have personally ever shot at anything larger than a coyote.
There may be some advantage in the bigger .30's in penetration with heavier bullets. But every animal I've ever shot with cartridges such as the .308 or .30-06 has gotten a hole right through all the vital parts. The bullet was either found under the hide on the far side, or went all the way through. On the longer shots with these "smaller" cartridges the bullet has always been a 165 or 180. Since all the animals were hit right, none went over 30-40 yards after the hit. Some went straight down.
Therefore, it has been hard for me to grasp how using a .300 magnum on the same shots would have resulted in deader animals.
Not that I am giving up my .300 magnums. I own three at the moment, an H&H, Winchester and WSM--and I plan to hunt elk in Colorado this fall with a .300 Weatherby, a cartridge I already have some acquaintance with.
I just fail to see the vast gap in performance that some claim between the "ordinary" .30's and the the bigger ones. In reality it appears to be a "cline," a graded shift rather than a firm division in performance. But then again I quit believing in foot-pounds as a real indicator of "killing power" many years ago, after having shot quite a few animals and mostly discovering that if their pumphouse got punctured, it didn't matter much whether the puncturing was done with a .270 or a .338.
I also quit believing that we somehow "need" a minimum of 200 grains of bullet to kill anything bigger than a caribou. This is because too many animals died from the correct application of lighter bullets. The big factors appeared to be correct bullet placement and penetration, not exactly how much the bullet weighed, or its diameter, or exactly what percentage of weight it retained.
But, as always, that's just one person's opinion around the Campfire

RE: I'm beginning to think this site...
 

Yea, but anybody that has ever followed his writing for a long time knows he is very anti magnum. Well not anti magnum but anti anything new. Its his way, and his little niche.

Its more important to John, that we use traditional cartidges than anything with the same ballistics just for the name.

RE: I'm beginning to think this site...
 

Todd, I don't recommend large mags for deer because of a desire to increase the bullets energy. It's simply all about velocity. And to get it there quicker and flatter it has to be started out faster which DOES result in more recoil, noise and expense. I agree too that for the most par there isn't enough difference (trajectory wise) between a 30/06 shooting 150grns vs a 300WinMag shooting 180grns to merit switching one for the other with concerns too deer (yeah I would MUCH rather have the later with something larger than a caribou is the target). I am talking about taking the same bullet from that 06 and increasing its velocity by 500-nearly 1k more fps and THEN you see quite a difference in trajectory. In my mind (and my own personal experience) it is MUCH easier to hit (with great accuracy I might add) at 400yds when the bullet is only going to drop about 3" vs a foot and a half in the 06. I know it because I do it with regularity and I have done it with both.

As for the comparison you gave, I would like to see the test had he used a true supermag vs that 308. A faster bullet does two things, not only does it drop less but it also drifts less in the wind because it is in flight for a shorter time so the wind has less time to grab that bullet.

Now what does all this have to do with my original post? :D
RA

RE: I'm beginning to think this site...
 

Did you skip over the part where I said, "There are always exceptions to everything. If these comments don't describe you or your hunting situationthen that's great. You have no reason to be pissed at me." If you hunt where you can see 600 yards in every direction and can pick lint off a gnats ass at those distances withyour warbird thenthat's great. But for the vast, vastmajority ofpeople a 270,308 or30-06 will kill well beyond the range that they have any business attempting a shot anyway.

Out west it may be a different story but if you are having to consistently take shots over 300 yards in Alabama then you need to move your stand to a better location cause you are definately set up in the wrong spot.

No that's evidence of the fact that the locals are shooting cor-lokts, power points Hornady SST's, and ballistic tips into deer at 3000 plus fps and ending up withbullets that occasionally blow up on shoulders and deer that look like they were hit by a car when you pull the hide off of them.

RE: I'm beginning to think this site...
 

Seems the orignal post was more to do with problems
with opinions than magnums.
Here are my (dis)qualifications:
number of rifles- 2 (.22 lr & 30-30win)
(more shotguns, but thats a different topic I suppose).
Having never been on an elk, bear, moose, caribou,
buffalo or bison hunt I figurethis is about all I needFOR NOW.

I've been reading pretty much every thread bar bow/arrow
for several months now and it seems to me the extreme opinions
go both ways. Large caliber folks calling medium/small caliber
folks "pansies, girlie men, weak" ect. and medium/small caliber
folks refering to large caliber folks as having "magnumitis", or
accusing them of trying to compensate for bad shooting or
uh, lets just say "smallness in other areas". So I guess it seems
to me a little thin skinned to be calling foul or pouting because
someone else may be as opinionated as yourself. If you get
your feelings hurt by someones disagreement with what you
think, the World Wide Web is not the place to display it. I've
gotten alot of entertainment from clashing of ideas and arguments
and so would hate to see them stop for the pitiful excuse of
everyone "trying to get along".
Now, come out from your corners andstart swinging.:)

PKnTX

RE: I'm beginning to think this site...
 

STAT JUNK

STAT are you crazy???? Lets see, just checking the phone book for a place that advertises great deer steaks. Hmmm....can't find a one. I will put up a porterhouse on the grill against deer anyway you prepare it.