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RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows

How do you see I am greedy. I just want designated seasons to be standardised for like weapons. That is what it seems like was happening before, with the help of Biolgists crossbows were introduced, this is only pertaining to my state I will not speak for others. I did not sit in on there mettings. A bow is a Bow in a hunting situation, a crossbow is not like a bow when used in a hunting situation, so why should it be in the same season. On archerytalk.com there is an article on a gun that with the aid of a blank, and an arrow in the Barrel when fired shoots the arrow. Does that mean its a Bow as well?

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows

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Because your point above is EXACTLY true of ML, shotguns and rifles... and guess what, they each have their own seasons.... you write it, but don't understand what you type.

Well one of us certainly doesn't understand. Because during gun season where rifles are legal you can shoot a shotgun, rifle, or pistol in the same season.;)

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No, the line already exists. Crossbows just ended up on the wrong side for your liking. Try as you will, they aren't on the archery side.

I am not going to shoot one anyway so my liking is on the side of the best interest of others and the sport not my own personal preference, unlike you. Also, some states and alot of people disagree with you about which side they fall on and the tide is turning toward more and more states saying they fall on the same side of archery that you do.

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They didn't "allow" compounds to be considered legal archery equipment. It qualified by meeting all of their defined criteria already. They have ALWAYS been considered bows. After 50 pages I would think you'd have figured out it was the crossbow that isn't considered a bow and it doesn't meet the legal criteria to qualify for archery season.

I think you may need to check your history because after compounds were invented the DNR's did have to go back and re-write the laws to either allow them or not. Some states did that quicker the others.

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Guess what? They are out of archery season. That doesn't mean they can't hunt though!

Guess what? With hunters with attitudes like yours, we may all be out of archery season before long;) Like I said before with hunters lobbying against other hunters, we don't really need anti-hunters.

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Asking someone to wait is now a bad thing?

You tell me if you kid has to wait and looses interest and starts running with the wrong crowd was making them wait a bad thing? But why should they have to wait because they don't have the same physical ability as someone else? Is that descrimination based on physical ability?

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We should all roll over for some impatience from a few crossbow hunters

Why do you have to rollover. What would it hurt you anyway? what effect would it have on you? Why do you deserve to be in the woods and they don't?

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows

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a crossbow is not like a bow when used in a hunting situation,

except in the projectile it uses, the range, the KE, the trajectory, the limbs, the cams, the cables, the broadheads. If we were making a checklist it would be leaning pretty heavily toward the bow wouldn't it;)

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On archerytalk.com there is an article on a gun that with the aid of a blank, and an arrow in the Barrel when fired shoots the arrow. Does that mean its a Bow as well?

If it's a gun that fires it's arrow through the use of stored energy via limbs, string and cables it does[:-]

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows

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Well one of us certainly doesn't understand. Because during gun season where rifles are legal you can shoot a shotgun, rifle, or pistol in the same season.

Instead of thinking of bows as rifles, think of them like Muzzleloaders. You can't hunt with shotguns or rifles during Muzzleloader season. Are you getting the picture yet .. we HAVE DIFFERENT SEASONS FOR DIFFERENT WEAPONS.

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Also, some states and alot of people disagree with you about which side they fall on and the tide is turning toward more and more states saying they fall on the same side of archery that you do.

You are 100% right, but they still are only allowed to hunt during archery season in 3 states.... why do you think that is???? Right, they aren't bows. So 6% agree with you. I'd say that sounds about right.

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Because I am thorough, and bored at this conference I am attending I tried finding some record of a state not allowing a compound during archery season. Couldn't find a one, but I'd be interested in seeing anything you could find supporting your claim. If it exists.

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Guess what? With hunters with attitudes like yours, we may all be out of archery season before long Like I said before with hunters lobbying against other hunters, we don't really need anti-hunters.

Now you are sounding peevish. Hunters don't always have to agree with everything other hunters say. No one says here that you can't hunt with the bow/rifle hybrid things .. in fact you already can in almost every state. So did you really mean to say hunters lobbying against changing the rules to make crossbow hunters not have to hunt with the firearm guys? Everything here has been about letting crossbow hunters hunt.. you just don't seem to like the waiting part.

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Are you honestly saying that kids who can't hunt with crossbows during archery season will join gangs? Is it that bad where you are from? You know what, if you were right .. why make kids wait to graduate high school? Why do they have to wait to drive a car .. hell, my kid is 5 months old... what do I tell him at 10 years old when he tells me he wants to drive? I guess you'll tell yours it's ok and petition the state to change the minimum age .. me, I'll go with telling mine "to wait". Silent... everyone has to wait, I don't care who you are .. and impatience is not going to change it.

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Why do you have to rollover. What would it hurt you anyway? what effect would it have on you? Why do you deserve to be in the woods and they don't?

Please .. you sound like your begging now. Crossbows do deserve to be in the woods, and are allowed in the woods. In their appropriate time and place. Just because you don't like it ... aint going to change it.

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows

I just wanted to post this again, please take the time and read it.

I have highlighted some important points.

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I think this might be my last post on this subject for a while and it may be long so please bare with me.

To all those who dislike the crossbow (in archery) because it's not what most PRESUME as "archery" ie: a hand held bow that must be drawn at (or about) the time of the shot and not 3hrs before or whenever. I think I understand this view more than all of the others because this is where the two are the most different. I think I got caught up in the letter of the definition and not the spirit of the definition. That being said It still does not change the definition, but I understand very much the problem some have with it. I myself have the hardest time with that part of it.

If you noticed I spent most of my time posting about the firearm vs bow debate. This I am stead fast on. I think there have been enough examples given to prove a crossbow is not a firearm.

So where do I stand on the matter? I don't shoot a crossbow, they are not legal in Illinois unless you have an handicap. But if I could I would probably try one to see what they are all about. I honestly do not think it would hurt anyone or anything if allowed. I say this because the states that do allow them seem to have no problems with them. Again I base my answer on the track record of the states that do allow them. After all what better case study than that?

Another hard question I have asked myself is, if allowed, what season would I want them allowed in? This one really got under some people's skin, and for the life of me I don't know why. I know some of you think you are alpha hunters and this is a "slap in the face" for "true" bow hunters if crossbows are included. I can tell you one thing for sure. I am as dyed in the wool hunter as you will ever find. I don't just hunt deer. As I stated before I have hunted pretty much anything you can in the lower 48 states. My passion for hunting is as strong as any on this board.

Because I have been around all types of weapons and all types of hunters I can safely say that you will find those who underestimate, overestimate and simply have limited knowledge of the weapon they are using. Some to the point that it's scary. My point is you find these types of people in every aspect of hunting and it would shock you as to the number or them. I know a guy who has been a bow huntng for 5 years now. The other day we were talking about his bow and I asked him what his draw length was....he didn't know! When I pressed him on it he said " my proshop sets up my bow for me"

I can't tell you how many hunters I talk to that have no idea the capability and range their slug shot gun has. They are either way underestimating it or overestimating it, both could spell disaster in the field. I had one tell me that a modern sabow slug could not kill a deer at 200yds. I was in shock and thought I hope he is never near me when I'm hunting, as he has no idea the killing range his gun has and would be the type to take a shot at a deer knowing there are other hunters a few hunderd yards away thinking his slug would never reach!

So what season? I wish there could be a way to separate them but I feel it would cause too much fighting because some group would have to give up some days and I can't see that happening. In some states it might work, but most no. The only logical one for me is the archery season if not for any other reason than a crossbow is not a firearm.

So can I find a negative about crossbows? No...... at least no more than I can find about any other type of weapon as none are perfect are they? Thats where I stand, it's not how everybody thinks and that's fine with me.

Thanks for listening

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows

BigJ-

Your point that a crossbow is not a firearm is not disputed. As you said-

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I understand very much the problem some have with it. I myself have the hardest time with that part of it.

You seemed to come to a conclusion that while different, a crossbow could be considered archery.. even though it was tough for you. On the point that a crossbow holds the weapon at full draw and all bows don't, how do you rationalize that away. It's whaty makes a bow a bow and a crossbow something else.

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I wish there could be a way to separate them but I feel it would cause too much fighting because some group would have to give up some days and I can't see that happening

There we differ. You can seperate them .. in fact they ARE seperated already. The only group that this doesn't work for is the crossbow guys. The DNR's don't have to appease them, but if their popularity and use as a management tool is viable they could and in some states should have a season of their own to see what happens. They absolutely do not have to be considered archery, in fact that is the only way you really upset people. If their seperate seasons overlap ... that is ok and may well happen as in Maryland. Nobody here disputes this. The longer this goes .. the weaker the arguments to allow them.

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows

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Instead of thinking of bows as rifles, think of them like Muzzleloaders.

that would be conveinient for you but it wouldn't be taking everything into consideration.

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You can't hunt with shotguns or rifles during Muzzleloader season. Are you getting the picture yet .. we HAVE DIFFERENT SEASONS FOR DIFFERENT WEAPONS.

Sometimes we have differnt seasons for different weapons and sometimes we allows the weapon to be used in the same season. It depends on the weapon. Your scenario didn't work out like you wanted to did it;)

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I didn't say they didn't allow them. I said they had to re-write there laws inorder to allow them and some states did it quicker than others.

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Now you are sounding peevish. Hunters don't always have to agree with everything other hunters say

No they don't have to agree or even need to. i think a spirited debate is a good thing. However, when you let those feelings lead you to lobby against other hunters (which is the same thing anti-hunters do) then that's a bad thing. Kind of like why you don't vote for an assualt weapons ban. Because whether or not you want to own an assualt wepon, you don't even want the ball to start rolling in tha direction. Right now you are standing at the top of the cliff trying to roll it off.

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you just don't seem to like the waiting part.

I don't think people should have to wait just because you don't feel like

sharing "your" season.

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Are you honestly saying that kids who can't hunt with crossbows during archery season will join gangs?

I am saying that we shouldn't have an obstacle in the way of kids pursuing the sport.

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You know what, if you were right .. why make kids wait to graduate high school? Why do they have to wait to drive a car .. hell, my kid is 5 months old... what do I tell him at 10 years old when he tells me he wants to drive?

Because the state has put laws in effect to regulate these activites but that isn't apples to apples because in many states it's legal for a kid to hunt with a gun at 10 but not a crossbow.

Please .. you sound like your begging now. Crossbows do deserve to be in the woods, and are allowed in the woods. In their appropriate time and place. Just because you don't like it ... aint going to change it.

You sound like you are dodging the question.

Data and Big I am leaving it with you to spend 3 days chasing long beards in MS;)

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows

okay - here goes

MNRut - I'm using YOUR reasoing and applying it in kind to compounds. Thats not putting words in your mouth, its using what you believe and applying that belief to compounds. It comes across as twisting because you are twisting YOUR own words.

Example -

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I will continue to shoot a compound because I believe using a recurve to hunt is an unnecessary risk to wounding an animal when the technology exists to make us more effective.

That means its a more effective bow to use, no two ways about it. Yet IF a crossbow gives guys the same advantage ....... you're against it ? And if a crossbow DOESN'T give the same advantages ........ then are you against recurves because they're not as apt to lead to wounded/missed deer ?

You tell me - its your quote

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That is how they are drawn and "held" at full draw and how they all require the same form to be shot accurately. (Form = bow hand grip, consistent anchor point, consistent sighting method, smooth arrow release and follow through)

A crossbow isn't held ? Oh, you mean actually drawing a bow with your fingers, having to hold the full weight of the bow with no letoff ? Or do you mean holding the bow at a hard cant and shooting off the shelf ? Or maybe you mean "sighting" as in not using pins or peeps - truly instinctive shooting ? Maybe you mean shooting like Fred bear was known to do - snap shooting in odd angles, adapting his releases/anchor and shooting 3/4 drawn ?

No - you mean the compound way - bow vertical, open handed, using a wrsit strap triggered release to draw a 75# bow that feels like 45# and has a holding weight of 7 pounds ? You mean using a peep, fiber optic sights, cams and pulleys and string and cables to launch the arrow instead of the dynamics of the limbs after pulling the trigger and as the arrow launches out of a drop away rest ?

Which did you mean and how again were they the same ?

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Come on, of course it doesn't! Military bases, state parks, even some communities all have "special" rules they make to control game and limit hunting access.

So at McAlister and in those areas a compound isn't a bow then ?

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The one thing ALL bows have in common are the manual drawing of a string attached to limbs that store the energy tranferred to them by the muscles of the person drawing the bow. Upon the manual release of the string that energy stored in the limbs is expelled and transferred into the string and then onto the arrow. At no point is the energy released from the "human" until release of the arrow occurs

Limbs of a compound don't store much energy anymore, do they ? Its the essentrics of the cams that create the energy. Crossbows have string attached to limbs. Both release the string and stored energy using a mechanical triggered release.

Manually drawing of the string ? I suppose one could force crossbow archers to not use a cocker. But truthfully, if the mechanical release wasnt available, compounders would find themselves in fits trying to shoot their bows, especially the bows of today.

How can you overlook that ? Even the muscles used to draw a compound aren't the same as a recurve - because you're not using your fingers, you're using your wrist and arm.

And yes, thats slitting hairs but, hey, its YOU who want to draw the lines of how bows are drawn, not me, I'm just pointing out how much difference there really is in the grand scheme of things.

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This is just your "opinion" and a dumb one at that. There was no HUGE anti compound sentiment... as I said before, when the compound was launched ... it was an inferior weapon to traditional equipment based on it's lack of reliability, consistency and noise alone.

Actually it WAS fought hard against from what I've read. If thats what a compound was ........ it surely isn't now, do you agree with that ? Are you agasint the modern compound bow ? Do you agree pandora's bow of archery was opened then ?

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You are a meatball. I have never said "better" or "inferior", just different. I personally think "Crossbowhunter" doesn't sound like a bad moniker to have... but why are you crossbow guys avoiding it like it's diseased? Perhaps because it validates the "different" part????

I EAT meatballs, I am not one. Crossbowers it is , and we'll tab them compounders and then the rest of us guys we'll call ourselves (using recurves and longbows) BOWHUNTERS and ARCHERS. Fair ?

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Here you have a valid point. Choice, and mine and other archers and 47 states have made the choice that a crossbow is not "archery" equipment.

And when it changes, your mind will magically change too ?

Because the law is in place does not make it a correct one, does it ?

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What makes the compound so much different than any other bow?

Several things. The ability to draw and hold while the animal cannot see you is a HUGE thing to overcome when you're use to it. I mean, for anyone who hasn't recurve/longbow hunted, that animal has to be RIGHT THERE - before you draw, with all your attention focused, no letoff, no pause, no holding ......... its vastly different. The letoff is huge. The short ATA is an advantage, and anymore, the extreme light weight. Peeps and sights too - and not many trad guys use those on hunting bows. Target - maybe, but 30#'s is way different than 50#'s. The new compounds too are SO quite - scary quiet. Easy to tune - super accurate. Even in states where crossbows are allowed people still hunt a LOT with compounds. Why ? Obviously, they're better to use in hunting situations. Anyone who stalks uses compounds - not crossbows too. Lots of reasons to use a compound - I'd NEVER use a crossbow over a compound, ever.

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Silent, everyone knows that shotguns and ML shoot rifle bullets out of sabots... Guys, you are killing me,

But the difference is loose powder vs shells - a core difference that goes beyond does it have a different stock or way to hold it. But - inlines and modern muzzleloaders have gone way too far too.

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Yes, I did speak with the old timers ... you do realize that the number of "archers" 25 years ago was a fraction of what we have today right?

And they hated the idea of an easy to use wepaon barging into their archery season, adding vastly to the numbers od hunters in the woods, threatening to reduce their seasons and baglimits .......... wait, isn't that EXACTLY what compounders say of crossbows ??

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows

This is just a big joke! If some one is not tristing your words areound they lie or call you names.THe people whom are doing this are the same people pushing xbow. MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM Maby they are allso twisting the facts and lieing about the xbows . You guys should see how you twist and lie about what people say. you just turn the words any way you want them. No difrant than a polition.

Befor all this crap you may have been able to get me to vote your way.Now looking at the way you all turn every post around or lie about You must be hideing some thing so.If it ever come to vote here in mt. I will vote agist it. It is bad I like to shoot my xbow and hunt with it.

As I stated xbows can be used here in MT . In the rifle season where they belong just as I use mine.

RE: please tell me just one negative to crossbows

MA Jay

I will try to answer your questions as best I can.

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On the point that a crossbow holds the weapon at full draw and all bows don't, how do you rationalize that away. It's whaty makes a bow a bow and a crossbow something else.

This is the point that even I have the hardest time with because it is so different. I guess the way I rationalize it is like this. While that is a big difference, there are still so many similarities that can't be ignored that make it still more bow like than anything else. Including it's legal definition.

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There we differ. You can seperate them .. in fact they ARE seperated already.

Like I said, in some states it can be done, but here in Illinois I don't know if it can. It's not separate here now. Crossbows are allowed by handicaped during the archery season only. If they become legal they won't be separated, the season will stay the same, during the archery season. So if it does happen (becomes legal) and the bow hunters start to complain where do you move it to? Makes for allot of infighting if you ask me and for what?

I guess what i'm trying to say is if legalized, crossbows are gonna need a season. I think what you will find is that the states that allow them for the handicapped during the gun season will continue to use that season. The states that allow them for the handicapped during the archery season will continue to use that season. And the states that have a separate season now will keep it separate.

What I have a problem with is the attitude " it's ok to allow crossbows as long as it's not during MY season" to me it sounds elitist. Especially when there is no PROVEN fact that it would be a detriment to the season. If anything it CAN be proved that the two can get along in the same season by the states that allow it now.