Doe Dumper

I guess my experience differs from several others on here. For me the slower bullets such as the 180's from a 3006 shot from a 742 almost always dropped the deer where they stood. With my 270 and 7-08 I very seldom get drop in their tracks hit reactions... I have seen a lot of bang flops with the 30-30 and 45/70 as well.

Pavomesa

Doe, the problem with this and many such threads is we are pondering subjects with so many variables that we have little control over that none of us know much of what we are talking about. It's absurd to say velocity doesn't help. But how much? When? How does it work? What should a bullet do or not do for this benefit to happen? As for your case with the /06, the 270 and the 7/08.........you're talking about very similar velocities, diameters and I suspect even bullet weights. I assume you are including similar shot placement as well? It makes me wonder about actual bullet performance. How much did each bullet open up, blow up or otherwise react with the target animal?

Another factor that I've seen have great influence is what was an animals frame of mind when shot. A frightened or alerted animal is 10X more likely to run like hell after being shot than an animal peacefully grazing and unaware danger was anywhere around. Once they get charged up with adrenaline, they may as well be on heroin.

TJEN

In the end its the wound left by the bullet that counts and there are a lot of veriables to get there.

But the longest and widest wound is the most deadly. And that means penitration, which means momentum. Momentum isvelocity Xmass andmass belongs to the bullet. So for two bullets of equal momentum the bullet with the most weight wins. Because more of its momentum isexpressin mass and it maintains more of its momentum while the lighter faster bullet sheds is momentum. KE is stored energy expressed in foot pounds which is a two dimentional measured which has no value by its self and nothing to do with momentum.

Now its back to prespective. Forgame less than 200 lbs most sporting rifles can (but not always) drop them right there with velocies over say 2600fps. But so will the same calbullet at 2000fps? Next as the game gets bigger inflated energy numbers by high velocity don't mean squawt.Unless thats a 50 cal BMG round at +2800fps and than its ganna matter even to an elk. Because its from a bigger bullet, Make that a 3600fps 25cal not so much.

So do I think a 200lb deer hit with a 180gr 308 cal bullet that propery expanded at 2500fps would die faster if it were hit by a 180gr 308 cal bullet that properly expanded at 3100fps. NOits dead. That why high velocity magnums don't make a differance untill your shooting past say 300 yards, where there flater trojectories and suitable energys at those extended ranges work. Work the same as standard cartridges do at less than 300yards.

Back to the wound. Arrows just like bullets can kill by massive and instintaniousdrop in blood pressure called shock, its not the shock of the bullet. Arrows have no energy or velocity to speak of but I have dropped bear and deer that were on the ground in 2-3 seconds never kicked past 10 seconds. Just read were two 250lbs football players hitting at 15 mph produce like energy levels as most high powered rifles do yet the live. The differance is what was done with that energy. It all goes back to producing a better wound. And I still see the bullets that retain 60%-70% of their weight as the more lethal ones than the 100% er's for this reason. And why how much energy the bullet has left after exiting the animal has little to no bering on the wound it left.

I should point out that more burusing around a bullet hole dose not mean it was more lethal. What counts is how fast the blood pressure dropped and that is usualy faster with less tramaor brusingthan with more. The most DRT shots I have made were with slower velocity rounds that don't damage as much meat for table fare but the eat right to the hole.Thesewounds did cause extream internal and external bleeding. Thats why sharp broadheadswork better than dull ones do.

SwampCollie

Hydrostatic shock is bound by the law of deminishing returns. The effect a bullet and its "shock" can have on an animal depends entirely upon the energy the bullet creates, but more by the force of the resistance put on that bullet by the mass of the animal you are shooting.

Lets take your .22-250 example and your 40 gr bullet and shoot two targets with it. First, lets shoot a rabbit. A BIG rabbit will weigh about three pounds. A .22-250 with a 40gr bullet will be traveling about 4150 fps (depending on who you believe) and that gives it an energy of 1530 ft/#s. If you make that a ratio, between the energy of the bullet and mass/resistance of the animal, you'll get 510:1. If anyone hasnever shot or seen the result ofa rabbit, or other small game shotwith something like a .22-250, its about like a dump truck running over a cat... you end up with a bloody/furry sort of toupee. Now, use that same bullet on a big bodied whitetail deer in the mid-west. We will say that he is live weight 250#s. Now the ratio is down to 6.12:1. That is less than the ratio would be if you were to bean that same deer with a 90 mph fastball (assuming the baseball was the lightest allowable weight of 5oz... if it were the maximum of 5.25 oz... then the ration would be even larger). Surfacearea of course prevents the baseball from having the same effect as a bullet, but the shock wave or energy transfer to the body is the same.

Pavomesa

I'll say it again, my friends. A LOT ofanyeffect has to do with BULLET PERFORMANCE and the frame of mind of the animal in question....not just whatever numbers we want to toss around. There is a whole list of things that need to clickfor any of this work. We cannot answer this question with formulas. Probably all of us have witnessed glaring exceptions to both sides of the argument.

Doe Dumper

A good majority of my kills..prob 60% have came from treestands shooting at deer that are as relaxed as an open firearms season allows them to be. The 30-06 load in question was a slow one coming out of a short barrel...it was around nose 180 power point winchester whichalmost without fail put them on the ground where they stood. I had a lethal combo with that gun until someone stole the f'in thing. Im not telling you guys how they will do every time..Im just telling ya MY experiences. I had some bang flops with the 270...moreso than the 7-08 but not the amount that the slow heavy bullets got for me. Thats half the reason I have started wrking the 300 Savage in to my hunting as it seems to lay them low very quickly for me at a whopping 2450 fps. The deer I have been around when shot and have shot myself have almost always dropped faster when shot with a slower moving bullet. It might not be your exerpience..but it is mine. It may not be right but it is what works for me. They all kill so it really doesnt matter but sometimes you want to see the animal fall where its hit...unless we can make them run uphill


I see your point also RR as when they do hit the ground they try like hell to get back up but they just dont seem to make it to their feet. As far as the actual killing part the fast ones may very well do it...I got somewhat sidetracked on the drop time vs. kill time after the shot. My bad...

Pavomesa

RR, it sure wasn't going 3,500 fps at the 500 yd line. But at what velocity does a bullet start transmiting massive amounts of hydraulic shock? I dunno.[:-] And most likely at that range the deer was pretty relaxed or maybe even unaware the grim reaper was near. From what I've seen, you can knock a relaxed deer over with a fly swatter. They die easy. But put one in panic mode and it's a different story. Shucks, I've seen jackrabbits that were almost shot in half drag themselves 50 yards before dying. Adrenalin is a powerful medicine.

zrexpilot

Take a given bullet and push it faster, the faster you push it, the more damage it will do.
Fine examples will be
a .22lr and a 22-250
a .308 and a .300 UM
a .50 ML and a 50 BMG
But theres a lot of variables as to whats better. A 50 gr bullet at 3500fps is not better than a 180gr at 2700fps but a 180gr is better at 3500fps.
And then theres penetration, take a 180gr sp bullet , it will penetrate more at 2600fps then at 3500 fps.
Things start to blow up with anything above 2500 fps, anything above 3500 fps and weird stuff starts to happen

Doe Dumper

I believe that would be called femoral artery contact...or maybe voodoo?

SwampCollie

I've never had deer do anything but flop when I hit them in the right spot. Doesn't matter whether it was with a .17, 204, 7-08 or what. Bang, flop. I think bullet performance has almost little or nothing to do with it. As long as the bullet gets to where it was intended it has performed. I don't care about how much it expands or whatever. As long as it gets there, it performed. You asked about shock... you got an answer... sorry you didn't like it.