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...your comparisons are completely inaccurate.

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Your biased, uneducated opinion is way off base!

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I can promise you that deer in high fence enclosures, regardless of size, are as wild as wild can be.(assuming they were not bottle fed, and handled by humans at birth.)

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How do I know this...I have deer in pens.

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You don`t know what you are talking about! You are simply speaking out in anger, not reason.

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Another thing....if you would have come back under the same name, your words might hold some value. To attempt to hide like a little creep behind a different handle, after you ran away crying the last time.......pathetic!

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How is the view from that high horse you ride?

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This $hit coming from a guy that hung his own child over the fence at the lion/bear/whatever the animal pen was.

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[red]No topics and/or statements which could be used to reflect poorly on hunting, archery or firearms. Anti-hunting and other posts indicating a stance against the hunting, archery and firearm industry will be removed. [/red]

The very board we visit violates these rules. Why ? Old Stone Fence hunting preserve (aka Forbare game farm) and White Oak Hunting are sponsers - look them up in the Outfitters section. White oak is 1,000 acres and bosts 1200 animals on that 1,000 acres. Go to their web site and see. Old Stone Fence is a shooting preserve that breeds top notch elk and whitetails ... and you can shoot Bucky for the right price too. I have been arguing on the Big Game Forum about the ethics of hunting and the very board we visit violates it.

http://www.huntingoutfitters.com/oldstonefence/
http://www.fobarehunting.com/ElkBreeding.html
http://www.whiteoakhunting.com/

I could type everything I have already typed to present my argument, but anyone who know hunting can go to these sites and realize it isn't hunting, its just shooting penned animals or at best an animal much like a cow would be. That aint hunting, and the ARA'a key in on it more than anything else. Hunting for heads and horns.

Take a look at these links, do a little searching and send emails to the Hunting BBS at [email protected] I sent the following email twice with no responses. Thats enough to convince me I am either right or no one cares.


[red]No topics and/or statements which could be used to reflect poorly on hunting, archery or firearms. Anti-hunting and other posts indicating a stance against the hunting, archery and firearm industry will be removed. [/red]

Those are the rules on the Hunting.Net forums. Can you answer me this .. is Old Stone Fence hunting preserve a canned hunt or isn't it ? Yes, its legal under NY laws, but does it reflect poorly on hunting ? Can the anti-hunting crowds use places like this in their attacks against our rights to hunt ?

<http://www.peta-online.org/alert/aut...asp?id=300>
<http://www.wildlifeprotection.net/Ca...index.html>
<http://www.fund.org/cannedhunts/>
<http://www.hsus.org/ace/12017>


Those are web sites where anti-hunting groups attack canned hunts. While some of their claims are not true, the overall opinion that hunting a penned, half tame aniamls isn't hunting.


http://www.huntingoutfitters.com/oldstonefence/
<http://www.fobarehunting.com/ElkBreeding.html>


This site says ...
" Registered Rocky Mountain Elk
Blood Lines From:
*HeavyV * Roy * USA1 *
*Harry * Tremor * Dakota Pride
*Diamond
Top Blood Lines
Bred Cows, Calves, Herd Sires
Free Delivery On:
Breeding Packages in Northeast
Also Quality Whitetail Breeding Stock
Economical Ideas On:
Fencing & Handling Facilities
Dealer for Tightlock & Solidlock Fencing
Also Facility and Fencing Construction
And also Home of the:
Old Stone Fence Hunting Adventures


I submit that Old Fence Hunting Preserve is canned hunting. They raise penned animals for breeding stock and people who want to hunt these same animals can pay a hefty fee, drive in, shoot the animal (remember, no kill no pay) and go home with a "trophy". While legal, this is NOT hunting and its fuel for the anti-hunting groups. Killing a penned elk or deer on places like this preserve is no different than going out to Farmer Brown's field and shooting a cow. Good meat but theres no hunt there and no trophy.

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In time, he will learn and approach the issues from a more conventional stance to affect change.

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In reading over all of the posts on this topic, I must say that it is great to see the energy and thought that people are putting into this topic. The one thing we need to remember is we are all a family, a hunting family, and there is nothing more the "Anti's" want to see than fighting/negativity within our family. If you don't take anything else from my post, please take that with you as it is the truth, bottom line!

Now understanding there has been arguments in our industry for years over which is the right bow to use compound or tranditional, whether it is right or not to harvest a Rhino in Africa, the shooting of upland game at a hunting preserve as opposed to wild birds or the debates between Fly-fishermen and the conventionals, shooting a flyer at an AKC hunt test but I think we need to look at the big picture here. What is it exactly we, as hunters, are to accomplish by talking negative about the hunting industry.......Absolutely Nothing! Nothing good can come out of this....... it only weakens us as a family. Now, I know that all families don't get along and that there will be debates, but let's not put it out there for the public eye to see. Opinions are good but should be handled correctly.

Stealthycat, you have every right your thoughts/feelings/beliefs and we would hate to lose your input, however does posting those beliefs help or hurt our hunting community in the long run? Think about that question for a minute and then think about how the more outfitters and hunting related companies grow the industry and allow us more opportunities to do what so love to do weather you would do it or not.

Just to reinforce what I wrote earlier, there is nothing worse than for our industry -- our passion -- than to speak negative about it in the public eye, it only weakens us as a whole.

Todd Graf - President
HuntingNet.Com

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Todd -


You said " What is it exactly we, as hunters, are to accomplish by talking negative about the hunting industry.......Absolutely Nothing! Nothing good can come out of this....... it only weakens us as a family. "

Theres a lot that can be learned by talking about the goods and the bads of an industry, or of anything for that matter. That's in part how new rules and regulations are created. I've been almost a daily poster on the Hunting BBS forum for going on 3 years. That's a long time and much good has come from those forums. Your archive search engine is lacking, but much like the Leather Wall, there's fantastic information available and its very worthwhile. I have long admired that and always wanted to be asked to be a moderator for your board.
There was a topic posted on the Big Game Forum that started me looking into Old Fence Hunting . A few Google searches and I found out that Steve & Gayle Fobare also ran Forbare ranch, where they raise registered elk and deer. They raise them to sell, and they raise them to hunt on the same property from what I gather from talking to the man who hunted there and also through internet searches. I never found out exactly how many acres of land they had. So thinking this was a fluke, I went to http://www.huntingoutfitters.com/ and did a search on elk. Then the White Oak Hunting Preserve showed up - a 1000 acre farm in IL boasting 1200 animals, walk in, pick your animal and shoot away. I suspect a couple of others doing the same thing too.
Now, I am not one to try and tell people how to hunt, but hunt is the key word. Some states don't allow you to sell animals under the context that its hunting, it has to be harvest or another word. EBAY sells a lot of canned hunting, such as this one ..

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=1976229719

Todd, this is NOT hunting. Its going into a farm and shooting the equivalent of old Betsy the milk cow. If people want to do this, I really have no problem with that. I am sure the meat is dang tasty. However, to confuse it with hunting is sending a message out to all non-hunters - the SAME message the anti-hunters are sending them. In essence, those who favor this type of "hunting" is verifying what the ARA's are saying, that hunting is the killing of animals and the mounting of heads ... trophy hunting with no regard to fair chase or to all the other aspects of hunting.
Keep checking back to that thread. Several guys there are in agreement that its not hunting. Check the thread out on the Big Game Forum - again, hunters do NOT want associated with canned hunting - its political suicide. I posted for 3 years without knowing that the very sponsors of the site I loved were selling canned hunts. Its sickening, and I'd have never started going to your site had I know before hand. My decision is based on ethics, convictions and priorities. Hunting heritage is dear to me. I realize that 20 years ago canned hunting didn't exist like it does today. I realize that I will have to teach my children how its wrong, and that their hunting public land with marginal success is more hunting than going to a preserve and killing animals every year. I don't want to think about what my kids will have to teach their kids.
Please reconsider your sponsors, and how they conduct their business. Please consider that the very rule you have on your forum, Rule # 5

No topics and/or statements which could be used to reflect poorly on hunting, archery or firearms. Anti-hunting and other posts indicating a stance against the hunting, archery and firearm industry will be removed.
, is one you yourself are breaking by allowing sponsors who sell canned hunts. This is one thing I am certain will lead to all of losing our hunting rights and privelages. Sure, its a money making deal, but is it ethical, is it the right thing to do ?
My father in law and I own 600 acres in northern AR. I could high fence that, put boar and registered deer on it and make money. I will not do it because simply put, it isn't the right thing to do. I urge you to reconsider again who you have as sponsors, and is it really worth potentially selling out the future of hunting for a few advertisment spots ?

Thank you for your time,
Brad

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This site violates its own rules - I realize that and have since I made that last post a year or so ago. Whats ironic is none of you have realized that a few of the very "outfitters" that sponsor this site are anything but outfitters - they are canned hunt/killing groups that use the words "preserve" and "farm" liberally.

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I have no problems with high fenced hunts, with small hunting areas etc etc. If the animals are wild - if its fair chase, if its HUNTING, I got not problems with it. I don't even have problems slaughtering caged animals, what irks me is that some people have the nerve to bastardize what HUNTING is by comparing the two.

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To reply to one of your lame attempts at rebuttal....I have never sold, or allowed anyone to shoot a single deer in the pens. And no, I never let one out to be shot either.

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Then what the heck are you yapping about?

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Did you turn him in? I sure would have, even if he was a buddy.

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There are many varying reasons why some people may not have a problem with shooting an animal inside an enclosure.

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Going by some of your last statements, would it be safe to assume that you would not have a problem with high fence endeavors, as long as NOBODY called it hunting?

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Wow, you called him a POS and don't even know his circumstances ... hmmmm. He kills deer for food - probably 10-15 every year off their own land. That 12 point was a meat deer - nothing more, nothing less. With a huge deer population in their area, I got no problems with him shooting them. But its NOT hunting.

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You mean HUNTING an animal in an enclosure ?

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Like that Albia buck ... you DID know that was a game farm animal, high fence, enclosed kill ?

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So you sell the deer that Game Farms let go for people to shoot ? Isn't that like being the pimp and saying you had nothing to do with the gal doing the John ?

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