Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

Does anyone out there believe there's some truth to the idea that a high velocity round will make an animal drop dead on the spot more likely than a slower / avg round? Many standard rounds shoot around 3000fps or slower....nowadays and weatherby years ago love high velocity rounds, some now are 3200, or 3400+ fps ? Do you think for an animal that there's a velocity threshold that once passed will cause death immediatly? I think some call this hydrostatic shock? Do you think a 180gr going 3400fps will drop a deer/elk better than a 180gr going 2900fps?

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

Higher velocity = killing power, no!, flatter trajectory and farther down range accuracy, YES!!. No matter what the velocity is" within range", shot placement will determine a quick kill, all bullits create hydrostatic shock, all that is, is the term used for the bullit impacting a water formed barrier " animals, people, ballistic gellitan", the amount of hydrostatic shock is baced by bullit shape " hollow point, soft point, full metal jacket".

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

I have found that my quickest kills were with high velocity cartridges,however,I believe that the fact that the wound channel was larger was far more of a factor than hydrostatic shock.

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

This one can be argued ad nauseum, and it will always come down to what you're comfortable with.

For the tinkerers out there, there's always the newest case, that will hold ever the smallest bit more powder, & get the chronograph to measure those precious extra few fps that will make their heart dance with joy. For me, it usually comes back to a decently constructed bullet, not too light for caliber, at 2,400 to 2,900 fps. I can get factory loads in this range for little $$$ (in the calibers I shoot), that group wonderfully, and that seem to get the critters as dead as I need 'em.

To (mis)quote a poster from another site, "It aint energy kills animals, it's holes!".

Then there's the one about, "the squashed bugs on my truck's windshield proves the 'heavy projectile at a low velocity' theory."

In the words o' Forrest Gump, "That's all I have to say about that."

FC

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

There is only one thing that will cause instant death and that is a shot to the brain. Period end of story. Regardless of how fast or slow a bullet is traveling at impact.

No a spine shot does not cause instant death. It causes instant paralysis until the brain is depleated of oxygen and dies.

A faster bullet with adequate construction can cause the animal to drop right then but it still isn't dead. The theory is that the faster bullet causes more shock to the body and with perfect timing can cause instant ruptures of blood vessels in the brain basically causing a massive stroke and causing the animal to collapse.

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

If velocity has no effect, I guess then we should expect the same results from a 40 gr bullet out of 22 LR as a 40 gr bullet from a 22/250?:D:D Anyone who has ever dressed out their own deer has likely seen the effects of hydrostatic shock. And it's silly to deny it can increase the lethality of a bullet.

But just how all this affects killing power is something we can argue until we are pea green in the face. As we increase velocity, a lot of other variable increase as well. For instance ENERGY[&:] The faster any projectile is going, the more energy it has. I would argue that SOMETIMEShigher velocity can certainly = increased killing power. But let's not get lost in the issue of just how quick an animal is medically "dead."

Again, if we consider a deer properly shot through the boiler room, i.e. heart/lung area, when we dress out this animal we find that most of the hydrostatic shock was actually delivered to the muscle tissue...especially on the exit side. A bullet hardly knows it has touched a heart or lung. Assuming text book bullet performance, I suspect what the higher velocity round does is accellerate just how fast an animal will go DOWN simply because more of him is damaged.

But text book bullet performance doesn't always happen for sure. Sometimes higher velocity can cause bullets to explode on impact...sometimes causing crazy wounds that may or may not kill quickly. In such cases the higher velocity was likely more of a handicap.

And just how much hydrostatic shock can any given projectile create...regardless of velocity??? In other words, it we shoot a deer with an 87 gr bullet going 2,300 fps...........how much greater would be the "HS" and its effect if we shot the same deer with the same bullet going 3.300 fps? What about 4,300 fps??? My point is we've only got the same very small projectile. At what point in velocity has it imparted all the damage it can do?

I don't have a clue to the answer to this. All I can do is affirm that velocity most assuredly has an effect........up to a point. It's defining exactly WHERE that point ends that I can't answer.

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

Yes I do.Shooting a 22 caliber Super Explosive bullet at high speeds will do this on small game. Heck, they could even disappear...

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

To go along with RR. I read an article about why game is sometimes DRT and sometimes not with the same shot. It took the research of two vets in Africa that were culling the population of a buffalo herd with a .338 (most would say small for a buff). They would shoot all in the same Heart lung area and some would collapse on the spot some would run. They would then examine the carcass and proform and autopse. What they found was when the bullet impacted at the moment of a heart beat a sudden spike in blood pressure was cause resulting in all the blood vessels in the brain expolding and a DRT buffalo.

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

I think there are two effective methods of killing.. One from a high velocity round (say upwards of 3400 FPS) and the other from sheer energy (Slower larger grain bullets say 250 grains or more traveling below 2400 FPS) The faster bullet cause extreme shock to the animal and the other is just plain brute force.. That being said I think that there is gap where many of today's rifles fall intowhere the speed and bullet weight combination are not enough for shock and are to much for brute force.Yes they will kill animals by taking out the vitals.. But a 150 Grain bullet traveling 2900 FPS is not fast enough to cause extreme shock and not heavy/slow enough to transfer the full energy into the animal.. It simply slices thru taking out the lungs.. Much like a arrow would do..

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

Here is the article it was from Outdoor Life and written by Jim Carmicheal.

http://www.outdoorlife.com/article.jsp?ID=21010996&page=4&typeID=425& amp;categoryID=1125&adid=T425/C1125

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

I guess my experience differs from several others on here. For me the slower bullets such as the 180's from a 3006 shot from a 742 almost always dropped the deer where they stood. With my 270 and 7-08 I very seldom get drop in their tracks hit reactions... I have seen a lot of bang flops with the 30-30 and 45/70 as well.

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

Doe, the problem with this and many such threads is we are pondering subjects with so many variables that we have little control over that none of us know much of what we are talking about. It's absurd to say velocity doesn't help. But how much? When? How does it work? What should a bullet do or not do for this benefit to happen? As for your case with the /06, the 270 and the 7/08.........you're talking about very similar velocities, diameters and I suspect even bullet weights. I assume you are including similar shot placement as well? It makes me wonder about actual bullet performance. How much did each bullet open up, blow up or otherwise react with the target animal?

Another factor that I've seen have great influence is what was an animals frame of mind when shot. A frightened or alerted animal is 10X more likely to run like hell after being shot than an animal peacefully grazing and unaware danger was anywhere around. Once they get charged up with adrenaline, they may as well be on heroin.

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

In the end its the wound left by the bullet that counts and there are a lot of veriables to get there.

But the longest and widest wound is the most deadly. And that means penitration, which means momentum. Momentum isvelocity Xmass andmass belongs to the bullet. So for two bullets of equal momentum the bullet with the most weight wins. Because more of its momentum isexpressin mass and it maintains more of its momentum while the lighter faster bullet sheds is momentum. KE is stored energy expressed in foot pounds which is a two dimentional measured which has no value by its self and nothing to do with momentum.

Now its back to prespective. Forgame less than 200 lbs most sporting rifles can (but not always) drop them right there with velocies over say 2600fps. But so will the same calbullet at 2000fps? Next as the game gets bigger inflated energy numbers by high velocity don't mean squawt.Unless thats a 50 cal BMG round at +2800fps and than its ganna matter even to an elk. Because its from a bigger bullet, Make that a 3600fps 25cal not so much.

So do I think a 200lb deer hit with a 180gr 308 cal bullet that propery expanded at 2500fps would die faster if it were hit by a 180gr 308 cal bullet that properly expanded at 3100fps. NOits dead. That why high velocity magnums don't make a differance untill your shooting past say 300 yards, where there flater trojectories and suitable energys at those extended ranges work. Work the same as standard cartridges do at less than 300yards.

Back to the wound. Arrows just like bullets can kill by massive and instintaniousdrop in blood pressure called shock, its not the shock of the bullet. Arrows have no energy or velocity to speak of but I have dropped bear and deer that were on the ground in 2-3 seconds never kicked past 10 seconds. Just read were two 250lbs football players hitting at 15 mph produce like energy levels as most high powered rifles do yet the live. The differance is what was done with that energy. It all goes back to producing a better wound. And I still see the bullets that retain 60%-70% of their weight as the more lethal ones than the 100% er's for this reason. And why how much energy the bullet has left after exiting the animal has little to no bering on the wound it left.

I should point out that more burusing around a bullet hole dose not mean it was more lethal. What counts is how fast the blood pressure dropped and that is usualy faster with less tramaor brusingthan with more. The most DRT shots I have made were with slower velocity rounds that don't damage as much meat for table fare but the eat right to the hole.Thesewounds did cause extream internal and external bleeding. Thats why sharp broadheadswork better than dull ones do.

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

Hydrostatic shock is bound by the law of deminishing returns. The effect a bullet and its "shock" can have on an animal depends entirely upon the energy the bullet creates, but more by the force of the resistance put on that bullet by the mass of the animal you are shooting.

Lets take your .22-250 example and your 40 gr bullet and shoot two targets with it. First, lets shoot a rabbit. A BIG rabbit will weigh about three pounds. A .22-250 with a 40gr bullet will be traveling about 4150 fps (depending on who you believe) and that gives it an energy of 1530 ft/#s. If you make that a ratio, between the energy of the bullet and mass/resistance of the animal, you'll get 510:1. If anyone hasnever shot or seen the result ofa rabbit, or other small game shotwith something like a .22-250, its about like a dump truck running over a cat... you end up with a bloody/furry sort of toupee. Now, use that same bullet on a big bodied whitetail deer in the mid-west. We will say that he is live weight 250#s. Now the ratio is down to 6.12:1. That is less than the ratio would be if you were to bean that same deer with a 90 mph fastball (assuming the baseball was the lightest allowable weight of 5oz... if it were the maximum of 5.25 oz... then the ration would be even larger). Surfacearea of course prevents the baseball from having the same effect as a bullet, but the shock wave or energy transfer to the body is the same.

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

I'll say it again, my friends. A LOT ofanyeffect has to do with BULLET PERFORMANCE and the frame of mind of the animal in question....not just whatever numbers we want to toss around. There is a whole list of things that need to clickfor any of this work. We cannot answer this question with formulas. Probably all of us have witnessed glaring exceptions to both sides of the argument.

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

A good majority of my kills..prob 60% have came from treestands shooting at deer that are as relaxed as an open firearms season allows them to be. The 30-06 load in question was a slow one coming out of a short barrel...it was around nose 180 power point winchester whichalmost without fail put them on the ground where they stood. I had a lethal combo with that gun until someone stole the f'in thing. Im not telling you guys how they will do every time..Im just telling ya MY experiences. I had some bang flops with the 270...moreso than the 7-08 but not the amount that the slow heavy bullets got for me. Thats half the reason I have started wrking the 300 Savage in to my hunting as it seems to lay them low very quickly for me at a whopping 2450 fps. The deer I have been around when shot and have shot myself have almost always dropped faster when shot with a slower moving bullet. It might not be your exerpience..but it is mine. It may not be right but it is what works for me. They all kill so it really doesnt matter but sometimes you want to see the animal fall where its hit...unless we can make them run uphill :D


I see your point also RR as when they do hit the ground they try like hell to get back up but they just dont seem to make it to their feet. As far as the actual killing part the fast ones may very well do it...I got somewhat sidetracked on the drop time vs. kill time after the shot. My bad...

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

RR, it sure wasn't going 3,500 fps at the 500 yd line. But at what velocity does a bullet start transmiting massive amounts of hydraulic shock? I dunno.[:-] And most likely at that range the deer was pretty relaxed or maybe even unaware the grim reaper was near. From what I've seen, you can knock a relaxed deer over with a fly swatter. They die easy. But put one in panic mode and it's a different story. Shucks, I've seen jackrabbits that were almost shot in half drag themselves 50 yards before dying. Adrenalin is a powerful medicine.

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

Take a given bullet and push it faster, the faster you push it, the more damage it will do.
Fine examples will be
a .22lr and a 22-250
a .308 and a .300 UM
a .50 ML and a 50 BMG
But theres a lot of variables as to whats better. A 50 gr bullet at 3500fps is not better than a 180gr at 2700fps but a 180gr is better at 3500fps.
And then theres penetration, take a 180gr sp bullet , it will penetrate more at 2600fps then at 3500 fps.
Things start to blow up with anything above 2500 fps, anything above 3500 fps and weird stuff starts to happen

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

I believe that would be called femoral artery contact...or maybe voodoo? :D

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

I've never had deer do anything but flop when I hit them in the right spot. Doesn't matter whether it was with a .17, 204, 7-08 or what. Bang, flop. I think bullet performance has almost little or nothing to do with it. As long as the bullet gets to where it was intended it has performed. I don't care about how much it expands or whatever. As long as it gets there, it performed. You asked about shock... you got an answer... sorry you didn't like it.

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

When using the nosler partition,I found that deer tended to run a bit after being hit.When I used the ballistic tip,they fell on the spot,or within a few steps.In my opinion,bullet performance has a lot to do with it.

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

Dad always said speed kills.:D

I drive my bullets as fast as they will go while maintaining safe pressures and accuracy. Reason bigger wound channels and flatter trajectory. IME the bigger the wound the less they travel. Of course the quint essential is selecting the proper toolfor the task and shot placement. I certainly wouldn't pick a 22-250 at 4000fps to hunt deer over a .308win at 2800fps. Just as I wouldn't pick a NBT in my 7mm rem mag for hunting moose/elk either, though I would (and do) use a 140gr Barnes TSX that leaves the muzzle at over 3200fps for moose/elk. I match the bullet to the task and then drive it as hard as it will allow into the vitals.

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

"I've never had deer do anything but flop when I hit them in the right spot. Doesn't matter whether it was with a .17, 204, 7-08 or what. Bang, flop."

+1

Hitting them in the right place makes all the difference. Meanwhile the search for the magic bullet that will turn a gut shot into a bang flop 100 percent of the time continues.

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

In other words, Swamp, we can all hunt with FMJs and get the same results?:D:D

Have you ever hunted anything besides ducks?

All those who don't believe bullet performance has anything to do with killing raise their hands.:D:D:eek:

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

From what you just discribed no. It sounds like you hit the femoral arttery and it was put down by reped loss of blood press and thus no oxygen to the brainor musslesAK anfalatic shock. And at 500 plus yards what is your impact velocity? Say 1700-2000 fps which gose to show it is not th shock of the bullet. Just a good 100% wound, the bullet exited, it did all it could do where you put it.

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

No thats not right.
Lets take a 40gr lead bullet shot from that 22lr at 1200fps. And that same lead 40gr bullet loaded in the 22-250. The Lr will make a longer wound because it will hold together better than the explopoding on impact load we just made. Testing on geletin and jugs of water have proven this time and time again. And on very large African game the slower big bores are more effective than small bore are.Thats .308 and smaller mags. And they have laws in place for this reason. As for the lead bullet in the 22-250 it can't be done even the lighter jacketed 22 cal bullets have come apart at 22-250 velocies just encountering air let alone game. Heavy for caliber bullets out penitrate light for caliber bullets and for each individual cartridge they are slower.

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

TJEN - Anaphylactic shock has nothing to do with bullets. It's a severe allergic reaction some people have to certain things, like bee stings or food allergies.

And I'm thinking you haven't shot many 22/250s. I own one and have shot it (and my brother's 220 Swift) with all weights of bullets and I've NEVER had one come apart due to air resistance. That's an old wive's tale.

Granted you'll never get a swagged .22 LR slug up to that velocity in a .22/250...wrong diameter for starters. When I suggested people compare the 40 gr 22 LR with a 40 gr from .22/250 it was never my intent to suggest a literal swap of the bullets. There are a couple here who suggest velocity makes no difference and one at least who thinks bullet performance makes no difference. Both notions are pure horse feathers.

I once heard another absurdity in a gunstore one day when a fellow was telling me his bullets "went too fast to open up or expand.":D:D:D

As for the length of the wound channel......that depends on what the bullet does. And I have seen largefragments of bullets that actually blew up come out the other side of deer...something you will rarely ever see a .22 LR do. I've shot large jackrabbits with a 243 and seen my bullet go through the animal like an AP. (And I don't think they were going too fast to open up.) And for those who don't think bullet performance makes any difference, those rabbits staggered off a ways before they fell over and died. When the same bullets did decide to perform and open up, they almost blew the rabbit in half. Obviously those rabbits were dead before they hit the ground.

We need to be careful about making sweeping statements about what bullets can and can't do. Sometimes this can be very far from fact. JMHO

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

I hunt deer with a 243 or my 308 and with the same shot at a broadside animal to the shoulder I find the same results,a dead deer laying where it was standing.I beleive that to many variables are involved in making this judgement to say that more power is better.At longer ranges beyond 300 or so yards,that faster calibers capable of shooting heavy enough bullits to retain energy clearly do a better job,but this is not as evident at shorter ranges,because dead is dead,and most calibers capable of shooting a 150 plus grain bullit at around 2800 fps or faster is capable of on the spot kills on deer and smaller bullits at 3200 fps or faster can do the same.This is only my opinion,my friend shoots a 7mm mag.but he didnt recover his deer last year after knocking it down it got up and run off,so no matter what you shot power can'not make up for poor shot placement.This is my opinion on this subject,some may beleive more is better,and I agree when it involves money!!!

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

Absolutely you can kill deer with FMJ bullets. A lot of the guys I hunted with SC used their high power match ARs with Berger bullets. You are just going to have to learn how to shoot and not use violently expanding bullets as a crutch for your inaccuracy. Not that you are inaccurate or anything....:eek:

Yes I hunt things other than ducks. I've been culling deer on farms, golf courses and neighborhoods for the last 8 years. There has not been a calendar year in the past 8 that I have not personally shot at least 40 deer, some during the season when everyone gets to hunt, but most during the late winter and late summer. This is acctually prime time of the year for us; though most of my shooting now-a-days is with the bow through the urban archery programs. Done at night a lot of it, all of it legal on kill permits (DCAP). I've seen what lots of bullets can do to deer, and from lots of different calibers. Trust me, if you put a bullet right where it needs to go, a deer won't do anything but pile up.... but all of those shots involve the brain or the nervous system. So in your eyes that might not count. And yes, I guess I don't know anything about hunting... which is why I get paid to do it....:eek:

So again I make my statement that it doesn't matter whether you shoot a deer in the brain with a FMJ or a Nosler Partition or an A-Square.... the result is going to be the same if the bullet goes where it was intended to go.

Your insulting comments only show how mad you are about not being completely 100% on target. Its not that what you said is wrong, its just that there is much more to it than that. Bullet performance does matter if you are shooting deer behind the shoulder (which is where you are supposed to shoot them with a bow... not a rifle... not if you don't want to track them some of the time). You make 300+ posts in just over a month and suddenly you are mister information........Deleted by CalHunter... :eek:

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

If you cannot kill a jackrabbit... how in the hell do you propose to kill a deer? I thought Texans could shoot with the best of 'em? Hell my nephew shoot rabbits dead on the spot with a single shot .410... here you are banging away with a .243 and coming up short. I don't think bullet performance is your problem bro... I think its bullet placement.

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

I have not had to track any big game animal that I have shot in over 10 years.Almost all were shot behind the shoulder with a high velocity cartridge using either a nosler ballistic tip or a barnes tsx.

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

Which is why you shoot ballistic tips... we've had our rounds on this one stubble. It works for you. Keep on layin' em out. ;)

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

Cutehow you've changed your story, Swamp. Now all of a sudden bullet performance DOES matter and you want totry to spin your ignorant remarksoff into some BS about brain shots. Well...........duh..................you don't even need abullet to kill an animal hitting it in the brain. A hammer will work just fine. Or even a rock.:)

Sure youcan kill a deer with an FMJ. An idiot knows that. I wonder why most states outlaw the use of FMJ's for hunting deer?:D Could it be they know something you haven't figured out yet?[8D]

Shucks, you can kill an elephant with a brainshot and an FMJ...or if you've got a week and nothing better to do, you can kill an elephant with an FMJ and shoot him somewhere else.:eek: What does this have to do with hunting and bullet performance?

You can CLAIM to have killed half the animals in this hemisphere. Talk's cheap. But I tell you again, your ignorance of bullet performance and its role in huntingshows you don't know the butt plate from the muzzle. Anyone who hasn't seen the difference inwhatbulletscan and can't do hasn't hunted much. Maybe someday you'll have a clue and I won't have to waste my time trying toeducate you.:(

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

There's a big differrence between a Berger and a FMJ though. Walt Berger tested his match bullets on a wide variety of game and found that they almost unerringly penetrate about 4" intact, then very violently expand- traits that would make for a very good hunting bullet.

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

No, I don't believe in the tooth fairy or hydrostatic shock.

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

How the story changes.:D:D:D:D

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

I guess Ill chime in agan, hydrostatic shock is the term used for the wound channel created by the design of the bullit, all bullits create hydrostatic shock. Many factors make up a bullit and what it does to the material it hits. To start, the design of the bullit; FMJ, Soft point, protected point, Ballistic tip and ets., next you need a powder charge, a charge designed to get the bullit downrange and at the correct velocity to make the bullit do what it was designed to do, expand, fragment, yaw. The firearm that its shot from also changes the effect, 16" bbl, 18" bbl, 22" bbl, 26" bbl, if thecartridge is designed "reloaded"to be shot from a 26" barrel, exterior ballistics will change dramaticly if shot from a 16" bbl and the hydrostatic shock will be lessoned greatly. To get back to the original posters question, increasing velocity on one perticular bullit can do good or bad, it is the design of the bullit that determine it, will it increase the hydrostatic shock on an animal, possible, will the bullit function to its design, maybe, but when your talking 3 to 400 fps, will it kill an animal any quicker than a bullit traveling slower, NO! Shot placement is the main thing that determines how quick an animal expires, if I could get away with it 100% of the time, I would make them all head shots, then I wouldnt spend hours trying to come up with a better bullit to shoot!.

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

Not at all true.If shot through the lungs with a non expanding bullet,the animal may run a long ways before expiring.With the exact same shot placement and a rapid expanding bullet,the animal will normally expire much quicker.
And there is no such thing as a bullit.:D:D:D:D:D

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

*Slaps forehead*I'll have to check my boxes of 'bullits' to see if any of them are designed for a certain length of barrel. I might have been doing this realoding thing wrong all of these years.

RE: Anyone believe in high-velocity killing power?
 

Is every bullet also designed for a specific cartridge as well,considering that a .284" bullet can be driven quicker out of a 24" barreled 7mmremmag than a 26" barreled 7mm-08.:eek: