RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

I vaguely read through all the posts, mostly looking for indiscretions, violations and such which I found many of. Remember people, we are all in this together and being at odds is our biggest problem in the fight for our rights.

So forgive me if I sound redundant and someone made my point.

That being said, I think we need to take into consideration what we consider too light of an arrow. I shoot just over a 400 gr arrow. I don't consider this too light considering the speed I'm shooting it at and the KE I am generating. I will totally agree that a heavier arrow will out penetrate a lighter one under many circumstances however it highly depends on those circumstances and the differences do become marginal under most bowhunters ethical limitations in their personal max yardages.

When I took the National Bowhunter Educational course, I was told my arrow was too light and I had no business hunting with it. The course was taught by two traditional advocates. This was about 8 yrs ago. They asked if anyone knew their arrows weight. I raised my hand, and said yes, 378 grains. They looked at me as if I was the devil himself. I then went on to argue with them about KE, momentum, speed..etc...and at that time, I completely passed thru every animal I took with that bow....So what was so wrong with my setup?

I challenged them to a penetration contest which they wanted no part of....of course they knew I would win with my TOO light an arrow.

Keep in mind in all your aguments for your setups.......I don't believe ArthurP singled anyone out in his original post...and I to a point agree with him even tho I argued opposite his position in my endeavor above. A heavier arrow is a better option than a TOO light an arrow but what is considered TOO light an arrow...I believe it is too light when someone actually dismisses the possibility of adequate penetration just to have the flat trajectory as to simply hit the animal....I don't believe anyone here as that theory, but if you do, then you are unethical.

Before we do go on hashing this out....let's first define TOO Light....I'd bet most of you who disagree with AP wiil do a turn about...and AP might come down a peg....

Like would anyone here shoot a 250 grain arrow just to get 350fps...I doubt it but I bet somewhere it's been done and this as a hunting setup....questionable.

<font color=blue>Good Luck and Good Shooting</font id=blue>

<font color=red>Rob</font id=red>

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Carbon arrows penetrate better. I do['t know exactly why, but it IS true.

2 blade, cut on impact broadheads penetrate better. Fact

Heavy arrows pentrating better than light ? I haven't seen this to be true nor false, much depends on the arrow size and broadhead used. Heavier arrows will retain more energy downrange, thats a Fact.

Slow arrows suck ? Howard Hill and Fred Bear would beg to differ. I mean, how did American Indians kill game with such slow bows ?? Stupid comment bowshopper, uninformed and ignorant of the facts.

I am shooting a 500 grain Graphlex arrow this fall tipped with a 175 gr Zwickey Eskimo. I also have some Beaman ICS 500 shafts that weight 375 grains weighted that I can tip with the Zwickeys too. I like both setups equally well. I bet I don't get 160-170 fps , do ya like that blistering speed Bowshopper ??

Stealthycat's Photo's

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

My feelings on shoot flat to compensate for inadequate yardage judging skills:
There is no bow that shoots flat enough to make up for misjudged yardage. If someone is so deficient as to shoot at the same spot without regard for distance, I think they're going to miss, or worse, wound more game than they will kill cleanly. I feel if someone has that attitude they're going to take a shot without concern for distance. Is it beyond the range of their capabilities? It could well be. For some 25 yds is no big deal. Go to 35 yds and it's a different world. Small mistakes become big ones.
There is no replacement for knowing and practicing with your setup. I shoot one pin, but I know where to hold at ALL yardages from 5 to 40. I shoot fast bows, with what some consider light arrows (375 gr). But I work at judging yardage every time I shoot (almost daily). I don't feel safe in thinking I can &quot;be in the ball park&quot; by shooting a fast bow, without concerning myself with being &quot;on the money&quot; in judging yardage. There is no replacement for knowig the distance, and knowing where to hold AT THE KNOWN DISTANCE.
If you need a rangefinder, by all means use one. It's not a sin to admit you need one. It's a sin to shoot expecting your bow will make up for not knowing how far you're shot will be.
As I stated above I shoot one pin, fast bows. But I always concern myself with the yardage. That couple inch &quot;one way or the other&quot; can mean the difference between hitting both lungs, or just clipping one.
In a nutshell, I agree with Arthur in that shooting a fast bow to make up for not knowing the distance is wrong. Is it unethical? Just shooting the bow is not, shooting at a game animal that way is.

Phil.

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Bobco

I have seen guys walk into a pro shop and the only concern they have about a bow is HOW FAST is it they dont care if it feels like a joy buzzer or sounds like a shot gun just how fast it is.

Just last week I was at the pro shop for a couple of hours and on 3 seperate times guys walked in and the only question they asked was how fast is this bow how fast is that bow.
The guys in the shop tried to get these guys to shoot different bows to see what one felt the best to them but no all they wanted was a fast bow cause their buddy said you need a fast bow.
2 of the 3 guys walked out with a bow without shooting it.

Too many people worry about how fast a bow is instead of the shoot ability of they bow and their own capabilities.

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Ausie-guy,
Great story about the guys buying a bow an not shooting it!
And these are probably some of the guys making fun of my dinosaur Onieda shooting the unbelievably fast 208 fps.

Practice range estimation can be done on a football practice field using the yards lines to help visualize the target at x distance then practice stepping the distance off. I then move into an unmarked area for walking unknown distance shooting and then stepping off the distance.
Remember what is a 20 yard shot to me might or might not be a 20 yard to you but if we know what we believe that same distance is in regards to each other then we can communicate. I had an experiance that the guide I was hunting with was sure that the distance was x yards. I said no to me it is y and he got a little upset. Later I set up a target and ask him what the distance was and had already steped it off and written it down for me. We both were correct so that solved that issue and this was before the laser rangefinders were avaliable. Know your distances and trust yourself!



I hunt for myself and not anyone else so I take what I consider High Percentage shots and go from there. I try to share my experiences and reasoning for my decisions.



Greg

&quot;Getting close to the game is the joy of Bowhunting for me, the harvest is a bonus.&quot;

Live 15 ft Python after eating a small Antelope!

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Ausie, I guess my last post on this topic, was in response to the first sentence in you second last post.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Once again a topic has been changed from the original to a heavy v light arrow.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

I just wanted to state my opinion that the weight of the arrow does have some merit in this topic.

I agree with you that it is a shame that one of the biggest factors that many people (and unfortunately many beginners) look at as being the most important factor in buying a bow is speed. It is also a shame that companies advertise speed and promote it so much. But I guess that if that is what people want, that is where the R&D is going to be directed, and changes in designs are going to focus on getting that arrow to fly faster. I wish however that the companies don't forget about us &quot;silly&quot; guys who are looking for different things in a bow. I, for one prefer a longer Axle to Axle, with some decent sized limbs, but there are not many being made out there anymore. Now I know that there are a lot of good shooters here, so please don't take this the wrong way. But speed is hard to control, and I think that many would agree to that. And I know that there are many people that feel that they can control all of that speed, when really they can't. It's a shame that the beginner archer is fooled into believing all this hype to buy the fastest bow out there.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Too many people worry about how fast a bow is instead of the shoot ability of they bow and their own capabilities.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

I agree.

Edited by - BobCo19-65 on 09/16/2002 12:45:09

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

This topic will always lead to heavy verses light because those are determining factors with speed and yardage judging.There is no way to get around that fact.


What I would like to point out is if you choose to go with a fast bow is that when you go to buy arrows for it,the arrows that are in the right spine range for that bow are automatically heavier.This means that any advantage gained for trajectory has been diminished.The biggest gain will be in ke but the biggest disadvantage is the fast bow is a less forgiving bow by the way it is built.


I'm am not one that thinks speed is not accurate but if speed is shot from a bow that isn't forgiving it can be less than accurate in the wrong hands.

Stealthycat.You said that heavy retains more ke downrange.All things being equall that is a true statement but all things are rarely equall.A smaller diameter will retain more energy than a fat arrow.If a slow heavy arrow has 5&quot; helical fletching and a fast arrow has 3&quot; straight vanes then the lighter faster arrow is going to retain more of it's original ke.That is a fact.

I also agree that a 2 blader is going to penetrate better unless it is one of the thinner,lighter heads and it hits bone and the tip bends.If you havn't noticed already,I really hate general terms like faster is better or heavy is better.There are always many variables to a situation.




Bowfanatic,you said I should test 2 different bows and use a speed bow and a slower bow.I did this and came up with the exact same results as before.Now if you want to use a slow bow with a heavy arrow and a fast bow with a light arrow,then the difference might be a bit more but now we are comparing apples and oranges.


Here are the results of using fast bow with light arrows and a slow bow with heavy arrows.This is using the same draw length and poundage.


fast bow
359 gr @292fps
13 yards is 3.75 high and 30 yards is 3.75 low sighted in at 25 yards

slow bow
546 gr @ 231 fps
13 yards is 5&quot; high and 30 yards is 5&quot; low sighted in at 25 yards


There is an advantage when using just 1 pin but I think you would agree that it isn't as much as you would think.
When using multiple pins and gapping the advantages is almost non existant.


This all goes back to what Arthur is trying to get people to understand.There is no bandaid for misjudging yardage.If you are going to be the best hunter you can be and yes ethics comes into it,learn or atleast try to learn to judge yardage regardless of how fast you shoot.If you can't learn to judge then a rangefinder is a must or set markers around your stand.


I personally can judge yardage fairly well and would say that I am better than most and I will not go to my stand without a rangefinder.I don't like to use 1 pin but have seen some that were impressive using 1 pin.I prefer the gap method to holding high or low.Most can judge within 5 yards out to 30-35 yards.If you use the gap method you will have it covered to those distances.If you know a deer is between 22 and 28 and regardless of speed.If you put the 20 at the top of the kill and the 30 at the bottom of the kill.The deer is going to be supper.If under 20 then use your 20.I personally like to know exactly what the yardage is so I can center punch the lungs and walk over to my kill instead of tracking.Doesn't always turn out this way but does more often than not.Shots at 40 plus yards are not for the average shot and should be attempted by only those that are above average shooters and imo should have a slightly faster setup just for covering the distance faster.They should not be attempted,imo if you don't have the exact yardage to the animal by either marking the spot earlier or by a rangefinder.



I will dismount from my soap box now and read all the attacks to those that still don't want to believe that what they may think is a huge advantage may be a very slight if any advantage.It may actually be a disadvantage if you use it as an excuse to not have to judge yardage.


Good luck to all this season.:)

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

I'll start by saying it's pretty sad when anyone posts facts thru research and still has to worry about attacks by others who may think that they have to defend themselves because they choose what type of setup they choose!<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle> I consider this place an electronic campfire where we can discuss and debate anything to do with bowhunting. We should be able to do it without the insults. We all have our different setup beliefs and when somebody else posts something in contrary to our beliefs , we shouldn't take it personal.


TFOX

I've shot setups like you mentioned in your post and they were pretty close to your results. I have a buddy that uses the 1 pin setup and he's shooting 303 fps. Yes , he does have to hold 3&quot; low at most shots (15yds and under) , but his problem is guessing yardage past 20 yds and that is where his speed benefit comes in. He knows at 30yds he will hit exactly 1&quot; low , 20yds dead on. He's the one that doesn't have a problem guessing the close stuff and spray paints marks on trees at 30yds.
I hope I haven't come across as being a smart allick towards anyone. I see the point Arthur was trying to make , but I also knew how others were going to see it and with my first post , my intentions were to point that out to Arthur. I just think he could have worded it better!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

For the record<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> I shoot a 3pin setup with moderate speed and lots of wollop.

TFOX and Big Country

When you do your testing , try and zero in at different yardages and see the different results as to where you hit at 10yd - 30yds.
The reason I say this is , a couple years ago , I was shooting and sighting in at the farm where I hunt (this is when I was a speed freak) and I just walked off a distance that looked close to 20yds , but I never paced it. When all was done , I was shooting 1&quot; high at 10yds and 1&quot; low at 30yds at the range. I was shooting a 350gn arrow at 301fps. I'm not making this up and I'm not on drugs:) I think there must be a sweet spot when trying to sight in a fast one pin setup , try at differnt ranges and see if your zero is closer from 10 - 30 yds.
If not , I guess it could have been drug flashbacks from my youth<img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Stealthycat, I could care less about Howard Hill or Fred Bear, I am an Ishi fan.If you have any questions on Ishi or paleo/archaic artifacts, feel free to ask. I will even quote you prices on the artifacts. How's that for being ignorant, missinformed and opinionated? Did I attack anyone personally in my last thread? No I merely commented I did not care for slow arrows. I threw in the &quot;Quote this&quot; because I think it is funny how much people use it on this forum and no matter what I said I knew it was coming. Slow arrows do have one great advantage if you are a good archer you can use the trajectory to shoot over brush. But for most people that is probably an unethical shot too! If people are so worried about personal choice in equipment maybe they should legislate new restrictions on hunting equipment. The ones in my state are kinda scary. 40#minimum at full draw. You can use a device to hold at partial or full draw. Projectile points cannot be poisoned, drugged or explosive. Broadheads must have two cutting surfaces and be at least 7/8 inch on impact, mechs are the same specs and must open on impact. Nothing about arrow weight, kinetic energy needed for mech's or ethics. I notice the one controlling factor no one ever mentions is animal movement. Say I have a rangefinder, I look at it and the deer is 30 yards. By the time I put my rangefinder down and draw, the animal has moved towards me. What then? Do I let off and look through the rangefinder again? Or do I take the shot if it is a high percentage shot? If I am guessing is that unethical?

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Say I have a rangefinder, I look at it and the deer is 30 yards. By the time I put my rangefinder down and draw, the animal has moved towards me. What then? Do I let off and look through the rangefinder again? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

No, first you move your single pin adjustable sight to the yardage you think he might stop, then you range find again. Then if it hasn't stopped moving, you'll have to stop him with a grunt. Then, be real careful using the rangefinder and re-adjusting the sight, because it's probably looking at you. Then, after it bolts, alerting every other animal within a mile, start cussing about how you should have bought that scent lok suit they only wanted $450 for. The art of hunting sure is fun.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Bowshopper - &quot; No I merely commented I did not care for slow arrows&quot;

No, you said slow arrows suck, I think theres a difference there.

Thats great you're into the artifacts and such. I was privilaged enough to visit a private piece of land spanning the Rio Grande south of Albuquerque a few years back, both sides had large hills and were covered in pottery shards up to the size of the palm of your hand. Also, one of the hills on the east side had huge boulders that were covered in petroglyphs (sp?). I was VERY impressed, took lots of pictures etc etc. But anyway, you say slow bows suck but at the same time you also fully know how lethal they are - maybe I just read the words differently then. Much of what you said I fully agree with. You ever shot longbows/recurves much ??
Stealthycat's Photo's

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

OK, I am back with some limited info on the fast vs. slow debate. I did not have as much time to test as I would have liked, but it seems that every time I go to our archery club people start lining up with their bow problems!
Anyhow, here is what I have so far.

Test # 1,2, and 3 were all done with a Hoyt UltraTec, excel one cam, 65lb. draw weight, 325gr. arrow traveling 294fps.
@20yd.= dead on
@30yd.=3 1/4&quot; low using 20yd. pin
@40yd.= 13 1/4&quot; low using 20yd. pin

Test # 2
@ 30yd.= dead on
@ 35yd.= 4 3/4&quot; low usung 30yd. pin

Test # 3
40yd. = dead on
45yd. = 5 3/8&quot; low using 40yd. pin

Test # 4,5, and 6 were all done with a Mathews Q2 @ 67lb. draw, 417gr. arrow traveling 252fps.

Test # 4
@ 20yd. = dead on
@ 30yd. = 5 1/4&quot; low using 20yd. pin

Test # 5
@ 30yd. = dead on
@ 35yd. = 5&quot; low using 30yd. pin

Test # 6
@ 40yd. = dead on
@ 45yd. = 6 1/4&quot; low using 40yd. pin

Test # 7,8, and 9 were all done with a Mathews MQ1 @ 63lb. draw, 483gr. arrow traveling @ 239fps.

Test # 7
@ 20yd. = dead on
@ 30yd. = 7' low using 20yd. pin

Test # 8
@ 30yd. = dead on
@ 35yd. = 6 3/8&quot; low using 30yd. pin

Test # 9
@ 40yd. = dead on
@ 45yd. = 8 1/2&quot; low using 40yd. pin

NOTE: All groups were shot in 3 shot volleys. Any suspect shots, were reshot.

The next test will be to find the optimum yardage to sight these bows in so that we can see how they perform best with one pin out to 30 yards.

Also, while there is an obvious difference in arrow drop between the fastest rig, and the slowest, I feel this shows that faster speeds can definately help you if a yardage error occurs, BUT NOT BY MUCH!

Take note of the 294fps bow, and the 252fps bow. These numbers even surprised me. Very little difference in drop. I even repeated this test twice to make sure.

If anyone has any specific test in mind, let me know. And remember, I shoot my hunting rigs at 280-285fps, so I am not chanting that SLOW is definately best, I just feel that for most hunting situations, fast is overrated!

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Bowshopper, I'm sure your last remarks are tounge in cheek. But what is estimating range? It's guessing how far away something is. Some people are good at it, some are not. I think the intent of this thread is to illustrate the fact that some people may use a fast bow as a crutch, to overcome poor range judging skills. Some may use it as a substitute, not giving a thought for distance. That's where I see the problem. See the deer, shoot the deer. It was over there, about that far.
I'm sure that after the deer at 30 yds moved towards you, you realized it was now under 30 yds.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Phil.

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

I have to comment on this rangefinder stuff.NO ONE says to range a deer when it comes in.This task should be done well before hand.It isn't like you don't have time while your setting there waiting.By the time I get out of a stand I can tell you what every tree in a 30 yard range is.If I'm on a field I can tell you what every clump of grass or piece of paper is from my stand out to 50 yards.They can actually help pass the time of day.Another thing they do is acclamate your senses to the surroundings and you can actually guess the yardages that you havn't even scanned with the rangefinder.


This is really silly to be having to add this but some obviously have a hard time understanding the concept.


Big Country,good test.Seems to be showing that there is going to be rise and fall with any setup regardless of speed.There will be a difference but even at 45 yards there is a small difference.Less than 1&quot; with the first 2 and there poundage plays a big role.The 3rd was using a heavier arrow and a lighter poundage.It was less than 3&quot; lower than the absolute fastest bow.Match the poundage of the last bow and the results get even closer.The reason I say that is because most of the people out there only have 1 bow and try to get speed with a lighter arrow and it really doesn't help trajectory that much when you do that.

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>



Big Country,good test.Seems to be showing that there is going to be rise and fall with any setup regardless of speed.There will be a difference but even at 45 yards there is a small difference.Less than 1&quot; with the first 2 and there poundage plays a big role.The 3rd was using a heavier arrow and a lighter poundage.It was less than 3&quot; lower than the absolute fastest bow.Match the poundage of the last bow and the results get even closer.The reason I say that is because most of the people out there only have 1 bow and try to get speed with a lighter arrow and it really doesn't help trajectory that much when you do that.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Yes, Big Country's tests do bring reality to light. Faster doesn't get you much and losing the weight of the arrow is the consequence.
Remember, it's Feet Per Second and rarely is an arrow in flight for a full second....but a fraction of that....a couple fps or even several fps is all but nullified.

<font color=blue>Good Luck and Good Shooting</font id=blue>

<font color=red>Rob</font id=red>

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Would the results of the test be the same if the bows are shot from an elevated position? Even if the arrow drop is minimal in difference wouldn't the extra milisecond of speed the faster arrow gives you be an advantage since animals can cover alot of distance in a milisecond? If you can see your arrow fly why would you think an animal would not see it? I've shot self bows since 1962. I've had plenty of deer jump arrows before impact and spin out of the way before impact. Why? Because they could see my arrow! Last year I watched one of my friends try to shoot a doe with an old Bear Hunter 41&quot; round wheeled dinosaur from 20 yards. That doe gave him three broadsides and dodged all three arrows. Is he a poor shot or judge in distance? Well he has 8 P&Y and two bobcats he took with the same bow so I don't think so. Am I talking with my tongue in cheek? you bet! I still have to wait two weeks before my bowseason starts! Hey I'll be the first in line when Bowtech comes out with a 400fps bow!

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Man, this thing is still going on??

&quot;Extra speed will make up for misjudged yardage.&quot;
Not necessarily. You have got to be reasonably close to the correct yardage for the speed and arrow weight to save your rear end. You can't look at your target, think it's thirty yards and make a succesful shot if it is really 40 yards. It's only common sense to realize you would have to be with in a yard or so on your guesstimation.
I chose &quot;light&quot; carbon arrows (415gr w/broadhead) because that is what I happened to use and they work well. I have no clue what speed my bow shoots. It's IBO rated at 298, but I know it's no where near that. I'd like to know what it shoots, just out of curiosity, but it's not like it would be a life changing revelation for me.

&quot;Once again a topic has been changed from the original to a heavy v light arrow.&quot;
Ausie-guy, isn't always the case around here, lol.

&quot;For those of you that they say have a single pin set at 20 or 25 yds and can hit dead on at 0 to 30 I say BULL&quot;
Hmmmm, 0 yards, dang you are a good stalker, lol. I think the closest I have ever been able to get was maybe 8-10 yards. Not a heck of a alot of difference in impact point vs. aiming point. Further out, there's going to be a difference, how much depends on various factors. I always hit within 2-3 inches of where I am aiming. Maybe I move the pin position in relation to the target without even realizing it, but thats the way mine seems to work. Heck, maybe I am better at guessing range than I thought. Of course, you gotta take my word for it, seeing as how none of you have seen me shoot. I take y'alls word on your prowess, sight unseen... Maybe I am to trusting.....

&quot;There was a thread not so long ago about a target at 3 yrds you guys go out at put your pin dead on and see what happens.&quot;
Geez, at 3 yards you can shoot the dang thing instinctivly, forget about a pin.

&quot;When I got my current bow I got it because of the way it felt in my hands the speed side of it was a bonus I dont look at IBO or AMO ratings when I buy a bow I go on the feel of it.&quot;
Same here. That and the price. Would I like to have one of those fast and expensive Matthews Legacys? Sure, know of anyone wanting to get rid of one for less than $300? LOL






Those who wish to appear wise among fools, among the wise seem foolish.
Marcus Fabius Quintilianus (35 AD - 100 AD)

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Bowshopper, I don't think your friend was missing that doe because she <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>could see my arrow <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> or his arrow. I wasn't there so I can't say for sure and there is no way to prove it, but I would bet that she was hearing his bow. When deer &quot;dodge arrows&quot; they don't see there is an arrow coming at them and use super powers to see and dodge it like in the movie The Matrix. They are hearing a sound and reacting to it. Their natural reaction is to drop into their springing position for escape and that is when the arrow soars over their back. Sound travels at over 1000 fps and the fastest bows (even that 400 fps) bow don't even come close. To say you want a fast bow to keep a deer from dodging is your choice. Me, I'll take the quiet bow any day.

I went and checked the KE of the arrows in Big Country's test and they were all within 3 ft.lb.s of each other and would be closer if you bumped up the draw weight of the slowest bow. I do find it interesting that the discrepancies between the different speeds and their trajectories are so little. I don't shoot a light arrow for speed, I shoot one because I only have a 28' draw length and prefer the strength of carbon for my set up. I am planning on getting some weight tubes and seeing what difference if any they would make on my current sights.

As far as speed selling me a bow, I gave up on that years ago because of my short draw length and the corresponding noise. Now if you could get a bow producing 400+ fps, that was whisper quiet, and still shot a 450 grain arrow, then I'd be interested. But then again, who wouldn't?
<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Edited by - huntingbry on 09/17/2002 10:34:32

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

On that note, the speed of sound travels much faster than todays bows. Until bows take the lead, an alert deer will always have the edge.

If you are shooting a loud bow, do what you can to make it as quiet as possible. Then, if you want to minimize the potential of a deer &quot;jumping the string&quot;, only take shots at relaxed deer.

If a deer is alert and looking around for what is making it nervous, it's muscles are tensed and it's prepared to easily bound away. If it's relaxed, jumping the string is rarely a problem.

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Big Country, thanks for having enough skepticism to do that testing, and for taking the time to do it.

This entire thread is a spinoff of Rangeball's 'arrow weight revelation' thread on the tech forum. Some of you have said how sick you are of my 'fixation' on heavy arrows, so you know I've been trying to tell people for months that going for allout speed doesn't do as much good as legend tells. Someone mentioned new shooters being turned away by thinking they have to know the exact yardage. Well, naturally, I've got a different point of view on that.

Quite frankly, I've seen more people give up on bowhunting in total frustration because they tried to start out with the fastest rigs they could put together. A few of them have listened to me and moderated their setups, shooting slower arrows and are now doing quite well. Most have it in their head that if they can't shoot at least 270 fps, then they they don't have a chance to kill a deer. That is the worst thing about this speed business. Newcomers tend to believe what someone more experienced in bowhunting says, especially someone that works in an archery store (notice I said archery store instead of a pro shop), without digging around and experimenting themselves, or at least trying to get other viewpoints, to find out if it's true or not.

Speed is good. All through the history of archery, people have done everything possible to increase arrow speed. Problem is, speed comes with a price, in accuracy and control. Someone that is a highly skilled shooter can make use of a lot of speed. A novice shooter can not. Nor do they even need to. As Big Country's tests show, they can be successful hunters with moderate setups that are easily controlled and they can shoot accurately.

This thread has turned nasty in spots, and I would be lying if I said I didn't expect it. But at least some people have finally started thinking about what I've been saying all along.

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Big Country, I suspect that when you adjust the pin setting for each arrow weight to get the best kill zone out to 30 yards, the margins would be much lower.

Also, any chance you can do these with the same bow, just different arrow weights? That would be very enlightening info I believe.

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Quite frankly, I've seen more people give up on bowhunting in total frustration because they tried to start out with the fastest rigs they could put together. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Well you know what. If anyone is so pathetic that they quit bowhunting because they got a little frustrated well then they aren't much of a hunter in the first place and the sport certainly isn't losing much. Now contrarily I have seen people decide to quit bowhunting because their slow pathetic equipment wouldn't make up for their lack of experience in judging distance(no one starts out perfect) and they wound up wounding deer so they gave up. But not just because they were #$@#!~ and got a little frustrated so they quit. However, in this case I can see that happening.<img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle> After all you know what they say if you can't beat them, quit?????????????

Protect your hunting rights, &quot;Spay or neuter a liberal.&quot;

Edited by - silentassassin on 09/17/2002 13:37:19

Edited by - Rob/PA Bowyer on 09/17/2002 14:46:17

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Great thread. As you can tell by my handle I'm not much of a &quot;speed&quot; shooter but I'd like to add my two cents. I owned a bow shop a few years back and decided that if I was going to sell compounds then I needed to shoot them enough to know something about them. Since I only shoot to prepare for hunting all of my set-ups were based on hunting. I hunted two seasons with a compound & sights in 4 states and had 6 shots at deer and killed 6 deer. Those bows were no where near the accuracy of the bows I see people shooting today. You IBO type guys are shooting incredible accurate and fast bows and even with your under 400gr. arrows you have all you need for whitetails.

I believe you should know how far your shooting if your going to use that type of equipment and never allow your equipment try and make up for your personal shortcomings in judgement. I use 75 to 80# longbows and recurves with 750 to 800gr. arrows for all of my hunting. As somebody early in this thread said, your arrow can only go through an animal once and that's what mine do. Use what your accurate with and &quot;know&quot; your deadly with. I'd rather see speed than all of the post I saw here and on another thread last season about all of the wounded deer. Hit them right and kill them. (If something goes wrong...DON&quot;T POST IT!!)

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

What's pathetic is people with more mouth than brains. Someone that claims to be a shooter for a 'major manufacturer' but never bothers to respond with helpful advice when someone asks a question dealing with a problem with that manufacturer's products. Someone that derides someone else's point of view without ever making a valid counterpoint.

THAT is what's pathetic, silentassassin. I don't doubt you've seen people quit archery, but I do seriously doubt you've ever lifted a finger to help them out.

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Well you know what. If anyone is so pathetic that they quit bowhunting because they got a little frustrated well then they aren't much of a hunter in the first place and the sport certainly isn't losing much.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Geez, I never thought of it that way. Just the other day, a friend of mine's nephew (14 yrs old) was real depressed with his shooting. He hadn't hunted deer yet with a bow and was talking about giving it up and just using a gun. I spent a few minutes looking at his set-up and realized that his centershot and nock were so far off, he didn't have a chance to shoot consistantly. After a few adjustment and about 10 minutes, he was shooting pretty good.

If I had only realized that he was nothing but a pathetic little twerp, I would have just told him he'd never amount to much of a hunter and he should definitely give up shooting a bow. Well, when the next frustrated shooter comes along, I'll know what to say.

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Quote&quot; I wasn't there so I can't say for sure&quot;. Not all deer drop to the ground, guess you've never encountered a spinner. Deer on the fringes of suburban areas are less prone to jumping a bow from the sound. Hey beleive what you want, shoot what you want, it is America! Yes the deer I hunt have seen the Matrix, I saw them peeking through the window! If anyone beleives the one pin theory I would hope after one or two bad shots they have enough brains to figure it out.

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Hey Arthur,I would imagine the people that silentassin has encountered quit because of him.They probably figured everyone in this sport is as arrogant as he is and wanted no part of it.


I like my faster setup but I am comfortable with it.When I setup the newbie I will usually put them in the 240-250 range but will try to do it with carbon,especially those on the shorter draw side.

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Rangeball, yes I can do more tests with just one bow. I will do them this weekend. The reason I used different bows the first time is twofold. One, I did not have time during the first test to reset and tune the bow for the different arrows. And I did not want to cheat by using an untuned setup. And secondly, I may be wrong here, but my theory is that an arrow has no clue what got it moving, if it is the right spine, and the bow is tuned, all that matters is how fast it is going. What I am trying to say is that if I set up a Mathews, and a Hoyt to shoot the same arrow at the exact same speed, the arrow will follow the same path downrange.

ArturP, I pretty much knew what my results would be before I did my little test. I went through that speed is the answer to all of my troubles phase about 15 years ago. Luckily, it did not take me very long to realize that it is`nt. Don`t get me wrong, I still like to get from point A to point B without wasting any time, but I want it to be very drivable getting there.

Bowshopper, I`ll try to address your question concerning shooting from an elevated position. Without having done any actual testing, my answer is yes, shooting a VERY slow bow from a treestand will cause it to hit higher than it would from the ground. I recall practicing from my treestands when bows only shot 180-210fps and at 20yds. I would have to hold low with my 20yd. pin. With the speeds I shoot today, that is not nessessary.(and yes Frank, I was bending at the waist!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>)My question to you is this, why in the world would your buddy shoot at a deer that was looking at him?

More tests to follow!

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

[Deleted]
 

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RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Why do some people have a problem with using one pin? What's the problem with knowing the distance (good range estimation) and holding appropriately? If you practice both, how is it so different from instinctive shooting? Personally I don't like all those pins in my way, too cluttered in the pin guard for me. If you keep it reasonable, here in Ohio 25 to 30 yds max, one pin is plenty.
I know that was a little off topic, but it was brought up a couple of times.

Phil.

Edited by - pdq 5oh on 09/17/2002 20:44:29

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RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

I can shoot muzzys out of my bow (337 f.p.s. thank you) but only on small game because I try harder on the big guys.

I prefer mechanicals because there are more pluses than negitives and I owe that to the game.

My personal distance limit is 42 yards because that is the point where my arrow begins to drop , which is why I shoot for speed.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>


I'm not doubting the validity of your statement, in fact I'm more curious than anything but it'd be nice to know your setup.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

fast equipment makes for less lost game because persons arent taking the same chance that we have ALL taken before...whether we admit it to ourselves or others or not!.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

I agree to point, as long as the quest for speed doesn't discount common sense for extremely light equipment......

The faster you can get a heavier arrow to travel, you better off you are. A spindly light arrow shouldn't be the answer for the quest for speed.

Mostly I agree with what you said, however I'm just clearing up a point so newbies don't think they can shoot a 250 grain arrow at animals just cause they have blazing speed.


<font color=blue>Good Luck and Good Shooting</font id=blue>

<font color=red>Rob</font id=red>

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Just because he is a friend doesn't mean I can read his mind or make excuses for his actions. Taking shots when they are looking at you is pushing the limit. Is it ethical? Not my call to make. This doe has very distinct markings (four white stockings) and a reputation for being arrow wise. She is alive and well with twins, waiting for the next sucker archer that passes by...

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Whackmaster,I never said that my test were field test.I have a program that shows the flight path of an arrow out of a given bow at a given weight at a given speed.It takes fletching and arrow sizes into account also.

Yes,I have done field test with my own equipment and everytime the program is dead on.I am a pretty good shot but a 1/4&quot; at 40 yards is pushing it.This program will also make sight tapes for my scope and I have personally shot them out to 83 yards and the marks are dead on so the arrow flight chart would have to be pretty darn close.


Krisken,either you have skipped over a lot in this thread or totally disregard and don't beleive any of the information.That is your choice but I have to explain that an arrow starts dropping as soon as it leaves a bow,regardless of speed.This is what the pins are for.They compinsate for the drop.Your bow does not start dropping at 42 yards.It starts at the bow and will gradually but evenly drop more as it flies(as long as it is tuned properly).For instance,my bow will drop .5 inches per yard at 20 yards and at 60 will drop 1.7 inches per yard.Yours will be much less than that.(I did check to see what a 356 gr arrow would do and it is this.20 yards is .3 inches per yard and at 60 it is 1.1 inches per yard).But when you figure in rise and fall,the point of impact is very close with a fast setup or a slower setup.Unless you are going to complete extremes.Like 200 compaired to 300.I have tried to show that a person will have a given speed range at a given poundage and that range is not going to show a big difference in arrow trajectory.


I checked the trajectory of an arrow at 356 gr and 338 fps.

Sighted in at 25 yards it is 2.25&quot; high at 13 yards and 2.25&quot; low at 30 yards.

This may not be exact with your bow and setup but is going to be close.

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Straightarrow,
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Geez, I never thought of it that way. Just the other day, a friend of mine's nephew (14 yrs old) was real depressed with his shooting. He hadn't hunted deer yet with a bow and was talking about giving it up and just using a gun. I spent a few minutes looking at his set-up and realized that his centershot and nock were so far off, he didn't have a chance to shoot consistantly. After a few adjustment and about 10 minutes, he was shooting pretty good.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Please read the following paragraph.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Quite frankly, I've seen more people give up on bowhunting in total frustration because they tried to start out with the fastest rigs they could put together. A few of them have listened to me and moderated their setups, shooting slower arrows and are now doing quite well. Most have it in their head that if they can't shoot at least 270 fps, then they they don't have a chance to kill a deer<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

This would have led me to believe that we were referring to adults rather than children. I don't know many children that are pulling enough weight to shoot 270fps or that have the strength to even pull any &quot;fast rigs&quot; by todays standards. So obviously your nephew was not who that statement was directed at. Nor, do I believe it was the audience that arthur was reffering to.

TFOX,

<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>That's pretty funny coming from you!!!!

Athur,

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Someone that claims to be a shooter for a 'major manufacturer' but never bothers to respond with helpful advice when someone asks a question dealing with a problem with that manufacturer's products. Someone that derides someone else's point of view without ever making a valid counterpoint. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Ok, I know that you are guilty of the second one but who is the first person that you are referring to???????

Protect your hunting rights, &quot;Spay or neuter a liberal.&quot;

Edited by - silentassassin on 09/18/2002 11:39:24

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

&quot; I prefer mechanicals because there are more pluses than negitives and I owe that to the game. &quot;

I'll challenge that - what pluses come from mechanicals over fixed blades ? And please don't give me the wind planing excuse - very few of us ever shoot in winds high enough to make a difference.
Stealthycat's Photo's

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Silentassassin, what would the difference be between helping a beginner archer whether they are young or old?

Edited by - BobCo19-65 on 09/18/2002 11:49:39

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Silentassassin, what would the difference be between helping a beginner archer whether they are young or old? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

How high is up?

I suppose you'll need to ask someone that has made reference to that issue. Since I have not, I will let someone that has answer your question.

Protect your hunting rights, &quot;Spay or neuter a liberal.&quot;

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>My personal distance limit is 42 yards because that is the point where my arrow begins to drop, which is why I shoot for speed. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I hope the feds don`t see your post then, for they will surely confiscate your bow to put into the Smithsonian Institute!
It is, to my knowledge, the only bow in the world that defies the laws of physics, and gravity!<img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I can shoot muzzys out of my bow(337f.p.s thank you)but only on small game because I try harder on the big guys. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
WHAT! Never mind, I don`t want to know!

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I prefer mechanicals because there are more pluses than negatives, and I owe that to the game. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
OK, I`ll bite. I have no problem with the use of mechanicals(good ones)but please explain just what benefits or pluses they possess that make them superior to a good fixed blade?


Whackmaster, I went back and carefully reread my posts, and those from TFOX, and I don`t think they sounded that way. If mine sound to you like I am saying you should be a world class shooter to bowhunt, I apologize. I sure did`nt mean it like that. My tests results were achieved by shooting groups of arrows at each distance, then finding the average for that group. All of my groups were NOT within .5 inches. I did destroy 4 arrows in the process though!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>...but I have to explain that an arrow starts dropping as soon as it leaves a bow,regardless of speed.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Ummm, I thought that slow motion film showed that an arrow actually rises as soon as it leaves the bow, and then begins &quot;falling&quot; downrange? If this is true, then wouldn't some extra speed increase the distance downrange before the arrow started &quot;falling&quot;?

Doesn't really matter to me, I just know what my setup does downrange. Why it does it, who the heck knows, but it does work.

Those who wish to appear wise among fools, among the wise seem foolish.
Marcus Fabius Quintilianus (35 AD - 100 AD)