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RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

I ask you guys, how many of you were aware of The Rule before you bought your high letoff bow? Why did you ignore The Rule and buy that high letoff bow? Why, now that you consciously ignored The Rule, do you think P&Y needs to bow to your wishes and change it?

Do you think a major league baseball player should be able to use a corked bat to set a home run record? Should the league change the rules to allow it after someone did set the record with a corked bat?

Baseball, golf, tennis... They all have equipment restrictions and those sports are still as popular as ever. Golf has some pretty intense restrictions and is getting more and more popular all the time. Why aren' t you guys accusing them of not keeping up with the times?

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

PY rules are like the 10 Commandments...obey them and you may achieve paradise....disobey them and live eternity in an unquenchable fire.[>:][>:][>:] I respect PY and their rules. The line has been drawn, deal with it.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

I shoot 65% for 2 reasons:

1-I shoot better than with a high letoff bow, and 2-If I ever happen to connect with a P&Y class animal, I' m covered if I choose to enter it.

I say leave it as it is...gotta draw the line somewhere. JMO.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

If you want to win a Winston Cup race you have to drive a Winston Cup car. If you want to compete in the the Tour De France you have to ride a bike that meets UCI standards. If you want to enter your trophy in the P&Y book you have to play by their rules. IMO that' s fine.

Maybe just make categories so that we can see ALL of the great game animals out there. I just don' t like having a " book" that excludes so many great animals. They are the trophies not the dude who shot them. The animals deserve the recognition. So what if someone found it dead in the field. Put it in and put down that it was " found dead" If someone shot it with a crossbow put it in the Crossbow section. 90% let off? that' s cool it goes into the " compound 90%" section. Tradtional? same thing. How about road kill?

How about a section for " poached" Put the mug shot of the guys that did it. let everyone know that these violators are out there and their fellow hunters can see what kind of " sportsman" they are!

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

VERY good point.


If I shoot a P&Y deer witha 65% 60# bow holding 21# what' s the difference if I' m shooting a 75% 80# bow holding 20#? 1# difference. Doesn' t make a whole world of difference does it? For the record, I' ve killed several deer (none P&Y) with my Buckmaster set at 86# with 75% let-off -- that' s 21.5# holding weight. That' s what this whole deal is based on....let-off....holding weight. So, some of you are saying that because I was shooting 75% I can' t enter a buck....even though I was holding more wieght than average. I have heard that 60# is average....can' t back that up though. Could you all please tell me what the big deal is? I don' t see the massive difference in the numbers.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Some of you are right.......I haven' t seen any major difference between the 65% and 80% . I don' t think the 80% gives any huge advantage. But that goes both ways......if the 65% is really not much harder for you to hold back ,then why don' t you use one? I would if this issue was that important to me.

I do have to agree with Jason N though.......I personally feel like some percentage of draw weight vs. holding weight would be a better measurement .

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

I have no problem about people being passionate when it comes to bowhunting. Positive energy channelled in the right direction can be a good thing.

You don' t have to kill a record book deer to be a member of P&Y. By the same token, killing a record book buck having it officially measured, signing an affidavit and paying the $25.00 entry fee to be listed in the book doesn' t make one a member either. If a person feels strongly about the rules the club makes or where they draw a line in the sand on certain issues than you should join the club and let your voice be heard. Get in there and lobby for the position you want to see endorsed, otherwise you are just blowing hot air into the ecology.

I am not a member so don' t get the idea that I am on a membership drive here :). I guess what I am trying to say is, if one is not a member why get bent out of shape over issues you can' t control?

If getting a buck entered in the book is important to you, (certainly, nothing wrong with that) than learn what the rules are and that is what you play by. If it is different next fall, then those are the rules you play by at that time, no big deal. I can' t think of a single sport where certain rules haven' t been changed over the years.

I think the very fact that we have these discussions at least twice a year speaks for the prestige of the club. Currently it is the " record book of choice" to be in if your a bowhunter. The best example of that statement could be the Zaft buck. He was all set up to reap the rewards of a " World Record" bow kill. Guess what, he got his wish. He owns the title to the " World Record" typical bow kill. However it is for ' Buck Masters' not P&Y and obviously the payoff isn' t going to be the same.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

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" Now think of the advancement of modern bowhunting equipment represented by a slow moving turtle (walking down a football field). Perhaps no single small step the turtle takes is worth noticing, but given enough time this slow-moving creature will reach the far end of the football field. And when we finally take the time to look around to check on the turtle' s progress, it may be too late to change it' s course."

----

An excerpt from the article " Pope and Young Equipment Restrictions" by Dave Holt in the Fifth Edition of Bowhunting Records of North American Big Game.

Good article and everyone that feels strongly on this issue, one way or the other, should read it.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

I knew the rule before I purchased my bow! My bow falls within P&Y guidelines! I know full well what P&Y has done for bowhunting! I could still give a rats behind if they change their letoff rule or not! So according to you I must be a " self centered ingrate"



How the hell does anyone even attempt to make an intelligent response to such a shallow grade schoolish comment?

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Sticks and stones, BF. Sticks and stones. But when you simply deride someone else' s opinion without explanation, it does make one wonder whether you have anything to say on the subject worth listening to.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

If P & Y dont change the rules somebody will just start another organization with different rules. Its not like the got the market cornered do they? If they dont want to change that is fine it is up to them. What makes them the king of the hill?

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

So Arthur, do you really beleive that M.R. and Chuck would be reaping any more benefits by having the rule changed. Do you suppose they are both wanting to buy new bows that have higher let-off? NOT. I' d guess that they both believe that the P&Y club would have many new members join if the rule was changed. Actaully, I don' t have to guess about M.R., he has stated that that is one of his motives for the change. Now, if more members were to join, than they could increase thier annual $80,000 grant money by who knows how much. And that would benefit all hunters. It might even bring some hunters together, now that wouldn' t be all bad, would it!

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

cyberbuck....do they have the market cornered? Well in a word....YES! PY is the authority, PY has been there since the beginning. A buck as awesome as Zaft' s buck went from being a potential million dollar buck as a PY record but then dwindled to nothing when the PY panel ruled it was not. So now it' s the Buckmaster' s record I hear? Who cares? But you make a good point...if you don' t like PY and their rules then make up your own club with it' s own rules but you will be hard pressed to ever carry the weight that PY does.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Howler, I don' t remember Chuck ever doing anything that didn' t have a little kickback for his own wallet. But, he' s making a living at it so more power to him. What manufacturers is he working for these days and what are they trying to sell?

M.R. James, well, maybe he' s on the up and up about it. Alterior motives are pretty easily disguised and I' m not the blindly trusting sort. He' s a voting P&Y member and I' m not, so I don' t count. I just hope he and the others of like mind listen to the people that are in favor of leaving well enough alone.

As far as membership, if they change the rules and start allowing animals taken with anything that shoots an arrow they could pick up even more members. Do you think if they did relax the standards that they' d pick up as many members as they potentially stand to lose?

Also, when you start relaxing the standards, then you lose prestige. That' s why the Buckmasters world records don' t mean diddly compared to P&Y. If those records did mean as much, then everybody and their dog would be entering their animals in Buckmasters, P&Y would be totally irrelevant and we wouldn' t even be having this discussion.

But P&Y is NOT irrelevant, we ARE having this discussion and I hope they keep things as is so they don' t become irrelevant.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

I think it shouldn' t matter. A bow hunter is a bow hunter in my books. I am proud to say I am a bow hunter and have bigger and better challenges than the average gun hunter. Don' t get me wrong I do hunt with a gun but enjoy the challenge of bow hunting more. As for cross bow, I can' t comment. Here where I am from they are classed as a gun and couldn' t count here. I think P&Y is a bow hunters catigory and as long as you bow hunt you should be able to enter.

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RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Most people would probably drop their load if they found out the bows they hunt with that are less than 30" long don' t meet the rules either. But it doesn' t say in the rules if that 30" is axle to axle or total length, including wheels.

You' re saying all those things are unfair? You better slide into your flame retardent underwear because I think you just took the flamethrowers off my butt. THANKS! :D

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Arthur: WHO ARE YOU KIDDING?!

But that is actually a great commentary on why P&Y is acting like a bunch of blockheads who want the " old days" to come back.

But first, with regard to golf...

Golf is probably the most lenient with regard to letting technological advances into the sport. We have gone from wound balls that did not even used to be perfectly round a few years ago (Ben Hogan told a story of having to find round ones in a box of a dozen). We had no synthetic materials, no titanium covers with liquid cores. A wood was just that...WOOD...not oversized titanium. No graphite shafts, no weighting of drivers so that the center of gravity was lower allowing for a higher, longer shot, no perimeter-weighted irons so that shots hit off center can travel a long ways down the fairway, no long putters, no mallet putters....need I go on? Oh, that' s right. They still don' t allow tour players to wear shorts! Now THERE is a rule maintaining the sanctity of golf! A recent article in golf digest pointed out that most tour pros now hit drives AN AVERAGE of 23 yards longer than a few years ago: Vjay Singh hits his about 28 yards longer, Nick Price about 25 yards longer, just to name a couple mentioned in the article. The reason? 90% of it due to technology getting better!

As far as " intense regulations" ...well...if you call that intense, then I propose that P&Y get just as " intense" . You' re right, Arthur, golf is getting " more and more popular" because they don' t enact a bunch of silly rules about equipment to make things harder. Now a lot of people who would have given up on the sport because they aren' t blessed with super hand/eye coordination are able to play a decent round of golf due to forgiving equipment, instead of being frustrated. THAT is why the sport is getting more popular! If P&Y ran the PGA, I' m sure we sould not have ever seen Big Bertha drivers, or any other big-faced club. Perimeter weighting? Hmmm! Sounds like a crossbow...oops! ...I mean, unsporting.

And I' m sure had the PGA acted that way, golf would NOT be as popular as it is today.

Mahly13: Bingo!!! So where are the defenders of " fair chase" at P&Y on those issues?

Bowdacious, you put it best:

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Personally I really don' t care but I wouldn' t mind it going up to 75%. Then that would make my Darton Maverick legal P%Y that is.

Brian

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

You' ve been around here long enough to know damn well what my opinion is of P&Y letoff restrictions! And long enough to know that this very subject is kicked around here at least three times every year!

For the record.....record books should be about the animal , not the archer!JMHO!

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Bowfanatic, Bravo my friend bravo.

Amen to that.

Brian

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

I had a post here, but never mind. It' s pointless to continue. Y' all enjoy your brave new world.

While you can.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

You can' t use a " corked bat" or illegal drivers because it gives an undeniable UNfair advantage.
I knew the rule before I bought MY bow...and I bought MY bow be cause I LIKED it. The LAST thing on MY mind when dropping $500+ for a new bow is " will it meet P&Y rules?"
How the H#LL does letting in 80% let off LOWER the prestige. Are the ANIMALS somehow smaller? Was there less scouting? was the 80% let off bow MORE accurate?!?!?!? With 80% let off can you shoot a buck in the foot and have it drop over dead? Or does it leave a glow in the dark blood trail?
Of course not. " Relaxing" the EQUIPMENT standard doesn' t change the HUNT or the ANIMAL.
Obviously, you HATE 80% let off bows for SOME unknown reason. What it is I have no idea. Maybe you just want technology to stop, I don' t know.
What I DO know is that no matter the bow (Fred Bear took Tiger at 90 yards without ANY let off) you still need to be in range, and hit the animal with a lethal shot. And even an 90% let off bow must be held back until you release the arrow for it to work (i.e. not a draw lock or crossbow).
P&Y thanx for what you have done for the sport...but take your rules and shove ' em...I' ll post MINE in Buckmasters I guess

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Oh this younger generation of instant gratification I want it now give it to me wha wha wha...no respect for traditional foundations on which this sport was constructed.[:' (]

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

For those who think that high letoffs don' t give you an unfair advantage......then why not switch to 65% so you can legally enter " the book" if you want? If you don' t want to enter " the book" , then do not do so....its very simple.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Good point CM...it' s that simple or enter your 99% letoff trophy in Jackie Bushmywacker' s trophy book along with a bunch of other yahoos.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

My thought exactly. No need for me to elaborate.

Did any of you supporting the 65% rule read the article. I will parifrase a statment made.
80% of the new bows sold do not meet the 65% rule. P&Y has eliminated 4/5 of there potential members who are archers.

I am also going to look at buckmasters.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Totally INCORRECT. 4/5 of their potential members eliminated themselves. The rule was around LONG before this high letoff crap and they bought those bows anyway.

This argument is not about honoring the animal. That' s a lot of manure. It' s about a bunch of guys that want to bring P&Y down to their level because they are not good enough to get an animal in with equipment that meets the current rules.

Bottom line, it' s easier to bring everyone else down to your level rather than strive to achieve.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Whatever, samantics (sp?), glass half full or half empty? Both are correct just a mater of prospective. The fact is 4/5ths of the archery hunters are not a potential part of P&Y.

But, the point is, to say a person with a 80% bow only has an advantage over someone with a 65% bow using a scent-lok suit, sexual attractant, release, carbor, mechanical, bait-pile, ect is just silly.

If P&Y doesn' t want the largest animal taken with archery equipment to be in their record books, it is their chose. But their records are an inacuate reprecentation of the archery killed animals. AND THAT IS A FACT.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Which was first, the chicken or the egg?

In this case, it' s not semantics and the rule was here first. Matt McPherson is the one that decided to put a high letoff bow on the market way back in the early 90' s when he owned McPherson Archery, but still several years after the rule was passed. It was meant strictly for target shooting and turkey hunting. It was never meant as a big game hunting bow. At least, that' s what the advertising copy said.

But, guys that like that speed and willingly overbow themselves to get it, flocked to the high letoff bows and the other manufacturers had to follow suit with their own versions to maintain market share. And, sure enough, they started hunting big game with them. Now, just 10 years or so later, they think they should have the same honor of placing their name in the Book as someone that has abided by P&Y' s rules all along.

Since I' m already mud here, I' ll go even further and say what I really think about this. What I' d like to know, if Beatty had taken that buck with an old Bear Whitetail Hunter, would there be any of this outrage over the rule? Of course not. But he took it with a Mathews (hmmm... Matt McPherson AGAIN) and the Mathews cult has gone bonkers over it. And those of you not in the cult have fallen into formation and goose stepped right along with them.

Of course P&Y would like to have the largest buck ever taken with a bow in the Book. Actually, to my point of view, they do have. When you go back the the Beatty buck it was taken with a ' bowhunting shooting system' that does not meet the definition of a bow by their standards. The Zaft buck? Didn' t make world record because of scoring deductions by the official scoring committee, not because of what letoff the bow had.

You know, since it was in Ohio, Beatty could just as easily have been shooting a crossbow when he took that deer. How many think it should have been entered if it had been a Horton instead of a Mathews?

Naturally, that' s just the way I see things from where I stand.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

I shoot 65% you may shoot 75% 80% etc etc. That does not make one a better bow hunter or an inadequate hunter. I will respect you as a hunter as long as you follow the game laws. It dosent matter to me if you are a x bow hunter rifle hunter whether you use a recurve or an 80% compound. If one chooses to shoot a higher letoff that is ones choice and that is great, I wish you luck as well as all other game law following hunters. If P&Y changes their rules then so be it. I believe if you chose to buy a bow that does not qualify under their currrent rules then you have no reason to complain. If you want to have the oppertunity to enter an animal in p&y you must obide to their rules and currently that is 65%. I know if I am fortunate enough to harvest a P&Y animal I would be able to enter if I so chose to.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

" If you are hunting " FAIR CHASE" and abiding by all the rules and regulations of the state wildlife dept. and kill a record class buck, then it should be elgible for entry into the book that has been established as the standard for recording record class deer........
If the P&Y club doesn' t want to change the let-off rule, because they just don' t want to change it FINE....but, don' t tell me the reason is because its " an unfair advantage" ...there in lies the problem. If they had some sound reason for the rule I could understand it, sorry the reason they gave me just doesn' t fly!
I am very grateful for the Pope and Young Club, and the fine job it has done over the years preserving and recording world class animals, so we can all admire and aspire. I hope their commitment to ethics in hunting will override their stubborness to hold on to the past....... "

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I noticed that the above statement was easily passed over but is prob. the best post in the bunch. I don' t know who really thinks that a 80% letoff will allow you to shoot more record book bucks than a 65% but if you do then you are mistaken. I never had a buck care which bow I was shooting. As for the change if it comes about, many of you are right the Beatty buck being shot with a high let off bow will be the reason why the change is made. Not because they want the biggest buck in thier book but because they don' t want to lose out on the $$$$!!!!

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" Since I' m already mud here, I' ll go even further and say what I really think about this. What I' d like to know, if Beatty had taken that buck with an old Bear Whitetail Hunter, would there be any of this outrage over the rule? Of course not. But he took it with a Mathews (hmmm... Matt McPherson AGAIN) and the Mathews cult has gone bonkers over it. And those of you not in the cult have fallen into formation and goose stepped right along with them. "

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Seems to me the same organization you are defending is falling right in behind as well. They don' t want to lose out on the money. They know how many members they are losing by keeping the rule. They know how much money that is and they want it. Do I blame them? Hell no, go get it because they will use it in an american way to line the pockets of thier board members, along with doing some good for us hunters. But don' t be stupid about the arguments because it all comes down to the money and how much goes into thier pockets. P&Y are not any better or worse than any other organization out there right now. They want to make money and that is the bottom line. If you don' t believe that then just wait for the vote and you will know then. There is no reason to change the rule if they were not in it for the money.

You know what I don' t blame them.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

You' re right, SA Iowa. I think they will change the rule. I am not going to like it, at all, but that' s their choice to make. All I can do is hope the voting members in favor of holding the line read some of these kinds of threads and know they have support and aren' t alone.

If, or should I say when, they change the rule they might as well go ahead and change another thing and start accepting crossbow kills, because that' s the next step. And we can all get ready for the guys like the one that started the ' Crossbow Season' thread, because they' re going to be right in there with us. P&Y have helped lobby to keep the crossbow at bay because of their rules. When the rule goes, they will have absolutely ZIP left in credibility.

Lone Star Bowhunters Association here in Texas dumped their version of the 65% rule for the same reason and I let membership expire. My money and support goes to my state traditional bowhunting organization now, Traditional Bowhunters of Texas.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

I' m sure when Pope & Young changed the rules to let compound bows in or when they changed the rules to let the 65% let off in, people had these same discussions/arguments. The difference now is we have places like this to discuss it!

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

I dont know how many of you saw it, but they just ran an article about this topic in Petersen' s Bowhunting. For those of you who dont read the Magazine I' d be happy to type it up and post it, just let me know...

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Just in case anyone forgot.......all of the magazines published have advertisers. Would someone please tell me the magazine article that " says" 80% of the new bows sold are 80% letoff? In my locale that is NOT the case!!!!!! Far from it! Besides.....how many know that many if not most of the bows sold with high letoffs also include an easy way to change their letoff to 65% OR come with additional modules to change to 65%? Many archers that I know purchase a bow, then either change it or have their dealer do it for them in a press.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

I should mention that the article was by Jim Dougherty, past President and Director of P&Y. ;)

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

I' d like to read it! Especially from his (Jim Dougherty) perspective.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Classic example of what turns me off about this entire P&Y letoff issue! The Beatty buck is an awesome display of a true monarch of the whitetail buck! But yet , because he (Beatty) wasn' t in compliance with P&Y rules , the buck isn' t recognized. This is where I draw the line! How is this respecting the animal?