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silentassassin

09-13-2002 02:58 PM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I hear and read this stuff over and over and over again dealing with speed and misjudged yardage and I really hate it. It's the number one reason most people say they shoot the light arrows... Extra speed will make up for misjudged yardage. Every time I hear that, I cringe. I smell the pungent stench of poor hunting ethics. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

You can't be trying very hard when you start a thread off by basically calling a major portion of the bowhunters out there(including myself) slobs for shooting light arrows that help with mistakes made during yardage estimation.<img src=icon_smile_clown.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_clown.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_clown.gif border=0 align=middle>

Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal."

Arthur P

09-13-2002 03:06 PM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

I wrote it, I meant it and I stand by it. Now, if you'd care to read the post in it's entirety and not take things out of context, maybe you'd understand what I actually said.

wolfen68

09-13-2002 03:17 PM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

silentassassin....I AM YOUR IDOL, ADMIT IT, I HAVE MORE BOOK BUCKS ON MY WALL THAN YOU COULD EVER HOPE TO. ALL THE WHILE CHANTING..."WOLFEN68 IS THE BEST, WOLFEN68 IS THE BEST...!!!" BAWAHAHAHAH<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

**Edited for content

Edited by - PABowhntr on 09/16/2002 10:06:58

Big Country

09-13-2002 10:29 PM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

I am almost afraid to jump into this one!<img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle> I don`t need one of those right before the season starts.
First, I think I know what ArthurP is trying to get across here, and I agree with him.
As with many of us on this board, I have been hunting with archery gear since before the compound was invented. So I have heard it said countless times by people who are less than knowledgable on the subject, or who are just plain old BS`ers that their one pin can hit out to 30 yards and beyond without holding higher, thus making a faster bow the way to go for hunting.
Until two years ago, I averaged shooting at least one hundred arrows a day, every day of the year. I add that little tidbit of information to hopefully lend some credence to my next statement.
If your bow is shooting Easton ACE`s at 315fps and you are sighted in dead on at 20 yds., if you hold your 20yd. pin dead on at 30yds., you WILL hit roughly 3 inchs low. Slow your bow down to the 285-290 range, now you will hit roughly 4" low.
So, all the speed in the world cannot make up for gross misjudgements in yardage.
High speed can help on a yardage miss of a couple yards at close range, at 50yds, if you misjudge by 3yds., you got trouble.
If you are 10 yards off at 50 yds., you just completely missed the intended target.(which is much better than the alternative on live game!)
I am not saying that speed is a bad thing, I shoot my hunting rigs at around 285fps.
Several people have stated that we should practice yardage judging much more than most of us do. I agree completely.
Bowfanatic states that some people just plain suck at it. He is 100% right.
I have shot in 3-d tournaments on a local and national level for many years, and have enjoyed some success from time to time. But even with me shooting all those 3-d`s, I still don`t trust myself to judge yardage in the timber, with shadows and other things to mess me up. Before laser rangefinders I would step off yardage to different reference points around my stand. Now I simply zap them with my rangefinder.
I am NOT implying that everyone should use a rangefinder, some people are much better than me at judging distance. Everyone should be honest with themselves on whether they need to do something besides just looking and judging.
Everyone should also be honest about their limitations of how far they should shoot, too! I can put 3 arrow volleys inside of a softball size circle at 50yds. on my worst day. Much tighter on average, but I would be hard pressed to take a shot over 30yds. I actually can`t remember the last time I took one over 26 yds.
But again, that is me, many of you may feel extremely confident shooting further.

Stealthy, I agree that when mech. heads first came out, the vast majority of people using them were simply looking for a bandaid for poor bow tuning.
While I don`t use them myself, I do check out the new ones, and I believe that alot of guys use them responsibly, out of well tuned rigs nowadays!

silentassassin, I am pretty much of an old fashioned guy, I`m not into most of this newfangled stuff. However, I really think we should look into some of those anger management classes.<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

445 supermag

09-14-2002 04:35 AM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

I'll take em fast and flat everytime. If I am off by 5 yards say at 35 yards I will still get a nice kill shot even if it was 40 yards. I am not making an excuse but mistakes happen and a faster setup allows me that small error and that just suits me fine.

Brian

Silens_Venator

09-14-2002 04:49 AM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

Well, if not being able to judge yardage to within a yard or so, shooting fast bows, light arrows, and one pin to 30 yards makes me an unethical hunter....so be it. I've been called a lot worse by a lot better,lol. No skin off my nose. I'm happy, my belly is full of a nice venison roast, I have meat in the freezer, and didn't do anything illegal to get it there.... I think I done did good<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Those who wish to appear wise among fools, among the wise seem foolish.
Marcus Fabius Quintilianus (35 AD - 100 AD)

Straightarrow

09-14-2002 08:25 AM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Everyone should also be honest about their limitations of how far they should shoot, too! I can put 3 arrow volleys inside of a softball size circle at 50yds. on my worst day. Much tighter on average, but I would be hard pressed to take a shot over 30yds. I actually can`t remember the last time I took one over 26 yds. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Big Country - nice post!

I think by the sounds of it, you're a better shot than I am. I've had a couple hundred shot opportunities, and so far the longest I've taken has been about 23 yards. I can imagine being tempted into a longer shot, but so far this is the furthest that I've taken. I think it's because of a combination of preferring close shots, where I know it's a dead deer and always thinking I can get a deer a little closer if it's still too far out. I also tend to hunt very thick cover, where longer shots just don't exist. My average shot has probably been 7-10 yards. How much practice and distance judging do you need for those? Not much, but I do it anyway.

Slo-bo, we're not alone. There are lots of guys shooting one pin using the same technique we do. It's very effective. In my opinion, most would be better off having to make no pin decisions under the pressure of a hunting shot. A lot of guys who do not use sights, use a gap method of aiming. They put a certain distance between the tip of the arrow and the target, depending upon distance. Using one pin is very similar, except the pin is easier to see and the gap is much smaller.

Arthur P

09-14-2002 08:51 AM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

And I've been called worse than a fool by a lot better than you. So far, I've been called silly, foolish, anti-hunting, PETA and various other names even less kind that haven't come out on the screen, I'm sure. All because I've asked for less emphasis to be put on the misjudged yardage aspect of shooting speed.<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

Once more.... Talking about covering your butt in case of accidently misjudging yardage by a couple of yards is one thing. Saying you shoot light and fast because you can't judge yardage... THAT is what I'm talking about being unethical.

Stealth_Force had the best comment of all about it when he said:

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>FACT, Speed DOES make up for missed yardage.....as long as your somewhat close to start with. IF you can shoot a fast bow accurately,your yardage judging becomes LESS critical. NOT UN-critical, but still....LESS critical. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Less critical, certainly, but within 30 yards where most bowhunting shots are taken, not to any great degree. Further shots, 30-40 yards, precise estimation gets even more critical. Further than that, 40-60 yards, you've got to be right on the money with either a 300 fps arrow or a 150 fps arrow. Factor in the 'archers minute of angle accuracy' of 1" per every 10 yards, there is no margin of error on the long stuff.

Deleted User

09-14-2002 10:22 AM

[Deleted]

[Deleted by Admins]

Straightarrow

09-14-2002 10:51 AM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Less critical, certainly, but within 30 yards where most bowhunting shots are taken, not to any great degree. Further shots, 30-40 yards, precise estimation gets even more critical. Further than that, 40-60 yards, you've got to be right on the money with either a 300 fps arrow or a 150 fps arrow. Factor in the 'archers minute of angle accuracy' of 1" per every 10 yards, there is no margin of error on the long stuff.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I think this is the most important statement made on this thread. Close range shots are not affected greatly by speed. The further out you are, the greater the importance of exact range estimation. If you do know the exact range, then speed is relatively unimportant, althought the ability to shoot very small groups at that range is.

The biggest reason I like a little extra speed over the slower set-ups, is to reduce the reaction time on a deer that "jumps the string". I know that's a whole other discussion that we don't need to get into on this one. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Stealth_Force

09-14-2002 12:13 PM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

NOT to change the topic...just replying to a question stealthycat had.
Yes, NORMALLY bigger diameter means LESS penetration. However, SOME tests have shown SOME mech heads CAN cut a bigger hole AND penetrate better than some fixed blades. That is 1 reason SOME MIGHT choose a mech head.
even with FIELD points, and a 350 grain arrow going at 300 Fps, in a 10 mph cross wind, at 30 yards, you will be off by 3.2"!!! 30mph (who'd shoot in that...I know you were kidding, but....)you'd be off by 9.5"!!!
This is WITHOUT broadheads!!! Add a big fixed blade, and you can see the problems you COULD face

Charlie P

09-15-2002 07:31 AM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

Stealthy You stated <BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Do you agree that people for the most part use mechanical broadheads because fixed blade heads don't fly well in their untuned bows ?? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

No I don't agree with that! I can only comment on the people I know and myself when I shot mechs.Our bows are/were tuned to perfection.

You know very well even shooting mechs your bow needs to be tuned,don't you?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Compound hunting is a lot like that after hunting with a longbow/recurve. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>I thought you had said that your skills with traditional equipment haven't allowed you to hunt with one yet.

stealthycat

09-15-2002 08:43 AM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

Charlie P - This is my first season with a longbow, a whole new ballgame and then some.

I still disagree with the general statments made on mechanicals. I believe that the majority of bowhunters couldn't shoot bullet hole paper with their setups. A good number probably have the wrong spined arrows. Its facts guys, that many if not most bowhunters don't play around and tinker with their equipment. Too expensive, too time consuming, aint got the tools etc etc.

A compound has the ability to shoot a pretty good spine range of arrows with big fletch/feathers and mech heads. I bet if people were honest in a poll here, few have paper tuned their setups. Without that, you can bet that without a whole lot of luck their arrows aren't flying as well as they could be. I have seen quite a few threads on broadheads hitting high and to the right or not flying like field points causing problems - folks thats a bow/arow not being tuned, NOT a broadhead problem. Quick fix ? Mechanical heads, am I not right ?
Stealthycat's Photo's

Charlie P

09-15-2002 09:34 AM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Charlie P - This is my first season with a longbow, a whole new ballgame and then some. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

So have you shot at a game animal,with your longbow/recurve?

I'll be honest you remind me of a guy who just quit smoking and wants to tell everyone what it's all about.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I still disagree with the general statments made on mechanicals. I believe that the majority of bowhunters couldn't shoot bullet hole paper with their setups. A good number probably have the wrong spined arrows. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

What general statements do you disagree with?

I haven't paper tuned my bow in along time,so what?Why? When I practice with my broadheads (85 grain Thunderheads) if I'm not careful I cut fletchings.I have great arrow flight and get passthru's.

Why do you feel many have the wrong spined arrows? You don't have to be a Rhodes Scholar to get the right arrows do you?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Its facts guys, that many if not most bowhunters don't play around and tinker with their equipment. Too expensive, too time consuming, aint got the tools etc etc. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Why tinker around with something if it ain't broke? Like I said before my set up shoots great, kills animals and gets pass thru's, why should I spend a ton of time tinkering with my bow? If I do have a problem I will take it to my pro-shop,why? I'm not very mechanical and a man needs to know his limitations.I can cook better then 99% of the general public,but I don't work on my own cars very much or my bows,so what? My freezer is full every year and I hit what I'm aiming at.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Quick fix ? Mechanical heads, am I not right ? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

No.your not right.If the bow isn't shooting right and isn't tuned what will happen when the mech. hits the animal? No penetration and alot of uneccessary tracking.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>No idealist thoughts here, just plain thats the way it is truth. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> You haven't even hunted a full season with your traditional equipmebt and you are already getting an attitude I can't wait until you actually get an animal with it.<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>

Charlie P

09-15-2002 10:01 AM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

Stealthy,One more thought about the tinkering and paper tuning.Have you ever won a State or National title? See my local guy has,his name is Neil Newirk,his son has also won state titles and I believe a national event.The national event I speak of is held in Las Vegas each year,I'm not into competition shooting so I don't know the class, he is in.I can find out if you doubt my word.Why should I tnker with my bow when I can take it to Neil? Another thing you know what he told me about paper tuning he doesn't do it very much if at all.

Maybe it would be better if people didn't tinker with their bows.What do you think?

trapperDave

09-15-2002 10:25 AM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

WHEW!!!This topic got the fires going

gleninAZ

09-15-2002 10:39 AM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

Took me a while to read all this. I got a new tech bow and it does shoot fast and flat. I don't shoot 3-D but do shoot in my backyard and I am a real hunter. The thing about this soap box that really bothers me is the kids reading this stuff and getting scared to ever try to bowhunt. They think they better have a rangefinder, mechanical heads, pendulum sights and a 12 inch d--k or they should never walk into the woods. You guys did take shots at animals before you knew how to judge distance and you did wound one unless you were lucky enough to have a dad like Arthur who taught you correct form etc. Lots of kids need to learn this sport and learn it right and just like you and me they will figure out from personal experience when they do something that was unethical. See ya later-takin' my anger out on my target.

Deleted User

09-15-2002 11:33 AM

[Deleted]

[Deleted by Admins]

Arthur P

09-15-2002 11:53 AM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The thing about this soap box that really bothers me is the kids reading this stuff and getting scared to ever try to bowhunt. They think they better have a rangefinder, mechanical heads, pendulum sights and a ..... or they should never walk into the woods. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Add to that list that they might think they'd better have a bow shooting 300 fps or stay home. Speed, speed and more speed. If you don't have speed, you can't hit anything. That's the big message that seems to be right up top nowadays.

No, you're wrong about my dad. He didn't know beans about bows and arrows and was a gun hunter, all the way. I had a granddad that made a few bows for me when I was little and was taught how to shoot with pinch draw and no anchor, like he learned from his friends that lived on the reservation. Shot that way with homemade, all wood bows and arrows and then a solid glass recurve for years, killed lots of critters like that too, until I took an archery class in college and learned I was doing it all wrong and the white man's way is the only true form of shooting a bow. <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

More important than how to shoot a bow, my dad, granddads, uncles and older cousins taught me how to get close to game. Close enough that I couldn't hardly miss. Even shooting 'wrong.'

In other words, we don't need all that speed. We simply need to get closer. Easier said than done, for sure. But if we wanted easier, wouldn't we be hunting with a rifle or shotgun instead?
Remember that old saying... 'Archery the art of seeing how far away you can get from something and still be able to hit it. Bowhunting is the art of getting close enough that you can't miss.'

gleninAZ

09-15-2002 12:05 PM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

Arthur-I got new bow 'cause I'm getting older and the letoff makes me better at getting the shot I want. I don't even know what speed it's shooting. I agree on the rifle stuff but still shoot one on occasion. Right on about getting close. I am a creeper and ground hunt and if I don't kill it's Ok 'cause I love to get within smell range of an elk. Just love to walk the woods at dark and set up in a thicket and it's the best way to make it a personal challenge for me. I bet most of the people here feel the same way about the hunt but ethics are very different for all. It's the indians and not the arrows. Good fall to you all.

stealthycat

09-15-2002 12:28 PM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

" I'll be honest you remind me of a guy who just quit smoking and wants to tell everyone what it's all about."

HA ! That could be true I suppose. Thing is, that guy who quit realizes the difficulty of it, while the 90% who don't quit never do.:) I missed a big CO bull elk two weeks ago. Why ? My arrow deflected on a branch right as the arrow crested its arch. With a flat shooting compound, I'd have another set of elk horns. Kudo's to all those who kill game with longbows/recurves. Its my opinion that the challenge of bowhunting added with the challenge of longbow/recurve equipment is truly a great challenge. With a compound, theres little equipment challenge - its all hunting challenge. Not dissing a compound shooter at all, I might very well shoot a Matthews next year myself.

CP - You sure typed a lot there defending yourself, and I don't think I ever mentioned your name, am I right ? So to all that, I aint going to itemize and respond.

" Another thing you know what he told me about paper tuning he doesn't do it very much if at all."

Paper tuning will tell you EVERYTHING your arrows are doing. Bare shaft tuning really shows you what your arrows are doing too. Your pro buddy I bet spends a lot of time on his equipment, doesn't he ? I can't imagine a competitive archer not. Always tweaking and trying to get a little more. Man, I bet I bought 25 different rests, 25 different sites and many different arrows and broadheads. Yeah, I know a bit about bow tuning, and I can tell you by all the guys I've shot with how poor their arrow flights would be through paper. No, I never shot tournament archery. Never desired it.

CP - You got a nice setup, you're happy with it, fine and dandy. Quite a few guys get new bows every year or two, try new carbons, a different rest etc etc, and that requires the bowhunter to retune his setups. Not tune a bow ? Stupid thought, irresponisble and anyone doing that doesn't deserve to hunt IMO. That'd be like topping a gun with a scope, bore sighting it, going straight into the woods and not going to the range - stupid and irresponsible.

gleninAZ " The thing about this soap box that really bothers me is the kids reading this stuff and getting scared to ever try to bowhunt. "

I don't really understand that. Compounds are easy to tune, they are easy to become good with. Most could practice for a few days with a well tuned bow (pro-shops are good about setting them up right) and to 20-25 yards there'd be little problems with acceptable accuracy. More practice = better accuracy of course. So archery is easier than its ever been to get into. Like Charlie P, get a setup that works, don't ever upgrade or change, use the same arrows and go deer killing. Shooting a compound can be learned in a few days, hunting takes much much longer and field experience is invaluable.

Stealthycat's Photo's

gleninAZ

09-15-2002 12:47 PM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

Stealthy-I was talkin' about the ranging expertise and the ethics comments. Point is it is easy to learn to shoot if you want to and new guys will have enough shakin' on the first shot. At some point they will have to take it and I think the new technology will help them to get that first kill. No argument from me that all need to go out and hunt. My only problem is that I have waaay too much time to look at these forums waiting for october 12th.

TFOX	09-15-2002 07:05 PM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

Hey arthur,I was asked by you to set an 80 yard pin and shoot my heavy arrow with my pin set for the light arrow in another post.I never set an 80 but I did shoot my 50 yard pin and the arrow shooting 20 fps slower was only hitting 6" low at 50 yards.At 30 I was only seeing a difference of about an 1 1/2".These are the exact same arrow with a weight tube and a heavier point.fast arrow is 268 fps and slow one is 243 fps.

The real point is that if the pins were set at 30 and 50 with the heavy arrow the arrow would have hit dead on.

Lets look at how much difference there would be between the light and heavy arrows with misjudged yardage.

If I sight in for the light arrow at 40 yards and step back 3 yards and shoot for 40 yards, the heavy arrow will shoot 1/2" lower than the fast arrow shot from 3 yards back.

Now this difference might be worth it on a 3-d range because it might mean the difference between a 10 or an 8 but on a live animal the difference isn't worth it.

There are some advantages to heavy and some advantages to speed and I like to get some where in the middle with my setup.A heavy arrow will be A LOT better in thick cover where you might encounter a a twig or leaf that you didn't see.A heavy arrow can hit these obstacles and can continue on to hit the target for a killing shot.I light arrow might continue on to hit the guts or miss completely.A light arrow will deflect much more than heavy and I choose heavy when shooting stands in thick cover.I don't worry with resighting because the difference is so slight and in thick cover I'm only going to get a 25 yard shot at the absolute max.

A light,fast,arrow can help with yardage in a slight way but for the most part is overated.I personally like the faster arrow for shooting field shots at 40 plus yards to ensure the arrow gets there just a little quicker.Just adds piece of mind to me.For me a faster arrow is usually less than 270 fps and a slow one is 230-240.

Heavy arrows can be used with a 1 pin set up also.You might need to zero in at 25 yards insted of 20 or 22.I have proved this to people that wanted to go lighter and there max yardage is 30 yards.I show them that if they were sighted in at 25 they will kill the animal from zero to 30 yards and they are usually convinced.

I charted this for a friend that has a long draw and he was very surprised.

637 gr arrow at 240 fps zeroed at 25 yards.13 yards is 4.5" high(this is the apex) and at 30 yards is 4.5" low.

Very same bow shooting 470 gr arrow at 271 fps zeroed at 25 yards.3.75" high at 13 yards(again,apex) and 3.75" low at 30.

I know this goes against the grain of what most believe but I have found it to be very accurate.

I think you will agree with this Arthur but others will find it hard to believe.I'm getting closer to agreeing with you all the time Arthur and becoming a heavy arrow advocate.
<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

I have used heavy aluminum for years on tough man 3-d shoots.These shoots will have you shooting thru bushes and all kinds of obstacles.I have actually broken an arrow on a tree and the arrow continued in to the 10 ring.I won the shoot,as well as many others.

Big Country

09-15-2002 07:23 PM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

TFOX, you`re gonna get in trouble printing the truth about this!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
By todays standards, when we speak of fast hunting arrows and slow hunting arrows, we are not talking about a huge difference!
280-300fps=fast
230-250fps=slow

At ethical hunting ranges, this is NOT a huge difference, as you have just pointed out!

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

Belle Island

09-15-2002 07:30 PM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

TFOX, you hit the nail on the head!! The fact is in a hunting situation, with my setup, misjudged yardage between 0-30yds does not change the fact that I will get a killing shot. Past 30yds, then you have to worry. I think that we have WAY to many 3D archers chiming in than we do hunters.

I know many of you guys do not think that a 3 inch variance in accuracy is acceptable. Personally, I don't understand why. Last time I checked, the kill zone of a deer is fairly large(larger than the 10 ring<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>)and where I center my sights on the deer, 3 inches would not make a difference.

Hunt the thickets

Charlie P

09-15-2002 09:29 PM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Like Charlie P, get a setup that works, don't ever upgrade or change, use the same arrows and go deer killing. Shooting a compound can be learned in a few days, hunting takes much much longer and field experience is invaluable. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Actually I bought a new bow two seasons ago and switched the carbons I shoot and bought a new site.I was getting 226 FPS out of my old set-up, now I get 266.I've killed 5 deer with it and only had to track one,it went about 150 yards.

"CP - You sure typed a lot there defending yourself, and I don't think I ever mentioned your name, am I right ? So to all that, I aint going to itemize and respond."

BTW, I wasn't defending myself,no reason to.I was using myself as an example.My bow is tuned, I just don't do it.Could you please respond to the questions I asked?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>its all hunting challenge <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

That's what I get off on! I love getting them close and slipping an arrow in em! I shot one of the ground at about 13 yards a few years ago and I thought I was going to loose it.

Arthur, I can see your point to a point, but I need a clarifacation.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Trying to rely on speed to bail your butt out of what you KNOW is a no-shoot situation is very, very poor ethics. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Is it poor ethics if I don't know for sure if the animal is at 22 or 25 yards but I know for sure because of my set up I can kill it cleanly?Does it matter if I hit two or three inches lower and still take out both lungs?

WAYNE B.

09-15-2002 10:27 PM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

Man you guys would be funny if I didn’t think you were serious. Because some one doesn’t hunt the way that you do they are unethical? Who cares what you do? I sure don’t.
I consider myself an experienced bow hunter and kill between 5 and 7 deer every bow season. I shoot one pin with an arrow speed of 276fps on a 450g arrow. I almost never shoot a deer outside of 15yds I have shot two deer in my life at 30yds. Your yardage comment is comical, I never think about yardage before a shot. When the deer gets under the tree I’m sitting in, I shoot him. I usually walk the yardage off when I get down to get my arrow.
You guys complaining about this issue are probably shooting slow bows that you bought several years ago and just don’t want to spend the money for a good one. I know a lot of bow hunters and none of them pull over 70 lbs but they all have fast bows, unless they fit into the other category. Technology has passed you by.
You probably couldn’t get $200.00 at a flea market for you whole setup including arrows!
If I wanted to shoot a slower arrow speed I would just shoot a heavier arrow. This is an option you do not have with you old outdated bow! But you already know this don’t you? All this being said, I could care less if you shoot a junk bow. The only reason you don’t shoot one pin is because you can’t.

BOWFANATIC

09-15-2002 11:01 PM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

Stealthy

You said : "Not tune a bow ? Stupid thought, irresponisble and anyone doing that doesn't deserve to hunt IMO. That'd be like topping a gun with a scope, bore sighting it, going straight into the woods and not going to the range - stupid and irresponsible."

If thats the case , then you and I , and probably everyone here , know people who harvest deer every year that dont deserve to hunt.
<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle>

TFOX

Thats good info , but not exactly for this thread IMO!
I think the people we're talking about here want to put the pin where they want it to hit , not compensate for 4 1/2" low.
A better test scenario would be zeroing a bow shooting 250 and one shooting 290 plus.
For a one pin setup , I'll take the 290 plus!
Sure a one pin setup can work with a heavier slower arrow , but you have to compensate much more than you would at the fast speeds like I mentioned above. If a hunter is a lousy yardage estimator , he's not going to know where to hold the pin wether he needs to be 4 1/2" low or 2" high because he's not sure of the yardage.

Arthur

Other than a couple threads here and there , where are you getting all of this "speed speed speed , light arrow , one pin , etc. etc. propaganda at? I dont see hunting mags pushing speed speed speed! I dont see the archery industry pushing speed! I see the archery industry offering bows that will suit the speed seekers along with the log shooters. I see the arrow mfg's offering arrows to suit each! Just about every month I see an article describing how too much speed can create poor broadhead flight or how some hunting mag writer prefers around 250 fps for deerhunting. I dont see posts by members here telling someone new that they need to shoot 300 fps. In fact I haven't seen posts here telling anyone they need to shoot light fast arrows for anything. Someone will usually post a question and others will answer and give advice or tell them what works for them. If you do a search on "carbon -vs- alluminum or light -vs- heavy or fast -vs- slow" posts , the common denominator in all of them will be Arthur P!
If anyone is pushing anything around here , it's you and your slow heavy arrows.
I'm not trying to engage in a flame war here , I'm just calling it like I see it.
BTW , theres nothing wrong with heavy or slow , to each his own!

Edited by - bowfanatic on 09/16/2002 00:25:50

Big Country

09-16-2002 12:00 AM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

I think this thread has taken several different roads since it began.
I feel that some people are talking about one thing, while others are talking about another.
Bowfanatic just posted he would like to see a specific test run.

I will shoot different arrow weights(significantly different) at different speeds on monday afternoon. I will test one pin set dead on @ 20yds., then hold spot on @ 30 and 40yds, and get an average of the drop at 30 and 40 when using a 20yd. pin.
Bowfanatic, if you have any specific thing in mind other than what you already mentioned, I will be on and off of this site until about 6:30am eastern time.

Hey Wayne B., I assume I am one of those guys you are talking about with the 200.00 bow that can`t afford a fast one, so I may need to borrow some of your top notch equipment!

One more thing Bowfanatic, can we agree that regardless of the bow, an arrow of a certain weight leaving at a certain speed will perform the same downrange. I believe this to be true, and I ask this so I don`t need to take more than a few rigs to the club to conduct this little experiment.

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

WAYNE B.

09-16-2002 01:23 AM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

I guess I miss spoke. You know what you hunt with and the reasons you do. That is none of my business and that is my point. If you do not want one of the new bows that are capable of shooting one pin that if fine, you certainly don’t have to have one to kill a deer. By the same token you have no right to question someone ethics simply by how many pins they shoot. The most important thing to killing a deer is shot placement and nothing else. Any hunting broadhead shot off of almost any hunting bow will kill a deer if you hit it in the right place.
Arthur started this topic with one of the most ignorant things I have heard. All of my stands are 30ft high and at that height 30yds looks like a mile. I have killed deer at this distance but do not make a habit of it. Normally all my shots are chip shots and distance is the last ting I am worried about. I have killed a lot of deer with my bow and have missed a few. The ones I have missed have had nothing to do with distance; it wouldn’t have mattered if I had 20 pins.
My problem with Arthur is his arrogance to pass judgment on someone for such a stupid topic and the fact that someone who is starting out might read his post and believe that bull. The only people that are worried about distance or the ones that need to be and if a fast arrow will pass through a deer then it doesn’t matter anyway. I don’t shoot a light arrow but I know people that do and they have no problem with a pass through if they make a good shot. Nothing will make up for a bad shot. I agree with the guy who said let them get close.

Big Country

09-16-2002 02:21 AM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

Wayne B., I just went back and reread ArthurP`s original post. Nowhere in his post does he even hint about anyone using one pin! What he does talk about is people who think speed alone can buy them a big margin of error savings. It cannot! That is what I got out of his post.
Next, you have treestands 30' in the air. So do I, several of mine are in the 30-35' range, and 30 yds. does`nt look like a mile to me.
In all my posts on this thread, I certainly never put down anybody who uses one pin. I USE ONE PIN! What I did say(or try to)is that there are many rookies, wannabes, whatever you wish to call them that think that a high speed rig shoots flat as a rifle. It just ain`t so. I will post the results of my little test on monday night, or tuesday night.
I can tell you now, before I get the test results that no matter how fast you are shooting, when you get to the 35yd. and out range, even with a bow going 290fps in hunting trim, you better be within 2 or 3 yds. of your yardage guess. If not, you are going to have a problem, and that is if you held in the exact spot you wanted to hit, and made a flawless release. Let that arrow go when you are not on the right spot, now we have BIG problems.
I wish you would go back and reread what ArthurP posted, with an open mind, and I think you will see that he was`nt trying to bash anyone who shoots a fast bow, or one pin. Just the guys that think a fast bow is a replacement for practice, practice, practice!
I`ll get the results up as quick as I can.

And BTW, I would have to actually go count them, but off the top of my head I have at least ten bows that are 1999 models or newer. Only three are 2002 models...guess I`m slowing down a little bit!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

Straightarrow

09-16-2002 05:44 AM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>And BTW, I would have to actually go count them, but off the top of my head I have at least ten bows that are 1999 models or newer. Only three are 2002 models...guess I`m slowing down a little bit!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Big Country, I agree with your last post. BTW, what do you do with that many bows? :)

Big Country

09-16-2002 06:35 AM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

What do I do with that many bows? That is a question my wife asks me occasionally!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> I just like to shoot the new stuff that comes out, and since I am left handed it is harder for me to sell bows. Some of the older ones I like too much to part with. You never know when you might need them! HeHe.

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

silentassassin

09-16-2002 06:41 AM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>silentassassin....I AM YOUR IDOL, ADMIT IT, I HAVE MORE BOOK BUCKS ON MY WALL THAN YOU COULD EVER HOPE TO. ALL THE WHILE CHANTING..."WOLFEN68 IS THE BEST, WOLFEN68 IS THE BEST...!!!" BAWAHAHAHAH
**Edited for content
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Ahh shucks you're right wolfen, you are my hero<img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle>

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The thing about this soap box that really bothers me is the kids reading this stuff and getting scared to ever try to bowhunt. They think they better have a rangefinder, mechanical heads, pendulum sights and a ..... or they should never walk into the woods.
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Add to that list that they might think they'd better have a bow shooting 300 fps or stay home.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Or even worse if they have some moron who thinks he knows it all telling them that they are unethical if they shoot a fast bow.<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Other than a couple threads here and there , where are you getting all of this "speed speed speed , light arrow , one pin , etc. etc. propaganda at? I dont see hunting mags pushing speed speed speed! I dont see the archery industry pushing speed! I see the archery industry offering bows that will suit the speed seekers along with the log shooters. I see the arrow mfg's offering arrows to suit each! Just about every month I see an article describing how too much speed can create poor broadhead flight or how some hunting mag writer prefers around 250 fps for deerhunting. I dont see posts by members here telling someone new that they need to shoot 300 fps. In fact I haven't seen posts here telling anyone they need to shoot light fast arrows for anything. Someone will usually post a question and others will answer and give advice or tell them what works for them. If you do a search on "carbon -vs- alluminum or light -vs- heavy or fast -vs- slow" posts , the common denominator in all of them will be Arthur P!
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Arthur is confusing us with the speed craze of the late 80's and early 90's. No one is preaching speed speed speed any more but Arthurp.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>My problem with Arthur is his arrogance to pass judgment on someone for such a stupid topic and the fact that someone who is starting out might read his post and believe that bull. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Pretty pathetic isn't it.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Wayne B., I just went back and reread ArthurP`s original post. Nowhere in his post does he even hint about anyone using one pin! What he does talk about is people who think speed alone can buy them a big margin of error savings <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

No what he did was lump everyone that shoots light fast arrows into the same category by calling them all unethical.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I wish you would go back and reread what ArthurP posted, with an open mind <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Why? Arthur damn sure didn't start it with an open mind.

Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal."

Edited by - PABowhntr on 09/16/2002 10:52:24

amosgreg

09-16-2002 06:45 AM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

A couple of observations
1) Big Country if a slow bow is 230-250fps then what is 208 fps considered besides quite? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

2) Wayne B, In your neck of the woods your shooting distance appears to be quite close, however this past June I was hunting over a waterhole in South Africa during in drought conditions and the water was 22 yards from where I was set up with shots ranging to over 45 yards. I didn't take any as the animals were VERY jumpy coming in but I had 5 Nyala bulls, quite a few Impala rams, several Duikers and Zebras. If I ahd a shot it would have been no closer than 25 yards at the waterhole. Not a chip shot. In Montana I had Elk and Mule Deer at distances close to 45 yards and I took my first Antelope at 55 yards.

Do I recommend long distance shots? No! I won't even consider a shot of these distances here in Ohio, but conditions and terrain are different and that is what drives the shooting distance for me.
I practice out to 45 yards but limit myself to what I consider a high percentage shot, which is usually under 25 yards here.

Arthur, Light vs Heavy out of my bow make a difference, I haven't measured the difference but it is noticeable in the flight of the arrow. I was working up a arrow/broadhead combination for a small antelope at long distance for my hunt in South Africa but decided to stay with my current set-up as the difference was too much to really adjust to in terms of visualizing the flight of the arrow. I hunt with pins but shoot more instinctive, and since my recurve shoots the same set-up(back-up bow) I don't have as much of a problem here as others do.

My 2 cents

Greg

"Getting close to the game is the joy of Bowhunting for me, the harvest is a bonus."

Live 15 ft Python after eating a small Antelope!

stealthycat

09-16-2002 07:03 AM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

BOWFANATIC " If thats the case , then you and I , and probably everyone here , know people who harvest deer every year that dont deserve to hunt."

Yes and I see people who aren't fit to drive cars and yet they do. The difference ? Bowhunting is under attack, and irresponsibility adds fuel to the fire. Shooting an untuned bow is irresponsible.

Truth is, if I could get a 50# longbow that'd shoot an arrow well at 250 fps, I'd buy one. Why ? More speed = more KE and momentum. You won't see a longbow doing that though.

In a few years when Matthews and Bowtech unviel a 1 1/2 pound bow that has 95% hodling weight, a fancy little high tech device that makes drawing the bow very easy too and one that spits a 450 gr arrows 400 fps, what will ya'll think about that ? One pin out to 50 yards - too much technology ?

Stealthycat's Photo's

Bowshopper

09-16-2002 08:00 AM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

I thought most of those one pin sights have an adjustment knob for yardage? Quote this, Slow arrows suck. I have seen whitetail jump out of the way on more than one occasion. If you stalk hunt in open country good luck with your slow arrow!

BobCo19-65

09-16-2002 08:08 AM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Quote this, Slow arrows suck. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Tell us how you really feel. <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

Boy, I guess all the traditional hunters including myself really don't have a clue.

But, I guess, I'll just stick with my "sucky arrows" anyway. They have always performed well for me.

BTW, I had one (deer) move when I shot carbons. It turned a vital shot into a gut shot. I had to recover the deer the next day. So any arrow speed choice does not relieve you 100%. I will say that the heavy arrows are quiter in flight, and coming off the bow, so on an unalerted deer, you may actually have an advantage in quietness.

Kanga

09-16-2002 08:27 AM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

Once again a topic has been changed from the original to a heavy v light arrow.

I totally agree with Arthur about those who cant judge distance for squat so they go out and buy a speed bow to make up for their misjudged yardages.

I have been hunting for 40 years and am pretty good at judging the yardage from the ground because until I moved here I had never heard of a tree stand let alone seen one.
But put me 20 feet up a tree now that is another story I cant judge the distance thats why I got a range finder cause I owe it to the animal I am hunting.

Plus I have just a single pin sight but it is moveable and it dont take long to adjust it.

For those of you that they say have a single pin set at 20 or 25 yrds and can hit dead on at 0 to 30 I say BULL
There was a thread not so long ago about a target at 3 yrds you guys go out at put your pin dead on and see what happens.

When I got my current bow I got it because of the way it felt in my hands the speed side of it was a bonus I dont look at IBO or AMO ratings when I buy a bow I go on the feel of it.

So in suming up Arthur has an allie in some one that has a speed bow.

BobCo19-65

09-16-2002 08:35 AM

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

Ausie, forgive me if I am wrong, but doesn't a light arrow travel faster then a heavy arrow out of the same bow? Doesn't arrow weight have something to do with speed? And doesn't the two have some relevance in arrow trajectory, which certainlly ties into yardage judgements. I would say that the weight of an arrow has some relevance here (definitely, not the only factor). I certainly wouldn't discredit it.

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