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RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

I think if they change the rule now, they might as well burn the book and close up shop.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

I commented on this before so I hope no one minds if I repeat myself.

Arthur P. , my friend, I was going to suggest that you light the match but I think it has already been lit.

A little over a year ago when the vote was taken on the let off rule the margarine for keeping the maximum let off at 65% was about 3-1. This past spring, although I can' t verify I am told that the 65% let off rule narrowly passed by a six vote margine. In last month' s Petersen' s Bowhunting Mag. Jim Dougherty (past president of P&Y) emphatically stated that the let off rule should be changed to allow higher let offs in the record book. One of our members here also stated that M.R. James has written similar thoughts in his articles.

I feel a switch in the winds at P&Y. I would not be surprised at all to see the let off rule changed next spring at the annual meeting. [:o]

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

I could really care less. The only way it would help to be included in P&Y is if I killed a world record, which isn' t going to happen in Mississippi. I think they will eventually reconsider. To get members they must follow the trends. They WILL follow the green backs. 65% plus let off bows aren' t going anywhere, people just shoot better with them.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Antler Eater, the flamethrowers have been aimed at P&Y ever since the Beatty buck. They don' t need my match. I just hate to see P&Y brought down to the level of Buckmasters. If ya know what I mean.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

I agree with Arthur for the most part. One thing though, if it comes down to doing away with a higher %let off rule........dividing into 3 classes.... traditional, compound and crossbow is not a bad idea.

My reasoning? To me, even though I shoot a 65% let off compound, any qualifying buck taken with traditional equipment is more impressive than a qualifying buck taken with a compound bow.

Furthermore, any qualifying buck taken with a compound is far more impressive than a qualifying buck taken by crossbow!

Why? Even though most shooting traditional equipment archers are excellent shots, there is a distinct advantage in most hunting situations with a compound bow, just as a crossbow shooter has a distinct advantage over both traditional and compound archers.

In regard to your subtle comment about Buckmasters Arthur, I know what you mean and agree with you!;)

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

I don' t think it should be revised. I agree with arthur p all the way. The book would then be flooded with new entries and it would take away from the prestige of club. I know there is a lot of people who shoot 65% only because they want to make the book. And if someone else wants to make the record books they should shoot 65% as well. Some states it is illegal to shoot any thing over 65%. What about them? Just my opinion though.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

I think changing the rule would cause too many problems. Just keep things the way they are.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

I like the idea of the traditional, compound, and crossbow.:D Revise the compound to 80 percent.[:o]

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

In reply to the mathews post above, I thought the mathews bows, even advertised as 70% letoff were legal in P&Y. The following is taken from their FAQ page;

If I take a Pope and Young record-book animal with my Legacy, Icon, SQ2, Q2 or Q2XL with the 70 percent cam, will this qualify for the record books?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The 70-percent straightline cam does fall within their guidelines for entry into the record books and is legal in all states. AMO measures actual let-off and doesn’t calculate hysteresis. When you draw a bow and settle in to a more comfortable shooting position in the valley of the cam, you experience less holding weight at draw.

So whats the real deal?????

AH

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

My question then is at what letoff do you feel is acceptable for P&Y....it took years, sweat and tears to get the rule revised from 50% to 65%.....seems the only people belly aching to change the rules are those who didn' t take into consideration the private club rules and bought 70% letoff bows and higher. Then, when shooting a P&Y qualifying buck......complained it didn' t count. The thing we have to remember is that P&Y is a private organization.

SO, back to the original questions....if you feel it should remain at 70%, then what about those who will complain it' s not 75%....and then what about those bow owners shooting 80%, and what about when bows reach 90%, or do we only care if our bows qualify and the hell with the next guy, then at that point, hell you might as well be shooting a crossbow and that opens up a whole nother can of worms.....!????????????

I chose to shoot a 65% letoff bow because I considered the P&Y club rules when choosing a bow because if I am fortune enough to take a animal that qualifies...I feel I owe it to the animal to enter it and honor it. To me it' s not about he hunter lucky enough to take the animal, it' s all about honoring the animal who earned his way in and offered his life to me. If you care about the book, obide by the private rules it set forth, if you don' t care about the book....

What about electronic devices attached to the bow and all the other non qualifying accessories one chooses to use...the line has to be drawn in the sand, currently it' s the letoff.....choose to follow the rules, or accept the consequences.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Really? What states would that be?

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Washington State for one.;)

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Well there NUB no need to get crabby with me but.........

Montana
Oregon
Idaho
Washington

These are the only ones that I am sure of but their may be more. I may have one of them mixed up as well. But you have the gist of it. :D:D:D

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

I just don' t think that 80% is going to help anyone get a P&Y Buck. I' m sure not going to switch as the 65% shoot much better for me. And it doesn' t bother me one bit if they raise it to 80%. The idea that more folks will have bows that are P&Y legal and as a result will consider the notion of fair chase as a result is IMO much more important. Hell if it would just turn one more slob into a consciencious hunter, it would be worth it in my view.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

High letoff, draw-lock devices, increasingly faster bows, etc. all dilute book-recorded accomplishments; swaying from what was once " what archers are able to do with simple equipment" to " what technology is allowing archers to do" .

The 80% rule is but one of many I feel P & Y should stick to their guns.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

IMHO, I beleive if they don' t make some changes in the near future, the organization will begin to shrink in members. WHY would that happen you ask. Well, for the most part new comers to the sport of bow hunting are not starting out with traditional gear, they start out with the newest high tech. bow on the market, which in most cases isn' t going to have 65% let-off. So, over time, the old die hards will simply do that, die off, and the club will slowly shrink because of lack of new members. That' s MHO! For what it' s worth, not that I really give a hoot what they do. I' ll keep shooting 80% let off and keep hanging my mounts on the wall, no one needs to know a darn thing about them. I take much pride in taking large antlered critters, and don' t see any advantage in posting the size of any of them in a book for others to see!

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

People that don' t give a hoot what P&Y does falls into two categories. First, they are ignorant of all the work P&Y has done, for their benefit over the years, and continues to do, for which the newbies are just as indebted to the club as the old timers are. OR they are simply selfcentered ingrates.

If it weren' t for Pope and Young Club, there are a lot of states that either wouldn' t have an archery deer season or it would have taken many years longer for them to put one in place. P&Y isn' t perfect and there are problems with cheaters lying their way into the records book. I' m not a member. But I respect P&Y and am very grateful for what they' ve done on my behalf, as a bowhunter. Abiding by their rules of fair chase is something I feel compelled to do, out of gratitude if for no other reason.

But I' m rapidly becoming one of the old timers, if I' m not already there. I just hate to see what this techno whiz equipment is doing to archery hunting. BowTech says they are ' taking the arch out of archery.' I think a lot of other companies can say the same thing with their products. Ripping the very heart and soul out of the sport.

Just my old, worn out opinion, of course.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Hell, lets just restrict the archery seasons to traditional only:D. Just had to do that;).

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

totally agree. although it' s no big deal to me, because I doubt I' ll ever see, let alone kill a P/Y buck here in south Ar. but I think it' s a little rediculos for a club to say you can' t enter your buck in our book because you were holdin back a few lbs less than what our rule allows.[:' (]

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Funny, this let off thing. After talking to several hunters locally, most of the higher than 65% letoff archers are newbies. Many walk into an archery shop and the dealer automatically sets them up with a 75% or 80% bow.

Most of the bows made today are advertised at higher letoffs and some new archers don' t even know what the letoff differences are. Fact is, most compound bows come with an optional letoffs.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

IMO if they do away with the let off rule they mise as well do away with the high fence rule.

Leave things the way they are.
The system has worked well so far.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

They need to change the rule for the simple sake of keeping up with technology.
We as a country need to keep advancing not staying in the old days. If they changed the rule bow companies would probably even quit making bows with 65% let-off. The demand is for higher now and it doesn' t change a thing as far as taking a deer that qualifies. You still have to find a buck that big and you still have to make the shot.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

My bow is set at 65% let off, so I really do not care if they change the let off rule or not. My question to those who are opposed to any changes is: has the 65% let off rule always been set at 65% or was it once 50% or less? Has a compound bow always been allowed or was it restricted to " traditional" bows?

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Amen to that!! I hate to hear people pop off and say they don' t give a hoot about the P&Y or other type orgs. Don' t get me wrong, I' m not a member, I' ve never shot a P&Y deer and probably won' t.(but I hope I do.lol) But I do respect the club for helping bow hunters make great strides in many areas. To me P&Y and B&C are the " Hall of Fame" of deer hunting. Why would anyone not like the Hall of Fame? Sure there are a few bucks in there that shouldn' t be, sure there are some crooked hunters with bucks in the books, HOWEVER, there are some people in any sport' s Hall of Fame that should be there. That in itself does not make the whole Hall of Fame bad. Let me take it a step further. There are alot of guys out there who say " I' d never enter my buck in that stuipd book anyway." Fine, that is your choice, however, the book isn' t about you, it' s about the amazing deer that God created. We know most of the famous bucks by the last name of the hunter who killed them, but we normally don' t know the story of the hunter or know what he looks like. We know the story of the buck. Sorry to get off on a rant but I wanted to add to what Arthur said.

My opinion on the let-off rule? I' m undecided right now. It' s a tuff call. Obviously, the sport is moving in a direction that is not in line with the current rules of the P&Y. Are hunter' s with 80% let-off unethical? I think not. I do however, see why the club has rules and why they make sense. I guess we have to ask ourselves some tuff questions. The way it stands today, I would say that a very large percentage (if not the majority) of new bows sold are 80% let-off. As someone else pointed out, most new bowhunters end up with an 80% let-off bow, for some reason, which is fine. So does the book follow the trend of the sport or does it stick by it' s old rules and start to take in less and less bucks into the " Hall of Fame" every year because most hunters don' t follow it' s rules? The loser' s here aren' t the hunter' s that kill a big deer with 80% let-off but the rest of the hunting world is because without a buck being scored as a P&Y and gaining some " fame" , most of us will never get to see or appreciate this big deer.

Just some of my rambling thoughts. And for the record, my bow is 80% let-off. I wanted 65% but I was getting the bow at cost from the manufacturer and I was not going to be picky.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

I would hate to think that hunters have reached the point that they would condemn those who shoot 80% let-off from being able to have a great buck scored and maybe become tops in the record book. I also noticed someone else talk bad about Buckmasters, what is wrong with the BTR scoring system ? It doesn' t discriminate against any let-offs or deduct from nature has given a deer' s rack.
P&Y will change or go under in the near future but what about all those they have already turned away?

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

That' s right, Howler. And that is just one of the problems. P&Y seems bound and determined to make this a traditional vs. modern debate. Maybe the idea of a separate record book for traditional vs. compound should be considered. Then at least some of the whining can stop.

P&Y was dragged kicking and screaming to go from 50% letoff years back. Before that, all kinds of folks griped about compound bows period, Fred Bear included, although a prohibition of those would have never flown. Now they have painted themselves into a corner with this silly letoff rule and some in the organization are trying to find a graceful way out.

Amen!

Who knows? Maybe Boone and Crocket should implement a rule disallowing rifles that fire bullets with speeds of greater than 2,000 FPS, or scopes beyond 2X. That way, they can defend the " purity" of the older records, like the James Jordan buck. ;)

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

There' s your answer. If you want to shoot that kind of bow, then haul your carcass over there and let them score it. Ever wonder why the Buckmasters world record doesn' t enjoy the same prestige (and potential product endorsement money) that P&Y' s world records do?

Isn' t that what this is all REALLY about?

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Arthur, I usually agree with what you say, however on this one I feel you and others are in a traditional vs modern argument. And the comparisons of 80% let off to a cross bow is ridiculous. I have a 75% letoff bow b/c I can shoot it better, which is what it is REALLY SUPPOSED to be about. Would you agree that going from traditional to compounds it MUCH more of a step than going from 65% to 80%? I really just don' t understand the argument against it. Yes, it is easier to shoot than a recurve or perhaps a 65% letoff, but a peep sight is easier to shoot than without, sights are easier than bare bow and so on. However, none of these items makes it " easy" to harvest a deer, just increases you odds of a good shot. The fact that you were a good of enough hunter to get the deer within range and then excute the shot is what really matters. Also, I' ve have heard everyone of the traditional guys on here saying they can shoot with traditional just as good as they can with compound. So if that is true, whats the handicap? The fact that it requires more practice? How does it factor in at the moment of truth when your putting yourself within range of a trophy buck and taking the shot? Its simply a traditional vs modern argument. End of discussion.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

That paragraph makes the top 10 list of the most IDIOTIC statements ever on display here!

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Belle Island, the guys trying to make it into a traditional vs modern debate are the ones that are wanting the rule changed and are trying to discredit the entire idea of keeping things as is.

OBVIOUSLY I agree that going from trad to a compound is a bigger step than going from a 65% letoff to an 80% letoff. How much bigger step will it be from an 80% letoff to a DrawLock? How much bigger step would it be from the DrawLock to the crossbow? How much bigger step would it be from the crossbow to one of those arrow firing rifles? From there to ???

It doesn' t take much imagination to see that all those little baby steps can walk us right out of an archery season.

About your 75% letoff bow... I' d bet most everyone can shoot a scoped .270 better than they can any bow, right? Since they shoot a rifle better, does that mean we should want P&Y to accept gun kills too?

Bowfanatic, thanks ever so much for you input. Have you got an intelligent response to it or were you content to try and top it?

Actually, I guess there is a third group that I should have mentioned that come to the forums and try to discredit the entire organization. Those that have a profit motive based on something that does meet P&Y' s rules. Canned hunts. Equipment that is disallowed. Stuff like that.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

They need to change it, that rule is dated. get with the times & let the hunters enjoy the equipment they want to shoot & still have a shot at the books. More & more hunters could care about the books now days & would rather shoot an 80% bow.

P&Y - get with it, even Chuck Adams is pushing for this old rule to be changed!

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

;) I have owned compounds in several letoffs (40%, 50%, 65%, 80%), over the years. I am presently hunting with a 65% letoff bow (because I like the way it feels and shoots AND for p&y reasons). For the experienced shooter I don' t think there is any difference in the shootability for 65% or 80% letoff. I have nothing against 80% letoff, it may help newbies and marginal shooters wound less game(or not)[X(]. Although i personally think that the differences in effectiveness in the woods may be small, when you' re talkin rules, you have to draw a line somewhere. 65% letoff is as good a place as any to draw that line. The Pope & Young club catches a lot of grief over it and people say they are behind the times,but when they set the limit at 65% everybody was shooting 50% letoff bows. The limit has to be set in stone because if it moves where will it end up?lasers? nightvision? backpack missles?.......



>>>---DAVIDP---SILERCITY,NC--->;)

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

kimandavid, and others with similar responses are correct...IMHO. The last few years have brought light years of technology that should really have some sort of limits. I agree that the various clubs are beneficial and I belong to several, but the game of inches in deer hunting is de-focusing many hunters off of what the sport is actually all about.

I would take an old narly rack with tons of mass that just missed the books over a clean thin racked buck that did make it. To each his own, right! :-)

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Well Arthur, read into what I said how ever you want. When I said that I don' t give a hoot what they do, It' s true that I don' t give a hoot what they do on this topic, 65% or 80%, I don' t really care. You must be filling a little insecure yourself knowing that you are in the minority on this subject. By the way, I do have a clue what the club has done for bow hunting, they have made killing big antlered and big skull capped animals big money business. Oh, I can' t say that is all they have done, but what else are they known for. Huh, I can' t remember. My mind must be slipping me, you know, me being an selfcentered ingrate and all, and now I' m loosing my mind too. Let' s see who is for changing the rule. Chuck Adams and M.R. James for starters. If P&Y wants to stay a small private org., heck, that' s thier choice. But I beleive that they could do a heck of a lot of good for the sport if they had more money(more members), but until they except change, this selfcentered ingrate will watch from the side lines as they dwindle into an even smaller private org. Good hunting to all this fall, especially those with 80% let off bows;)

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Arthur, I agree, a line needs to be drawn somewhere, but where is the question. Sure, a drawlock and crossbow should not be allowed. You must have to actually draw the bow. There' s no comparison b/t those two and an 80% letoff bow.

For some reason they think that with higher letoff bows you can hold the bow at full draw for long periods of time while waiting on the game to offer you a perfect shot. I know with my 75% bow I can' t pull it back and wait five minutes for the buck to get within range and offer a great shot. I' ve had many 65% and 80% let off bows, and its really not that big of a difference.

By the way, when I said I could care less about P&Y, I meant this rule. Obviously I do appreciate and acknowledge the work they' ve done for bow hunting. However, when I' m trying out different bows, the last thing that enters my mind is whether or not it is P&Y legal, I' m going for the best fit. The rule will change, it' s all about the bottom line.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Ha ha ha! The day companies quit making 65% or lower let off available bows will be the day some will return to the stick bow, including me!

The only people whining about P&Y not allowing bucks into the book are those shooting higher than 65% let off bows. Pope and Young is not destroying itself, the people who do not meet their requirements are! Play by the rules or don' t play.

Why should Pope and Young change because the manufacturers change? This would be a moot point if the mfgs. never made a high let off bow. The one and only reason they do is to sell bows!

Belle, according to you there is not much difference between 65% and 80%. Then why don' t you shoot a 65% let off bow to meet their rule?

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Howler, so many off the wall comments. Where to start...

We' ll start here. Who says I' m in the minority? Besides that, if I in any way felt insecure, I wouldn' t be on this forum stating my views.

If you really don' t give a hoot what P&Y does on this issue, then why did you even open this thread and get involved in it???

P&Y hasn' t made killing big heads a money making business. That' s the work of bozos that are in the business of making money and know full well how human greed works to put dollars in their pockets. They don' t give a hoot about the future of bowhunting. As long as they can line their wallets, they' re going to do it. If it kills off bowhunting, they' ll just go looking for the next victim. But if that' s all you think you know of P&Y, then I have to repeat that you don' t know the first thing about what they' ve done for bowhunting.

I agree, lets look at who is in favor of changing the rule. Chuck Adams and M.R. James. Chuck and M.R. both make their living directly from the industry. Remember me saying something about profit motive?

There are just as many that thrive on human laziness and the current obsession with instant gratification as there are that thrive on greed. They know that if they can make a product to take some challenge out of a challenging pastime, they' ll sell a buttload of that product. How many products have come out in the past 10 years that fit that description and have really become popular? How about scentlock suits, high letoff bows, carbon arrows, mechanical broadheads, designer camoflage, fiber optic sights, lazer sights, holographic sights, heat seeking game finders.... Need I continue or do you get the idea?

P&Y is a small private, not for profit club. What the heck do you want them to do? Become a major corporation with stock traded on NYSE?? We' ve already got enough of these profit oriented ' clubs' that bilk hunters out of millions of dollars a year don' t we? Before you go saying that P&Y could do some good if they had more members, I suggest you educate yourself about the club and find out what they really do.

Here' s a good place to start:

www.pope-young.org

I' m not arguing traditional vs modern. That argument was lost 30 some years ago when the compound got legalized. But I AM arguing that totally discarding all of bowhunting' s challenges and traditions in the interest of buying a better chance to shoot a deer with a bow is WRONG.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Buckeyebuckhntr, Montana has an 80% max. let-off. and says that variations in draw length and or draw weight can effect the percent of let-off on compound bows.
Its kinda like an unforceable law.
I was told if you shoot a P/Y with a bow that has more let off than 65% or if a game warden cheques your bow for the allowable maxamium draw weight , all you have to do is " not" pull back all the way, therfore decreaseing the maximum draw weight. CHEAT.!!!
Txhunter I had the moduals changed from 75% to 65% on my TRX, so that I can qualify for a nice record class P/Y or state record, but I do know that my bow meets the critera without playing games.
If you can' t play by the rules then don' t play and enter it in the B/C where they accept roadkills. Bobby ;)

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

WOW! What a debate. The ones " whining" about needing to go to 80% are the ones who shoot over 65% (lightning strikes) The ones who DON' T want it changed are the ones shooting 65% or less (WOW again!)
Couple of questions for those for and agains' t.
1: if you shoot 65% why do you CARE what I shoot, and if MY buck should be allowed in? YOU didn' t shoot it, I did! And I had to hold my bow at full draw (point being even at 99% let off, soon as you stop holding, it shoots!), and put some blades into the vitals (aim).
2: Why would you REQUIRE someone to have to hold more weight at full draw? Seems like you might be able to make a better shot if you could hold the bow longer and didn' t feel like you HAD to shoot the animal because you couldn' t hold back any longer. WHY wouldn' t we WANT clean kills?
3: Do P&Y buck care WHAT % let off you shoot? It almost sounds like you' d think the big bucks come running to 80% let off bows! You STILL have to hunt, see the animal and draw hold and aim. longbow/recurve/compound all the same.
4: would it be ethical to tell people you can' t use sights? A release? aluminum or carbon arrows? Do we REALLY want the average hunter out there trying to shoot like that? NO! then why can' t those who CHOOSE to shoot 80% be in " The book" as well?
5: Why is P&Y " THE" book? (as compared to Buckmasters) I' ll answer that...P&Y was there FIRST! NOT because they (the hunters in the P&Y book) did ANYTHING more impressive than the guys in the Buckmasters book.
6: What is technology " doing" to archery that some " hate to see" ? You don' t like to see archery companies stay in business? Must not, otherwise we' d all buy (or make) a longbow or recurve, and some cedar arrows and be happy forever (LOL)
Simply put, the P&Y book is outdated, and restricts honest, ethical archers from posting magnificent animals they worked long and hard to harvest. Don' t like 80% let off bows? DON' T BUY ONE!!!
IF (HUGE IF) I would ever take a P&Y buck, all the scouting, all the practice, the fighting off buck fever after perhaps calling the monster and making that perfect shot would be concidered " not good enough" to some (P&Y and those who like the rules cause it matches what THEY shoot). To them, I ask who IS the self centered one?