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RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
ORIGINAL: Pavomesa Fellows, I've got a real simple way to conclude this discussion. All you "enlightened hunters" who believe there is no such thing as bullet performance and an FMJ is as good as anything (And cheaper too!:)) stop buying all these expensive bullets and hunt exclusively with FMJs! Maybe that will make the price drop on the other stuff for the rest of us.;) And all you fellows who don't believe there is such a thing as hydrostatic shock, the next time you cut open a deer, elk or whatever, I want you to take a good look around inside the chest cavity and ask yourself what caused that huge bloodshot ring extending 8-10 inches out from the exit wound?[:-] You bullet was perhaps only .308" in diameter. Perhaps it expanded to 1/2" in diameter. So tell me what the devil the rest of the wound is caused by? Take your time. Don't rush your answers. But I submit that anyone with one good eye should be able to observe that SOMETHING ELSE is going on here. Hydrostatic shock IS a reality, my friends. The term wasn't dreamed up by some old coot like me. It was the ballisticians themselves who made up the phrase. Shooting something with an FMJ isn't much different from stabbing something with an ice pick. Sure it will kill it. But when? Unless a hunter is so highly skilled as my friend SwampCollie, who can slay vast herds of deer each year with "head shots"...then you're probably going to have problems hunting with FMJ. (Not the least of which may be getting heavily fined by the game department for using them.) But Pavo!!!!!!!!!! What about the AR-15 and such? They are pretty good killers! What about them with their FMJ's? Answer: Their light little pointy bullets become totally unstable when they hit something. Thanks to the thick jacket covering 95% of the bullet, they can't explode........so they start tumbling. It is the tumbling that creates the wound and does the extra damage. In fact, this tumbling is a fair immitation of an expanding bullet. The only thing that makes them less effective is a tumbling bullet tends to wander around rather than punching through on the path the shooter intended. The problem is you get screwy results. And this brings us back to all the multi-million dollar companies like Hornady, Barnes, Nosler, Sierra, Speer, etc..........who still foolishly disagree with SwampCollie and believe that there IS such a thing as bullet performance and in fact they base their entire businesses trying to achieve and enhance it. And this is about all I've got to say on the subject. I'll let SwampCollie have the last word with the jury and try to convince some of you stubborn devils that FMJ's of .17 caliber on up are as good as anything.:D :eek: Look bro, I'm terribly sorry you are having trouble killing rabbits with a .243... really I feel for you. But if you want to personally attack me in printed word, you are going to have to learn to read correctly first. Because all of this FMJ talk... was started by YOU just trying to start a fight. This very thread... post #27... first mention of an FMJ... by you! If you call it "spin" by shooting deer in the brain.. then fine.. call it spin. It is quite obvious that lack the courtesy or intellect to have a peaceful debate. You have to start throwing insults... thats fine.. play that way if you will. Bullet performance has a lot of definitions... what is yours anyway? You have not posted up any of your own experiences, or thoughts at all? Other than your lack of ability to dispatch rabbits with a high powered centerfire rifle for no reason other than sheer wanton-waste, there has been nothing positive contributed by you here.... care to share? |
RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
My story has not changed at all. You mistook what I said. One of your earlier posts contained: I've never had deer do anything but flop when I hit them in the right spot. Doesn't matter whether it was with a .17, 204, 7-08 or what. Bang, flop. I think bullet performance has almost little or nothing to do with it. Bullet performance does matter if you are shooting deer behind the shoulder |
RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
Has anyone ever used a solid on a game animal, I have. I used the owner-ranchers gun one time, it was a 303 british with a full metal jacket on a hog. I hit him right behind the shoulder and he went maybe 30 yds and expired.
I know they will work, not the best but they will definatley kill. |
RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
ORIGINAL: Pavomesa Fellows, I've got a real simple way to conclude this discussion. All you "enlightened hunters" who believe there is no such thing as bullet performance and an FMJ is as good as anything (And cheaper too!:)) stop buying all these expensive bullets and hunt exclusively with FMJs! Maybe that will make the price drop on the other stuff for the rest of us.;) And all you fellows who don't believe there is such a thing as hydrostatic shock, the next time you cut open a deer, elk or whatever, I want you to take a good look around inside the chest cavity and ask yourself what caused that huge bloodshot ring extending 8-10 inches out from the exit wound?[:-] You bullet was perhaps only .308" in diameter. Perhaps it expanded to 1/2" in diameter. So tell me what the devil the rest of the wound is caused by? Take your time. Don't rush your answers. But I submit that anyone with one good eye should be able to observe that SOMETHING ELSE is going on here. Hydrostatic shock IS a reality, my friends. The term wasn't dreamed up by some old coot like me. It was the ballisticians themselves who made up the phrase. Shooting something with an FMJ isn't much different from stabbing something with an ice pick. Sure it will kill it. But when? Unless a hunter is so highly skilled as my friend SwampCollie, who can slay vast herds of deer each year with "head shots"...then you're probably going to have problems hunting with FMJ. (Not the least of which may be getting heavily fined by the game department for using them.) But Pavo!!!!!!!!!! What about the AR-15 and such? They are pretty good killers! What about them with their FMJ's? Answer: Their light little pointy bullets become totally unstable when they hit something. Thanks to the thick jacket covering 95% of the bullet, they can't explode........so they start tumbling. It is the tumbling that creates the wound and does the extra damage. In fact, this tumbling is a fair immitation of an expanding bullet. The only thing that makes them less effective is a tumbling bullet tends to wander around rather than punching through on the path the shooter intended.The problemis you get screwy results. And this brings us back to all the multi-million dollar companies like Hornady, Barnes, Nosler, Sierra, Speer, etc..........who still foolishly disagree with SwampCollie and believethat there IS such a thing as bullet performance and in fact they base their entire businesses trying to achieve and enhance it. And this is about all I've got to say on the subject. I'll let SwampCollie have the last word with the jury and try to convince some of you stubborn devils that FMJ's of .17 caliber on upare as good as anything.:D:eek: I remember back when I was just a little tyke I shot a deer at 285 yards with a 22 cb cap. I calculated the yardage by estimation and the 45 mph cross wind with a little "Kentucky windage" Anyway, I dropped the 49 point buck with one shot. I hit him in the testicles, and he died of a broken heart. :eek::eek: I could have just as easily shot him in the ear at that short distance, but I was afraid that the earwax would make the projectile veer off course. Ok, it was a bull story, but so are a lot of the others posted here. |
RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
ORIGINAL: stubblejumper My story has not changed at all. You mistook what I said. One of your earlier posts contained: I've never had deer do anything but flop when I hit them in the right spot. Doesn't matter whether it was with a .17, 204, 7-08 or what. Bang, flop. I think bullet performance has almost little or nothing to do with it. Bullet performance does matter if you are shooting deer behind the shoulder Fair enough then, I see where you are coming from stubble; let me clarify/rephrase what I mean/meant by that. When I shoot a deer, I shoot it at the base of the skull, through the skull itself, or through the scapula, which severes the spinal cord and usually breaks both shoulders. When I hit a deer in those spots, the results are the same everytime. It doesn't matter what bullet I shoot a deer with. As long as the bullet gets to the brain, or through the spine and shoulders, the deer is anchored where I shot it. Bullet performance to means that the bullet got to the target. Its a black and white, yes or no thing. Either the bullet was deflected, or I missed, or whatever... or it got to the target. But bullet performance, as it is defined so often as being rapidly expanding or deep penetrating etc, has no effect in my case. Hopefully that will clairfy exactly what I meant by that post. For guys shooting deer behind the shoulder, I suspect you'd be more concerned with a rapidly expanding bullet. However, I am not. My bullet of choice though as of late has been Barnes Triple Shocks. But I do also like plain old Sierra Game Kings, just because they tend to be some of the most accurate in my handloads. And bullet placement is critical. |
RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
Its a black and white, yes or no thing. Either the bullet was deflected, or I missed, or whatever... or it got to the target. |
RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
Either the bullet was deflected, or I missed, or whatever... or it got to the target. Things may look 'black or white' to you, but the 'or whatever' is probably a deer that you shot poorly.[:@] |
RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
When I shoot a deer, I shoot it at the base of the skull, through the skull itself, or through the scapula, which severes the spinal cord and usually breaks both shoulders. When I hit a deer in those spots, the results are the same everytime. It doesn't matter what bullet I shoot a deer with. As long as the bullet gets to the brain, or through the spine and shoulders, the deer is anchored where I shot it. Bullet performance to means that the bullet got to the target. Its a black and white, yes or no thing. Either the bullet was deflected, or I missed, or whatever... or it got to the target. But bullet performance, as it is defined so often as being rapidly expanding or deep penetrating etc, has no effect in my case. Hopefully that will clairfy exactly what I meant by that post. For guys shooting deer behind the shoulder, I suspect you'd be more concerned with a rapidly expanding bullet. However, I am not. My bullet of choice though as of late has been Barnes Triple Shocks. But I do also like plain old Sierra Game Kings, just because they tend to be some of the most accurate in my handloads You say your posts haven't changed at all. But your comments are all over the board. Having touble keeping your BS straight????;) You tell us you shoot over 40 deer each year and you're such a wonderfully good shot and the deer are so helpful where you live that you can shoot them all through the head...or neatly snip the spine with one of your fantastic "scapula shots.":D:D:D I try to imagine this and keep coming up with the idea that you either shoot all your deer while they are neatly penned up, or maybe when you aren't out slaughtering the deer population you're real job is a brain surgeon. Or of course there is still the possibility that you are simply a liar and do all of your hunting while roaming across your keyboard. I still say you don't know the butt plate from the muzzle. Why don't I contribute some of my stories? Hahahaha. Buddy, I can't top the BS you print here!:D:D All my experiences have been pretty tame compared to the crap you expect people to believe. I hunt in the real world where deer andother crittersrun and jump at the slightest excuse and where bullets don't always actas advertised. Most of the deer I've shot weren't so cooperative as yours. They didn't stand still and give me the opportunity to neatly drill them 1/2 an inch below the left ear like you claim yours do.:D:D Or are you such a fantastic shot that you can hit this mark while they run and jump? Boy, that would be something to see.:) I'd sure like to go hunting with you and observe how you do all your fantastic shooting. You're obviously in a class far above us mortals here. I don't see anyone else who can touch you.[&o] While we are NOT changing our stories......obviously your backing off your original absurd remarks that you use FMJs and bullet types don't matter and there is no such thing as bullet performance. Now you tell us that you use Barnes Tripple Shock or Sierra Game Kings? Hmmmmmmmmm. Which is it Swamper? If bullet type doesn't matter, what on earth are you doing paying out the nose for Barnes TS? I'm thinking you actually shoot Barnes BS bullets...if you get my drift.:D:D I surely didn't come here or to any forum looking for a fight. If I had, I would have picked someone who actually knew what he was talking about and didn't try to bury me with BS. I just get weary of BS artists. I can't "defame your good name" because you haven't got one. You're an internet troll trying desperately to puff up your self esteem by telling ridiculous tales that everyone who actually has hunted knows are high grade BS. Now, I'm gonna sit back and wait for your next fantastic story!:) |
RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
ORIGINAL: stubblejumper Its a black and white, yes or no thing. Either the bullet was deflected, or I missed, or whatever... or it got to the target. |
RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
So what is your story, I made a statement that shot placement is the only thing that will determine how fast an animal will expire. You start going on about misspelled words, .284 bullets out of a 7mm mag and a 7-08, and to clue him in on the fact that all bullets create hydrostatic shock!. You havent helped in the matter any, you could have said " shot placement has a great deal to do with killing an animal quicker" so yes shot placement is one of the biggest keys for a quicker kill, evedently, you agrea with this statement or you wouldnt have written what you did about you and your buddies shooting for the lungs!, that is shot placement!. We all know that bullet performance is a must We all know that bullet performance is a must, it does no good if it doesnt get there, I beleive the current ammo makers have this under control dont you!, You could have avoided many posts if you had simply admitted that you made an incorrect statement when you posted that shot placement is the only thing that will determine how fast an animal will expire.But you chose not to,the result being several extra posts by each of us. |
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