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RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
ORIGINAL: SwampCollie ORIGINAL: Pavomesa Cute how you've changed your story, Swamp. Now all of a sudden bullet performance DOES matter and you want to try to spin your ignorant remarks off into some BS about brain shots. Well...........duh..................you don't even need a bullet to kill an animal hitting it in the brain. A hammer will work just fine. Or even a rock.:) Sure you can kill a deer with an FMJ. An idiot knows that. I wonder why most states outlaw the use of FMJ's for hunting deer?:D Could it be they know something you haven't figured out yet?[8D] Shucks, you can kill an elephant with a brainshot and an FMJ...or if you've got a week and nothing better to do, you can kill an elephant with an FMJ and shoot him somewhere else.:eek: What does this have to do with hunting and bullet performance? You can CLAIM to have killed half the animals in this hemisphere. Talk's cheap. But I tell you again, your ignorance of bullet performance and its role in hunting shows you don't know the butt plate from the muzzle. Anyone who hasn't seen the difference in what bullets can and can't do hasn't hunted much. Maybe someday you'll have a clue and I won't have to waste my time trying to educate you.:( I would also like to point out, since you brought it up, that the PREFERED bullet for hunting elephant, is in fact the non-expanding solid. If you care to make yourself look like anymore of an uneducated fool. Keep on posting nonsense like this. You make comments as though you are the only hunter in the world, and God forbid someone have an experience that differs from your point of view. I see you joined the forums about a month ago, yet have over 300 posts already. You must do plenty of internet hunting... while all the rest of us are out in the field in January acctually hunting, you sit at home and talk about it. At no point at all did I claim a FMJ bullet to be an ideal deer hunting bullet. But you flat said that it couldn't be done. That is absolute load of horse chit sir. You have changed your stance and your story, made rehortical comments, only to be called on them, and then gotten defense for being wrong in the first place! You are here to start fights, and your last paragraph shows it. How in the hell can you insult someones hunting ability, when you have no way of knowing what it is! Keep this sort of crap up, and see how long you get to stick around here. |
RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
ORIGINAL: Pavomesa ORIGINAL: SwampCollie I've never had deer do anything but flop when I hit them in the right spot. Doesn't matter whether it was with a .17, 204, 7-08 or what. Bang, flop. I think bullet performance has almost little or nothing to do with it. As long as the bullet gets to where it was intended it has performed. I don't care about how much it expands or whatever. As long as it gets there, it performed. You asked about shock... you got an answer... sorry you didn't like it. Have you ever hunted anything besides ducks?[:-] Anyone who makes a statement like "Bullet performance has almost little or nothing to do with it" doesn't know the butt plate from the muzzle about hunting. All those who don't believe bullet performance has anything to do with killing raise their hands.:D:D:eek: While you are crawfishing around and changing your stories, Swampus, would you like to admit you were full of crap here about bullet performance having "little or nothing to do with it?" I think it's time yougrow a pairand admit you don't know what your spouting off about half the time.:eek: |
RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
At no point did I say I shoot FMJ bullets at deer. You made that up Pavo. All you are trying to do here is fight, and you are intentionally making false statements in the process. Go back and read the posts. I never said that I use FMJ bullets on deer. NEVER. The only thing I said was that a FMJ bullet will kill a deer. Do you disagree? You still haven't shared anything positive on this thread. All you have done is try to insult me, and now you are calling me a liar. Both of which I take exception to. I don't know what your problem is with me, but I haven't done anything to you. I harvest deer on damage permits. Mostly on private farms, in areas where the deer herd often exceeds 150 animals per square mile. We are licensed through our state game department to take deer at just about any time of the year, with certain exceptions. I certainly would not say that they are "penned" up as you claim. They receive very little hunting pressure, which makes them easier to hunt certainly. You don't have to be a brain surgueon to hit a deer in the brain with a rifle at 75 yards. Shooting a deer at distances inside 100 yards from a rock solid rest ain't exactly a feat of accuracy. With regards to the deer being cooperative.... all it involves is a little patience and shot selection. Quite often in areas like this you will see well over 20 deer at a time grazing in the bean fields. Not exactly like they are elusive or anything. The deer season opens August 15 and runs through January 1. 7 days a week for nearly 5 months. I usually hunt between 5 and 7 afternoons a week. Do the math. And that is just during the season when we are not using crop damage tags. I don't know what is so hard to believe about that? Honestly have you never heard of herd reduction permits? They are a pretty common thing in my part of the world with farmers who depend on crop success for a living. You were the one who brought up FMJ bullets. Not me. You never even bothered to ask what kind of bullets I shot. I asked you, but all you could do was attack my character. That is not what these forums are for. I shoot Barnes TSX and Gamekings because they shoot well out my guns. Like I wrote, bullet placement is critical... why wouldn't I shoot a bullet that shoots the best out of my guns?!?!? All you have done on this thread is twist words, make up things that I never said, and try to discredit me. I have no idea what your problem is with me... or what your weird obsession is. Puff up my self esteem?...... you made a comment that I was not a hunter... or that I only hunted ducks (and I do duck and turkey hunt a lot... I prefer it actually)....you insinuated that I had no experience with the topic at hand. I have experience with it. Sorry if that ruffles your feathers. Hunting isn't some numbers contest, but I have shot a lot of deer. Oh my God... I must be full of crap because I shot more deer than you... get real man! If you got to hunt almost 100 afternoons a year in a very target rich environment don't you think you'd succeed fairly often? Pavo I'm done with this. Sorry its hard to believe that someone can kill a heck of a lot of deer when they have access to a lot of property with a lot of deer, get to hunt almost 100 afternoons a year and have so many doe tags and damage tags we could never fill them. |
RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
ORIGINAL: Pavomesa ORIGINAL: Pavomesa ORIGINAL: SwampCollie I've never had deer do anything but flop when I hit them in the right spot. Doesn't matter whether it was with a .17, 204, 7-08 or what. Bang, flop. I think bullet performance has almost little or nothing to do with it. As long as the bullet gets to where it was intended it has performed. I don't care about how much it expands or whatever. As long as it gets there, it performed. You asked about shock... you got an answer... sorry you didn't like it. Have you ever hunted anything besides ducks?[:-] Anyone who makes a statement like "Bullet performance has almost little or nothing to do with it" doesn't know the butt plate from the muzzle about hunting. All those who don't believe bullet performance has anything to do with killing raise their hands.:D:D:eek: While you are crawfishing around and changing your stories, Swampus, would you like to admit you were full of crap here about bullet performance having "little or nothing to do with it?" I think it's time you grow a pair and admit you don't know what your spouting off about half the time.:eek: Care to make any more insults? |
RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
ORIGINAL: Briman Either the bullet was deflected, or I missed, or whatever... or it got to the target. Things may look 'black or white' to you, but the 'or whatever' is probably a deer that you shot poorly.[:@] I am very careful in the following up of a shot to search for any indication of a hit. The head shots I do take are always from a very solid rest, and they are all at what I consider close ranges for deer hunting (under 100 yards). I have infact, however, botched the shot before. Not often, but the deer were recovered in every case. I have been fortunate enough to have never seriously hurt one and not recover it. In my case, the shot has cut the corroted artery or jugular vein, and the deer has bled out inside 100 yards. That is a user (me) failure. Like you Briman, I have seen the results of botched head shots, where the deer was not recovered much after the fact. Mostly this is due to people taking unreasonable shots at greater distances. If the deer does not offer a good head shot opportunity... thats what the shoulder shot is for. I prefer the shoulder shot personally... but I'm certainly not above head shooting one with a rifle if the deer presents a good opportunity for it. You just need to be honest with your limitations. I think I've done a good job of that over the years, which is why I get invited back again by landowners who need deer killed. |
RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
Swamp, my problem with your posts is your claim that bullet performance has "little or nothing to do with it." This is an utterly absurd statement. My point was and is simply that if this were true, then we may as well all shoot FMJ's and save our money. Apparently in your world one bullet is as good as the next. The 8 pages later you say you are buying Barnes Triple Shock.:eek: Isn't that a little strange for a guy with your supposed beliefs about bullets? Especially since most of your deer kills are cripples...or as you put it..."damaged deer."
As I've said, most of us hunt in the real world and against real...undamaged deer...that can run and jump and twist and turn and sometimes take a lot of killing. They don't stand around dazed and half dead waiting for us to put a muzzle to their skull and pull the trigger. But whatever, I'm way beyond sick of this. You go on preaching how bullet performance has "little or nothing to do with it." All you ever had to say was that was a stupid remark and I misspoke. Some guys just try to cover their tracks with BS. You're a good example. Lord knows I don't know it all and never claimed other wise. I've probably killed between 40 -50 head of deer in my whole life...mule and whitetail. Let me just say none of my experiences much jive with anything you're spouting. (And only 1 of those deer was hit anywhere but inthe boiler room. Cross canyon shot at deer standing in brush.) I've got more respect for the animals than to risk screwy shots at their heads. And most real hunters try to avoid blowing their deer's heads apart for some reason. Only the "trick shooters" like you go for the head and that little 1" diameter spine shot. |
RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
ORIGINAL: Pavomesa Swamp, my problem with your posts is your claim that bullet performance has "little or nothing to do with it." This is an utterly absurd statement. My point was and is simply that if this were true, then we may as well all shoot FMJ's and save our money. Apparently in your world one bullet is as good as the next. The 8 pages later you say you are buying Barnes Triple Shock.:eek: Isn't that a little strange for a guy with your supposed beliefs about bullets? Especially since most of your deer kills are cripples...or as you put it..."damaged deer." As I've said, most of us hunt in the real world and against real...undamaged deer...that can run and jump and twist and turn and sometimes take a lot of killing. They don't stand around dazed and half dead waiting for us to put a muzzle to their skull and pull the trigger. But whatever, I'm way beyond sick of this. You go on preaching how bullet performance has "little or nothing to do with it." All you ever had to say was that was a stupid remark and I misspoke. Some guys just try to cover their tracks with BS. You're a good example. Lord knows I don't know it all and never claimed other wise. I've probably killed between 40 -50 head of deer in my whole life...mule and whitetail. Let me just say none of my experiences much jive with anything you're spouting. (And only 1 of those deer was hit anywhere but in the boiler room. Cross canyon shot at deer standing in brush.) I've got more respect for the animals than to risk screwy shots at their heads. And most real hunters try to avoid blowing their deer's heads apart for some reason. Only the "trick shooters" like you go for the head and that little 1" diameter spine shot. See this honestly shows the problem here Pavo, I suppose iyou could call it a difference in culture, and since I suspect you were born and raised in Texas, I think you honestly just do not understand what I'm talking about. I mean positively no insult by that. I'm not covering any tracks with BS, its just that things where I live are a lot different than where you live. "Damage deer" (your terminology) are not cripples. Deer eat crops... espeically green soybeans (soybean plants are green as they grow, then turn yellow/brown and harden as the crop matures)... and they will eat them right down to the dirt. They love to eat the tops out of them, and all the shoots and stems and leaves... they really don't care for the bean itself al that much, especially once it hardens up. Damage refers to CROP damage, not "damaged" deer. We are shooting the deer that are litterally eating us and our neighbors out of pocket. A certain amount of loss is to be expected, but in years like the past three when we get maybe one day of rain a month and the crops are poor anyway, too many deer will litterally cause a farmer to take a loss on his crops. In wake of that, the state game departments send out biologists and game wardens who assess the amount of crop damage as well as the status of the deer herd, and issue us tags for a certain number of deer every year in excess of our seasonal bag limits (which are still bound only by two a day per hunter for 4 1/2 months). You won't see any "cross canyon" shots from me. Heck no. Its flat as a lake out here. The humidity and mirage are typically so bad in the early fall that you can't see more than 200 yards anyway, and I can seriously count on one hand the number of deer in my life I have shot in excess of 199 yards. There is a reason why we head/spine shoot deer to drop them in their tracks: There are two kinds of land around here, 1) land that is above water, which by and large is either dense forrest or fields, and 2) land that is under water, basically swamps. You can blood trail deer fairly easily on dry ground, but its not so simple when you go tromping through cottonmouth infested mud and knee/waste deep water. There are so many deer tracks and trails that if you don't stay on blood, you cannot just follow a deer trail or track and expect to find your deer. You can spend a heck of a lot of time looking for deer, and you will find them eventually if you go slow, have enough people that know what they are doing with you and give them time to lay down... or you can avoid that and drop them where they stand. A lot of the time when a deer is mortally wounded, or even just injured or sick, it will head for water. And water is royal pain to deal with. Is it so hard to hit a 1" target at under 100 yards? I don't think so... not off what amounts to a benchrest. There is no trick shooting to it at all. By your own admission, you have shot at deer standing in brush. To me, that is flat irresponsible. I only take shots that I know I can make. Otherwise, I don't shoot. Its not like I'm hard up for deer or anything. Its just a deer. There are more around, no point in bitching one up because she wouldn't stand still or was a little too far away. Yes deer do twist and jump and run... but I don't shoot at deer that are doing that. I wait for them to stop! If they don't stop... fine... no shot presented itself. No big thing. Bullet performance as most people define doesn't have anything to do with dropping a deer for me. As long as it gets where it was intended. It doesn't matter if its a rapid expanding bullet (I shoot 32gr V-Max bullets out of the 204) or deep pentrating bullets (like the TSXs in my 7-08)... they do the job when they get put in the right spot. The reason I shoot TSX bullets out of my 7-08 and gamekings out of the 30-30 AI is because those bullets are the most accurate of anything I have tried out of them. The fact that the TSX bullets are going to stay together and get to the spine is important sure, but if I put it in the wrong place, say if I shot a deer in the can, then it really doesn't matter does it. I think that our hunting styles are VASTLY different, and that is probably what lead to a lot of this back and forth crap. |
RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
stubblejumper, read!, all of it.
I guess Ill chime in agan, hydrostatic shock is the term used for the wound channel created by the design of the bullit, all bullits create hydrostatic shock. Many factors make up a bullit and what it does to the material it hits. To start, the design of the bullit; FMJ, Soft point, protected point, Ballistic tip and ets., next you need a powder charge, a charge designed to get the bullit downrange and at the correct velocity to make the bullit do what it was designed to do, expand, fragment, yaw. The firearm that its shot from also changes the effect, 16" bbl, 18" bbl, 22" bbl, 26" bbl, if thecartridge is designed "reloaded"to be shot from a 26" barrel, exterior ballistics will change dramaticly if shot from a 16" bbl and the hydrostatic shock will be lessoned greatly. To get back to the original posters question, increasing velocity on one perticular bullit can do good or bad, it is the design of the bullit that determine it, will it increase the hydrostatic shock on an animal, possible, will the bullit function to its design, maybe, but when your talking 3 to 400 fps, will it kill an animal any quicker than a bullit traveling slower, NO! Shot placement is themain thing that determines how quick an animal expires, if I could get away with it 100% of the time, I would make them all head shots, then I wouldnt spend hours trying to come up with a better bullit to shoot!. The only mistakes I see was a few poor choice words, I should have used cartridge instaed of bullet when talking about the length of barrel, I do beleive the definition is correct!and should have used a different word than only, so sue me!. the point still remains, shot placement, no matter how you look at it, is still the biggest factor in the equasion. Remember, many of people and animals were killed, some almost instantainious with lead balls and black powder, I beleive they were slow and heavy, not real performers. By the way, your the only one that really has any problem with my post, if you would read it all, maybe you wouldnt. |
RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
The only mistakes I see was a few poor choice words, I should have used cartridge instaed of bullet when talking about the length of barrel, the point still remains, shot placement, no matter how you look at it, is still the biggest factor in the equasion. |
RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
So be it, SC. No, I wasn't born and raised in Texas. And I'm aware not everyone hunts in the same sort of ball park. My "cross canyon" shot was the 2nd deer I ever killed and it was a steep canyon. Actual A to B distance about 200 yds and I was shooting a rifle with iron sights and couldn't see the dead branches between me and the deer. But no matter. It didn't go 50 feet. I just hate a poorly shot animal...especially when I do it and regardless if I have a good excuse or not.
I'm not an authority on much of anything. But one thing I've sure done is spend a lifetime experimenting with bullets of all sorts, including designing and building some of my own, jacketed and cast. One thing I've learned very well is there is such a thing as bullet performance...or the lack of it. And the effect can be dramatic. Good luck with your future hunts. |
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