RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

The fact that people are still buying enough hunting bullets from these companies to keep them in business, proves that most people agree that bullet design is important for hunting game.

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

OK, I play your silly little game one more time!. If I used a ballistic tip on one deer and shot him in the lungs, he might fall right there, he might run 100yds, if I were to use a FMJ "which I wouldnt", I would shoot it in the head and drop it where it stands!. That is proper shot placement!!!. There is no comparrison of a FMJ and an expanding bullet, you still need to use the right tool, so to say!, now stop with the FMJ, Im not talking about them!.

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

I am not playing a game,I am asking a simple question which you seem incapable of answering.

The bullets below are specifically made for hunting big game,yet I would not expect a quick kill on a big game animal if I used one of these bullets to make a lung shot,the bullet placement used by most big game hunters by the way.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/rifle/banded-solids/

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

I personally believe it has to do with bullet construction and shot placement. Both a high velocity bullet and a slow heavy bullet will kill if the proper bullet is used and you put in the right spot. Heavy slow expanding bullets have more momentum and tend to penetrate better. High velocity faster expanding bullets tend to expand more violently and penetrate less. Both can be quite devastating though.

Deer in most cases die from the wound channel created by the bullet. And in most cases a higher velocity bullet of the controlled expansion type is going to create a better wound channel while still providing good penetration. This is evident in the fact that high powered rifles have a better chance of dropping a deer on the spot than a shotgun or inline muzzle loader does. Higher velocity with a more rapid expanding bullet transfers more energy and creates a larger wound channel. Still there is no guarantee though. I have seen several studies that confirm there is no guarantee of killing a deer on the spot with any weapon when shot in the vitals.

Energy figures really mean little in most cases, especially once you reach a certain threshold. Any projectile put through the vitals of a deer is going to be lethal, it's that simple. The question is how long does it take the deer to figure it out;). Deer die from the same thing no matter what you shoot them with or where you shoot them (excluding head shots). They die from lack of oxygen to the brain, and this takes some time. Either from bleeding out from a wound or from the heart stopping. Yes deer can be dropped on the spot, that doesn't really mean they are dead though, just immobilized. Shooting one in the shoulder breaking both shoulders and shocking the spine will put one down for sure. But don't confuse the difference between stunned, not being able to move and being dead.

If energy and shot placement really mattered then I wouldn't have a deer walk on me yet. Every deer I have shot has been with a large caliber bullet delivering at least 2,000 ft/lbs of energy inside of 100 yards. A few with full bore 12 gauge slugs weighing 600 grns and carrying near 3,000 ft/lbs of energy at the close distances they were shot (20-30 yards). All were hit in the vitals destroying the lungs and heart. I have not had a deer drop on the spot yet. They all run to some degree when shot then fall over dead when the brain can't function anymore. A shoulder shot would probably anchor them, but they really wouldn't die any faster. Yet I have seen someone with a .243 using a 100 grn or a 30-06 using a 150 grn bullet take the same shot and drop the deer right were it stood, at twice the distance.

The difference I see with a muzzle loader using a lighter modern controlled expansion bullet at a higher velocity compared to an average shotgun slug with a heavier weight and slower speed shows me the lighter better designed bullet works better. There is always more damage to the internals with the lighter faster expanding bullet. Sometimes the heavier slug just punches a hole through the animal doing very little damage to the surrounding tissue. And I don't hunt deer with a high powered rifle, but I know many that do and have seen the deer they have shot. It is evident that that these rifles shooting bullets half the weight and twice as fast as my muzzle loader does actually creates more tissue damage and a larger wound cavity. IF used with a proper bullet.

I have shot lots of small game with various weapons though, from bows, traditional muzzle loaders, modern muzzle loaders, shotguns, pistols and various centerfire rifles. There is no doubt in my mind the high velocity rapid expanding bullet does waaaay more damage and transfers more energy. I have shot woodchucks and the likes with round ball muzzle loaders and it will punch a hole through them and knock them down, same thing with slugs. My inline will do a bit more damage and actually throw them a little ways on occasion. Sometimes they manage to survive this and crawl back in a hole or something. I have also shot them with 7.62x39 and .223 FMJ's. Normally just zips right through them, doesn't even knock them down. Lots of speed and energy, just no real good means of transferring it. The bullets over penetrate and are not real effective for quick kills. Now just about any centerfire with a decent expanding bullet will do some serious damage. And if you use rapid expanding bullets made for the task it is outright devastating.

A large slug with 2,000 ft/lbs of energy will kill a woodchuck, but a .223 with a 40 grn bullet and 700 ft/lbs of energy at 200 yards will blow one apart! And a 60 grn FMJ out of the same gun really isn't that impressive.

So in the end it boils down to using the right bullet for job and being able to put it in the right spot irregardless of the game.

My opinions anyway.
Paul

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

By the way there is no such thing as "hydrostatic shock". Hydrodynamic maybe, but not hydrostatic.

Paul

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

The Barnes bullets are not a true FMJ, they are a expanding designed bullet, their make-up delivers excellent down range accuracy and expand very well, from what I have witnessed, as good as a ballistic tip. I myself am going to start experimenting with them this year!, and by the way, to answer your question, if I was useing a BarnesTripple Shock and put it in the lungs, they would probably both expire at the same time!!!.
Paul, there is such a thing as hydrostatic shock, definition;A highly destructive shock wave created by a bullet passing through animal tissue, which is high inwater content, which that is a P.C. definition, it also happens to human tissue also!.

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

Apparently you don't read too well.:DTry looking at the link again,and read up on the bullets featured on this page.They aren't the tsx.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/rifle/banded-solids/

The bullets that the link leads to are Barnes bullets,however they are solids,that are designed not to expand at all.Unlike most FMJ bullets,however,they are designed specifically for big game hunting.

From the link provided.

So do you believe that these hunting bullets would kill a deer as quickly as a ballistic tip if lung shots were used?

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

Well no I didnt click the linc, I assumed you were talking about the Tripple Shock," we all know what an assumption leads to", anyway, I wouldnt say anything about the Solid Banded bullets until Ive seen them in action, remember, assumption is the mother of all evils!. Still the fact of the matter is, you can have the fastest, hardest hitting bullet made, if you dont hit vitals, you dont have a swift clean kill!. I never said that bullet performance has nothing to do with it!, I said shot placement has more to do with it!.

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

You need to go back and reread your posts to refresh your memory.:D

What you actually posted was:

"More to do with it" is not the same as "is the ONLY thing that determines"

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

My story has not changed at all. You mistook what I said. The only ignorance here is your lack of ability to read for comprehension. If you care to continue this.... feel free to PM me. Otherwise, I'd appreciate you not try and defamate my character or good name. You can feel free to publicly appologise at any time.

I would also like to point out, since you brought it up, that the PREFERED bullet for hunting elephant, is in fact the non-expanding solid. If you care to make yourself look like anymore of an uneducated fool. Keep on posting nonsense like this.

You make comments as though you are the only hunter in the world, and God forbid someone have an experience that differs from your point of view. I see you joined the forums about a month ago, yet have over 300 posts already. You must do plenty of internet hunting... while all the rest of us are out in the field in January acctually hunting, you sit at home and talk about it.

At no point at all did I claim a FMJ bullet to be an ideal deer hunting bullet. But you flat said that it couldn't be done. That is absolute load of horse chit sir. You have changed your stance and your story, made rehortical comments, only to be called on them, and then gotten defense for being wrong in the first place!

You are here to start fights, and your last paragraph shows it. How in the hell can you insult someones hunting ability, when you have no way of knowing what it is! Keep this sort of crap up, and see how long you get to stick around here.